Post-Game Talk: Well, uh... MLB opening day in 12 days! (Oh, and the Habs obviously lost. 2-0 vs Chicago)

[CauZuki]

It may come as a shock to note that they have a solid foundation (of two whole players) but gutted their roster of its supporting staff - making them a garbage fire yet again. That’s what happens when you do a complete rebuild without leaving leaders abd veterans on the team like some here want by trading away Byron, Tatar, Petry, Weber, Price.

We only have a handful of wins more than Buffalo this season , so we may not be that far from a dumpster fire even with all our "quality depth"...
Price/Weber aren't going to get better with age (pro athletes rarely do...) and Buffalo has elite/franchise pieces at all key positions.
I remember last year when people were chirping me because I was pointing towards Carolina and their amazing youth and I was told how tanking hasn't helped them. How are they doing now?

Buffalo isn't as far as you think from being a very decent young team , they certainly showed this year that they aren't as bad as your are making it seem. Habs are faltering just as much as the Sabres did and they apparently have a "tire fire" , what's our excuse?

 

[Habs Halifax]

Because you can't win the cup without elite talent. Just because the center line is better than it was last year, doesn't mean it's good enough to win a cup. It isn't.

This team lacks elite talent and the only high end guys they have are guys over the age of thirty. Meaning they are likely not going to be high end by the time that the team gets the holes plugged that you see now.

It's time to move on from Price and Weber the same way we moved on from Pacioretty.

I'd gladly move on from Price and Weber if we got the return we deserved. However, I doubt it. Price also has a NMC so we need to be very careful with that.

Deals fell apart when Bergevin was shopping Subban and he settled on Weber. I just don't see many teams giving us the return we think can get. If we had a hard time getting full value on Subban, we will have a hard time with Price and Weber.

I don't believe you are on board with a liquidated trade value rigth? Kind of how the Leafs liquidated Kessel and Phaneuf?

 

[Runner77]

Back to our sheep, ouch.

It’s not meant to be taken literally. It’s a Franco expression meant to evoke going back to the thread’s subject matter.

 

[CauZuki]

So the direction of waving the chaff on defense and getting three actual NHL centers in one year ISN'T a clear direction? All the while keeping our prospects?

In this year we moved galchenyuk for a winger who can actually play center in the nhl. Moved mcmopey for a winger prospect AND tatar. Didn't send kotka down and gave him protected minutes in the NHL ( finally) but and don't have current cap or looming cap problem.

We are in a much much better place now last year. We solved a decade long problem and all of you tankers are still " what have you done for me lately?"

If you really really want us to tank you should be hoping that price gets kreidered again becuase that will accomplish your goal faster than the GM.

For shame.

When compared to the worst season in franchise history (last year) , we are indeed better.
Remind me who built the team that produced such a disaster?
Am I supposed to kiss the feet of the person responsible for our current situation because he made some decent moves?
Overall we are in decent shape , a team that could develop it's current prospect and build a good (but not great) playoff team...Is that the goal now?
What happened to our legendary legacy and the standards of this once great franchise?

One thing is clear , our newly found "center depth" is garbage compared with the elites of the league and that is my issue , I want to be among the best not just barely qualifying for the playoffs and anything can happen mentality. The reality is teams with top offensive talent tend to win the cup more than other teams , shocking I know...

The reality is Domi may not produce as well next season and Kotkaniemi may hit a sophmore slump , then it certainly won't be as strong as you claim.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'd gladly move on from Price and Weber if we got the return we deserved. However, I doubt it. Price also has a NMC so we need to be very careful with that.

Deals fell apart when Bergevin was shopping Subban and he settled on Weber. I just don't see many teams giving us the return we think can get. If we had a hard time getting full value on Subban, we will have a hard time with Price and Weber.

I don't believe you are on board with a liquidated trade value rigth? Kind of how the Leafs liquidated Kessel and Phaneuf?

I'd rather get a return on them now before they have no value at all. If Weber continues the decline we have seen now, what value will there be to get from him?

Price, the value is not having him artificially inflate the point totals on the team anymore by gaining them points in contests they are out classed.

The plan is the draft and develop, make smart signings and trades, ideally you trade Weber or Petry because Josh Brook has made them expendable. But he won't be ready in that time frame, so we aren't at that stage yet (due to bad drafting and development in the dark ages. Spare the argument let's just say that Timmins and scouts and Lefebvre and coaches both had equal responsibility for this.)

But here's an example of how it can work for us now.
Let's say we want to move forward with Domi and Kotkaniemi as our top 6 C's (unless we get a Hughes quality C through the draft lotto). That leaves Danault at the three. With Poehling developing, if he does that, we trade Danault for picks and prospects or a player at a position of weakness. Poehling (a draft pick) has then replaced a roster player and we have then used the player he replaced to address an immediate need or add draft capital into the system which will hopefully do the same thing when that prospect is ready.

 

[Habs Halifax]

I'd rather get a return on them now before they have no value at all. If Weber continues the decline we have seen now, what value will there be to get from him?

Price, the value is not having him artificially inflate the point totals on the team anymore by gaining them points in contests they are out classed.

The plan is the draft and develop, make smart signings and trades, ideally you trade Weber or Petry because Josh Brook has made them expendable. But he won't be ready in that time frame, so we aren't at that stage yet (due to bad drafting and development in the dark ages. Spare the argument let's just say that Timmins and scouts and Lefebvre and coaches both had equal responsibility for this.)

But here's an example of how it can work for us now.
Let's say we want to move forward with Domi and Kotkaniemi as our top 6 C's (unless we get a Hughes quality C through the draft lotto). That leaves Danault at the three. With Poehling developing, if he does that, we trade Danault for picks and prospects or a player at a position of weakness. Poehling (a draft pick) has then replaced a roster player and we have then used the player he replaced to address an immediate need or add draft capital into the system which will hopefully do the same thing when that prospect is ready.

I'm on the fence about it but I do see your point and strategy. I just wish we knew what the returns would be if we tried to move Weber and Price.

I'm just not sold on our team being for sure better in 5+ years vs what we are today. But I guess the point is we have not picked in the top 5 for severals years in a row so if we don't try, we won't know.

 

[Saundies]

When compared to the worst season in franchise history (last year) , we are indeed better.
Remind me who built the team that produced such a disaster?
Am I supposed to kiss the feet of the person responsible for our current situation because he made some decent moves?
Overall we are in decent shape , a team that could develop it's current prospect and build a good (but not great) playoff team...Is that the goal now?
What happened to our legendary legacy and the standards of this once great franchise?

One thing is clear , our newly found "center depth" is garbage compared with the elites of the league and that is my issue , I want to be among the best not just barely qualifying for the playoffs and anything can happen mentality. The reality is teams with top offensive talent tend to win the cup more than other teams , shocking I know...

The reality is Domi may not produce as well next season and Kotkaniemi may hit a sophmore slump , then it certainly won't be as strong as you claim.

Exactly.. If you're in the middle of the ocean and the captain of your ship puts a huge hole in the boat, you don't hail him as a savior after he finds out a way to slap a temporary band-aid on it.

This team is Bergevin's vision. No-game breaking talent with any egos, just a bunch of good guys who plug away and find ways to be effective through hard work. They probably get along great and are mostly all awesome to deal with.

Problem is, good players who may possibly have egos can move the needle for your team and make a difference when it counts. That's why you put up with them. But Marc would rather "character, attitude" than talent. And it will continue to be this way with him at the helm.

 

[WeThreeKings]

I'm on the fence about it but I do see your point and strategy. I just wish we knew what the returns would be if we tried to move Weber and Price.

I'm just not sold on our team being for sure better in 5+ years vs what we are today. But I guess the point is we have not picked in the top 5 for severals years in a row so if we don't try, we won't know.

There's no guarantee we will be better in 5+ years but I think we can all agree that we aren't good enough now and the time is ticking on Weber without a doubt. Even if he still plays good/great hockey, every year that his play declines his cap hit is the same. We are at the point where both Price and Weber are getting paid for past performance and not what they are giving now. That's a sunk cost.

 

[Runner77]

Because you can't win the cup without elite talent. Just because the center line is better than it was last year, doesn't mean it's good enough to win a cup. It isn't.

This team lacks elite talent and the only high end guys they have are guys over the age of thirty. Meaning they are likely not going to be high end by the time that the team gets the holes plugged that you see now.

It's time to move on from Price and Weber the same way we moved on from Pacioretty.

Except MB says he doesn’t believe in windows. How does a team optimize asset mix in such a context and what kind of team is one likely to have on hand year over year?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

It’s not meant to be taken literally. It’s a Franco expression meant to evoke going back to the thread’s subject matter.

You gotta admit though, it's easy to presume a double-entendre there?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Except MB says he doesn’t believe in windows. How does a team optimize asset mix in such a context and what kind of team is one likely to have on hand year over year?

One can't believe in something they know nothing about.

Like asking a garbage man to do a bilateral bypass surgery. (I thought that sounded good, don't know if it actually exists lol)

 

[Habs Halifax]

There's no guarantee we will be better in 5+ years but I think we can all agree that we aren't good enough now and the time is ticking on Weber without a doubt. Even if he still plays good/great hockey, every year that his play declines his cap hit is the same. We are at the point where both Price and Weber are getting paid for past performance and not what they are giving now. That's a sunk cost.

No matter what, based on what I see (current assets and future), I don't see the Habs being a top 5 cup contender in the next decade. Top 5-10 contender is possible if we add the right pieces so this is why I am torn. I do see a possibility of adding two key assets (Trade using Suzuki and our cap space).

Lets say we sell Price and Weber in deals that are fair. Lets say that in 5 years, we are no better than who we are today. Pretty sure we look back using hindsight evaluation and say we should of went all in when we had Price and Weber.

However, we just don't know how good our prospects are and what picks we add on top of them. Could result in the Canes and Sabres vs the Lightning type teams. If you want a top 5 cup contender, we need to tear it apart and draft in the top 5 for several seasons and cross your fingers we hit on a few elite level talent.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Except MB says he doesn’t believe in windows. How does a team optimize asset mix in such a context and what kind of team is one likely to have on hand year over year?

Not believing in windows is pretty stupid. I don't think you can optimize asset management in a situation where the person managing the assets isn't realistic about things.

If you want to see asset management optimized. Study guys like Pollock or Belichick. These guys understood when to cash in on a player. They knew that in order for a team to succeed that you couldn't be paying a guy more than you are getting from them. You can't hold on a guy too long because of loyalty. If you can find a guy who can give you 80% of what Weber is giving you at age 34/35 and get that salary back to invest on someone else, plus the assets from trading that player while his reputation is higher than on ice value? You do it.

 

[Walrus26]

Exactly.. If you're in the middle of the ocean and the captain of your ship puts a huge hole in the boat, you don't hail him as a savior after he finds out a way to slap a temporary band-aid on it.

This team is Bergevin's vision. No-game breaking talent with any egos, just a bunch of good guys who plug away and find ways to be effective through hard work. They probably get along great and are mostly all awesome to deal with.

Problem is, good players who may possibly have egos can move the needle for your team and make a difference when it counts. That's why you put up with them. But Marc would rather "character, attitude" than talent. And it will continue to be this way with him at the helm.

Nail hit squarely on head - summed up perfectly without vitriol.

 

[WeThreeKings]

No matter what, based on what I see (current assets and future), I don't see the Habs being a top 5 cup contender in the next decade. Top 5-10 contender is possible if we add the right pieces so this is why I am torn. I do see a possibility of adding two key assets (Trade using Suzuki and our cap space).

Lets say we sell Price and Weber in deals that are fair. Lets say that in 5 years, we are no better than who we are today. Pretty sure we look back using hindsight evaluation and say we should of went all in when we had Price and Weber.

However, we just don't know how good our prospects are and what picks we add on top of them. Could result in the Canes and Sabres vs the Lightning type teams. If you want a top 5 cup contender, we need to tear it apart and draft in the top 5 for several seasons and cross your fingers we hit on a few elite level talent.

The time to take that chance on Weber and Price was a couple years ago (before Prices extension) but we were unwilling to do anything but acquire guys like Bryan Flynn. Scoring was an issue and we didn't address it.

Sinking more time into that tandem now is just going to extend the length of time it will take to get on track and then you are getting into second and third contracts for guys like Kotkaniemi.

 

[Kent Nilsson]

I wonder how many years this tanking debate will last. Probably a long time.

 

[admiralcadillac]

We only have a handful of wins more than Buffalo this season , so we may not be that far from a dumpster fire even with all our "quality depth"...
Price/Weber aren't going to get better with age (pro athletes rarely do...) and Buffalo has elite/franchise pieces at all key positions.
I remember last year when people were chirping me because I was pointing towards Carolina and their amazing youth and I was told how tanking hasn't helped them. How are they doing now?

Buffalo isn't as far as you think from being a very decent young team , they certainly showed this year that they aren't as bad as your are making it seem. Habs are faltering just as much as the Sabres did and they apparently have a "tire fire" , what's our excuse?

They've been saying this for years in Buffalo.

We can also reverse that logic: Can't you say that it's surprising that with Buffalo's "solid foundation" they're still worse than our team which was supposed to be a garbage dump lottery team?

 

[Saundies]

Except MB says he doesn’t believe in windows. How does a team optimize asset mix in such a context and what kind of team is one likely to have on hand year over year?

MB definitely believes in windows, he just doesn't want the pressure of the "window" to force his hand into actually doing anything. It's easy to get the media off your back about a "window" if you try to dispel the notion of them entirely.

Obviously if you have 3-4 core players all coming up in their prime at the same time, your opportunity to win is going to be larger than it would be if you had 1-2 and a couple of over the hill vets.

Not believing in windows is almost like not believing in climate change.

 

[Hfbsux]

There's no guarantee we will be better in 5+ years but I think we can all agree that we aren't good enough now and the time is ticking on Weber without a doubt. Even if he still plays good/great hockey, every year that his play declines his cap hit is the same. We are at the point where both Price and Weber are getting paid for past performance and not what they are giving now. That's a sunk cost.

Would you consider keeping him around to help the young D prospects coming up?

 

[OldCraig71]

It’s not meant to be taken literally. It’s a Franco expression meant to evoke going back to the thread’s subject matter.

Well, there you go. Here I was thinking that it was one old lawyer talking to a young up and coming one.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Would you consider keeping him around to help the young D prospects coming up?

Depending. If his value out there is a third round pick. Sure.

But if you can get actual value back on him. No. I can find a veteran off free agency and pay them more on a short term contract to mentor if needed.

 

[LaP]

They've been saying this for years in Buffalo.

We can also reverse that logic: Can't you say that it's surprising that with Buffalo's "solid foundation" they're still worse than our team which was supposed to be a garbage dump lottery team?

The first time Buffalo picked top 5 is in 2014. That was 5 years ago only. People here act like they have been tanking for 20 years.

 

[Hfbsux]

Depending. If his value out there is a third round pick. Sure.

But if you can get actual value back on him. No. I can find a veteran off free agency and pay them more on a short term contract to mentor if needed.

I wouldn't mind that at all. I think it's a safe approach considering we are in rebuild mode. Keeping Weber around is a huge risk considering his age and cap hit.

 

[CauZuki]

They've been saying this for years in Buffalo.

We can also reverse that logic: Can't you say that it's surprising that with Buffalo's "solid foundation" they're still worse than our team which was supposed to be a garbage dump lottery team?

No we can't say that, as there are many factors in building a succesful hockey team. The onus is on you to show me teams that were built in the way the Habs are doing so and that have achieved success. We are going on 3 decades without a Stanley cup finals appearance, the barely making the playoffs strategy hasn't really worked well for us...

I have clearly shown the teams that are leading the NHL and that are most likely to win a cup have all drafted top end players in the lottery (don't forget there are no guarantees and no strategy has a 100% success rate).

I don't think it's reasonable to expect the Habs to find a Kucherov in the 2nd round but we can at least start by picking a direction for the team and sticking with it...It's all I'm asking for , is that so unreasonable?

 

[peate]

The Habs do the opposite of what good teams do. Start slow and build as the season progresses. They came out like gangbusters and 10 games into the season, according to Byron, the boys were tired. WTF?

Now look at them, they're erratic, shooting from anywhere and doing nothing on the PP. But hey, everything's OK, Drouin looks great skating aimlessly.

It's time to clean house.