Welcome to TED Talk - Battle of the Economic Reports is ON!

[TheLegend]

Good interview....

Click to read more...

 

[Knights2017]

Craig said, there are backup options if this Tempe site doesn't work. That's nice to hear but clearly this is #1 location for the team.

 

[XX]

Why is the ice so good at Mullett Arena? - PHNX Sports

The players’ reactions from the first four NHL games at Mullett Arena sounded like testimonials for the work of the league’s and venue’s ice crews.

www.gophnx.com

Hopefully some of these design lessons carry over to the arena.

 

[TheLegend]

Why is the ice so good at Mullett Arena? - PHNX Sports

The players’ reactions from the first four NHL games at Mullett Arena sounded like testimonials for the work of the league’s and venue’s ice crews.

www.gophnx.com

Hopefully some of these design lessons carry over to the arena.

Exactly my thought.

Haven’t read this article yet but from what I remember reading earlier they added more piping in the floor between the piping they already had planned in place. Made the floor freeze much faster.

 

[JasonDemersWasOkay]

I just gotta say, I don’t know how some of you put up with it in BOH without tearing your hair out. EVERYONE says taxpayers aren’t paying for the arena, the city council has pored over every minute detail of the deal, the chamber on commerce is on board, they are all in agreement that the deal is GOOD for the city.

And yet you STILL have Canadians who probably don’t even know the mayor’s name and couldn’t tell you the first thing about Tempe still propping up BS about how the taxpayers are footing the bill. Like WHAT THE ACTUAL f***

 

[MIGs Dog]

I just gotta say, I don’t know how some of you put up with it in BOH without tearing your hair out. EVERYONE says taxpayers aren’t paying for the arena, the city council has pored over every minute detail of the deal, the chamber on commerce is on board, they are all in agreement that the deal is GOOD for the city.

And yet you STILL have Canadians who probably don’t even know the mayor’s name and couldn’t tell you the first thing about Tempe still propping up BS about how the taxpayers are footing the bill. Like WHAT THE ACTUAL f***

Fortunately, the vast majority of Tempe voters don't read BOH.

It's the misrepresentation by local media that I'm more worried about.

 

[BlazingBlueAnt]

I just gotta say, I don’t know how some of you put up with it in BOH without tearing your hair out. EVERYONE says taxpayers aren’t paying for the arena, the city council has pored over every minute detail of the deal, the chamber on commerce is on board, they are all in agreement that the deal is GOOD for the city.

And yet you STILL have Canadians who probably don’t even know the mayor’s name and couldn’t tell you the first thing about Tempe still propping up BS about how the taxpayers are footing the bill. Like WHAT THE ACTUAL f***

All the Canadians, like the people in Edmonton, who were bent over funding a free arena for billionaires want to feel better.

 

[Knights2017]

Did I hear it right during the bruins game broadcast that XG says the team already got the 6000 signatures?

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Did I hear it right during the bruins game broadcast that XG says the team already got the 6000 signatures?

He did.

 

[Tom Polakis]

I just had someone stop by to ask for my signature to oppose the Entertainment District. The signature sheet did not give the organization name, nor could I understand his relatively poor speaking ability when he answered my question about that. I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes door-to-door for a cause no matter how I feel about it, so I heard him out. He said that the objections are the estimated $600 million in tax breaks that will be handed out over 30 years and the traffic issues it will create. I didn't sign, told him "good luck," and sent him on his way.

I am trying to learn more about this tax break, and found this site that's devoted entirely to stadium and arena funding objections.
Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

They write: "In place of property taxes, the Coyotes would pay government property lease excise taxes, or GPLET. This is an Arizona-specific thing where public land is leased to a private entity in exchange for those PILOTs, which are less than what they would pay if they owned the land and paid regular property taxes. The total value of the tax break over 30 years isn’t provided in the DDA, but it’s previously been estimated at $649 million over 30 years; in present value, depending on how backloaded the lost property taxes are, that’s worth about $300 million."

And they don't define what a PILOT is. Anyone know? Also, can someone better explain how a GPLET works? As for the $649 million figure, that "previous estimate" is from Athena Salman's piece in the Republic, wherein she doesn't state were it originated.

 

[hbk]

That garbage dump must be a real cash cow. I have had this discussion with government officials in the past. 100% of zero is still zero.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I just had someone stop by to ask for my signature to oppose the Entertainment District. The signature sheet did not give the organization name, nor could I understand his relatively poor speaking ability when he answered my question about that. I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes door-to-door for a cause no matter how I feel about it, so I heard him out. He said that the objections are the estimated $600 million in tax breaks that will be handed out over 30 years and the traffic issues it will create. I didn't sign, told him "good luck," and sent him on his way.

I am trying to learn more about this tax break, and found this site that's devoted entirely to stadium and arena funding objections.
Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

They write: "In place of property taxes, the Coyotes would pay government property lease excise taxes, or GPLET. This is an Arizona-specific thing where public land is leased to a private entity in exchange for those PILOTs, which are less than what they would pay if they owned the land and paid regular property taxes. The total value of the tax break over 30 years isn’t provided in the DDA, but it’s previously been estimated at $649 million over 30 years; in present value, depending on how backloaded the lost property taxes are, that’s worth about $300 million."

And they don't define what a PILOT is. Anyone know? Also, can someone better explain how a GPLET works? As for the $649 million figure, that "previous estimate" is from Athena Salman's piece in the Republic, wherein she doesn't state were it originated.

I can't answer your questions, but those opposed should consider this: the property currently generates zero in tax revenue. The TED will generate other types of tax revenue such as sales tax, income tax, etc. No one else has stepped forward to develop the land, and the remediation costs alone likely will prevent it from happening.

Bottom line, it's the TED or nothing, and the "lost" tax revenue doesn't cost Tempe residents one dime.

 

[Schemp]

1 way to alleviate traffic is to connect Rio Salado to the Hohokam Expressway

 

[TheLegend]

I can't answer your questions, but those opposed should consider this: the property currently generates zero in tax revenue. The TED will generate other types of tax revenue such as sales tax, income tax, etc. No one else has stepped forward to develop the land, and the remediation costs alone likely will prevent it from happening.

Bottom line, it's the TED or nothing, and the "lost" tax revenue doesn't cost Tempe residents one dime.

Actually it does cost them.

Putting out land fill fires aren't cheap.

 

[TheLegend]

I just had someone stop by to ask for my signature to oppose the Entertainment District. The signature sheet did not give the organization name, nor could I understand his relatively poor speaking ability when he answered my question about that. I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes door-to-door for a cause no matter how I feel about it, so I heard him out. He said that the objections are the estimated $600 million in tax breaks that will be handed out over 30 years and the traffic issues it will create. I didn't sign, told him "good luck," and sent him on his way.

I am trying to learn more about this tax break, and found this site that's devoted entirely to stadium and arena funding objections.
Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

They write: "In place of property taxes, the Coyotes would pay government property lease excise taxes, or GPLET. This is an Arizona-specific thing where public land is leased to a private entity in exchange for those PILOTs, which are less than what they would pay if they owned the land and paid regular property taxes. The total value of the tax break over 30 years isn’t provided in the DDA, but it’s previously been estimated at $649 million over 30 years; in present value, depending on how backloaded the lost property taxes are, that’s worth about $300 million."

And they don't define what a PILOT is. Anyone know? Also, can someone better explain how a GPLET works? As for the $649 million figure, that "previous estimate" is from Athena Salman's piece in the Republic, wherein she doesn't state were it originated.

If you want to know how a GPLET works.... start here.

Government Property Lease Excise Tax (GPLET) | Arizona Department of Revenue

azdor.gov

About petitions.... Without having a organization name or clear wording of what the petition is for it will get rejected. Arizona has very stringent laws on them.

As for these projections of "giveaways".....

What they are doing is estimating what the city could get if the same project were to be built there WITHOUT any abatements.

Trouble is.... nobody is ever going to do that. Nobody is going to spend that kind of money ($239 million) to clear out a chunk of land before even pouring a foundation.

 

[Jagged Ice]

I can't answer your questions, but those opposed should consider this: the property currently generates zero in tax revenue. The TED will generate other types of tax revenue such as sales tax, income tax, etc. No one else has stepped forward to develop the land, and the remediation costs alone likely will prevent it from happening.

Bottom line, it's the TED or nothing, and the "lost" tax revenue doesn't cost Tempe residents one dime.

All true and obvious to you and I, but these opponents are presenting this as a new arena that will cost tax payers $500 million and that's all they hear. They don't know about the site being a landfill that isn't generating taxes. They don't know this arena is privately financed. They have a short attention span and see this as a new arena that will cost them $500 million because that's how these door knockers are presenting this. I still think it has a shot at passing but far from a slam dunk. The referendum is a mistake and should have been avoided, especially with the Mayor, council and now even the airport on board.

 

[mouser]

I just had someone stop by to ask for my signature to oppose the Entertainment District. The signature sheet did not give the organization name, nor could I understand his relatively poor speaking ability when he answered my question about that. I have a lot of respect for anyone who goes door-to-door for a cause no matter how I feel about it, so I heard him out. He said that the objections are the estimated $600 million in tax breaks that will be handed out over 30 years and the traffic issues it will create. I didn't sign, told him "good luck," and sent him on his way.

I am trying to learn more about this tax break, and found this site that's devoted entirely to stadium and arena funding objections.
Fine print shows: Coyotes’ privately funded arena could cost taxpayers over $500m

They write: "In place of property taxes, the Coyotes would pay government property lease excise taxes, or GPLET. This is an Arizona-specific thing where public land is leased to a private entity in exchange for those PILOTs, which are less than what they would pay if they owned the land and paid regular property taxes. The total value of the tax break over 30 years isn’t provided in the DDA, but it’s previously been estimated at $649 million over 30 years; in present value, depending on how backloaded the lost property taxes are, that’s worth about $300 million."

And they don't define what a PILOT is. Anyone know? Also, can someone better explain how a GPLET works? As for the $649 million figure, that "previous estimate" is from Athena Salman's piece in the Republic, wherein she doesn't state were it originated.

Short summary of GPLET: The city (or other allowed government entity) can convert property taxes that would be paid into an excise tax. The city also has the option to reduce or eliminate (abate) the excise tax. A full 100% abatement means no property taxes would be paid by the property owner during the lifetime of the GPLET. Most GPLETs are 8 years long. Almost every single piece of major development in Tempe up and down the town lake as well as downtown Mill has (or had a now expired) 8 year GPLET. So the 8 year GPLET is a very standard tool used by Tempe and all over Arizona. PILOT is just a different name used in other states for a similar tax abatement agreement.

Coyotes are requesting the arena, training facility and theater be subject to a 30 year GPLET. The basic argument being zero property taxes are paid on any of the other major sports arenas in Arizona--Cardinals, Suns and Diamondback arenas are all owned by government entities and thus exempt from property tax. After 30 years the Coyotes arena would start paying property taxes. So even with a 30 year GPLET on the arena TED is financially better property tax wise than State Farm, Footprint or Chase field are for Glendale and Phoenix respectively.

All other property in the development, including the Hotels, Retail space, Residential space, Commercial space, etc, would be on a 8 year GPLET just like all the other big Tempe development projects. And begin paying full property taxes 8 years after they are constructed.

The developer agreement doesn't estimate how much money is "lost" due to the GPLETs. It's important to understand right now the site is generating zero property taxes. And even worse the city of Tempe owned property (a former city dump landfill) has negative value due to the $100m to $130m estimated costs required to remediate the property to a condition where it could be developed. GPLETs are basically the city agreeing to forgo some future tax property revenue in return for incentivizing the developer to build the infrastructure now that will be generating the new tax revenue going forward.

It's worth noting the city is still collecting other taxes during the GPLET period, such as sales taxes, hotel bed taxes, etc. Only Property Taxes are abated.


Another way of looking at GPLET "lost taxes", it's not a comparison of whether a glass is half empty or half full. The better analogy would be the difference between a glass that's empty or half to copletely full. Right now the land generates no taxes (the glass is empty), with the GPLET the land will start generating some taxes (glass half full to some degree) and when the GPLET expires full taxes are collected (full glass).

 

[TheLegend]

Short summary of GPLET: The city (or other allowed government entity) can convert property taxes that would be paid into an excise tax. The city also has the option to reduce or eliminate (abate) the excise tax. A full 100% abatement means no property taxes would be paid by the property owner during the lifetime of the GPLET. Most GPLETs are 8 years long. Almost every single piece of major development in Tempe up and down the town lake as well as downtown Mill has (or had a now expired) 8 year GPLET. So the 8 year GPLET is a very standard tool used by Tempe and all over Arizona. PILOT is just a different name used in other states for a similar tax abatement agreement.

Coyotes are requesting the arena, training facility and theater be subject to a 30 year GPLET. The basic argument being zero property taxes are paid on any of the other major sports arenas in Arizona--Cardinals, Suns and Diamondback arenas are all owned by government entities and thus exempt from property tax. After 30 years the Coyotes arena would start paying property taxes.

All other property in the development, including the Hotels, Retail space, Residential space, Commercial space, etc, would be on a 8 year GPLET just like all the other big Tempe development projects. And begin paying full property taxes 8 years after they are constructed.

The developer agreement doesn't estimate how much money is "lost" due to the GPLETs. It's important to understand right now the site is generating zero property taxes. And even worse the city of Tempe owned property (a former city dump landfill) has negative value due to the $100m to $130m estimated costs required to remediate the property to a condition where it could be developed. GPLETs are basically the city agreeing to forgo some future tax property revenue in return for incentivizing the developer to build the infrastructure now that will be generating the new tax revenue going forward.

It's worth noting the city is still collecting other taxes during the GPLET period, such as sales taxes, hotel bed taxes, etc. Only Property Taxes are abated.


Another way of looking at GPLET "lost taxes", it's not a comparison of whether a glass is half empty or half full. The better analogy would be the difference between a glass that's empty or half to copletely full. Right now the land generates no taxes (the glass is empty), with the GPLET the land will start generating some taxes (glass half full to some degree) and when the GPLET expires full taxes are collected (full glass).

To look at it in another perspective. The city is making a relatively short term investment to achieve a much larger return in the long term.

TED is constructed to minimize the risk to that investment.

 

[Tom Polakis]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry that I didn't gather the organization's name when he stated it. At first, he told me that my signature would only be information that I intended to vote, but later in the conversation, I pointedly asked why he wanted my signature. At that point, he stated that "we need 3000 signatures." That was the obvious red flag not to sign it.

 

[RemoAZ]

All true and obvious to you and I, but these opponents are presenting this as a new arena that will cost tax payers $500 million and that's all they hear. They don't know about the site being a landfill that isn't generating taxes. They don't know this arena is privately financed. They have a short attention span and see this as a new arena that will cost them $500 million because that's how these door knockers are presenting this. I still think it has a shot at passing but far from a slam dunk. The referendum is a mistake and should have been avoided, especially with the Mayor, council and now even the airport on board.

This is pretty much what I said right at the beginning when they said it was going to a vote. People hear tax breaks and they automatically think the Coyotes are getting an arena paid for with tax dollars and the groups against it will push that narrative. Facts don't matter. Hopefully enough votes either want the Coyotes to stay or want the land developed/believe in the project because relying on educated voters doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

 

[TheLegend]

This is pretty much what I said right at the beginning when they said it was going to a vote. People hear tax breaks and they automatically think the Coyotes are getting an arena paid for with tax dollars and the groups against it will push that narrative. Facts don't matter. Hopefully enough votes either want the Coyotes to stay or want the land developed/believe in the project because relying on educated voters doesn't seem like a winning strategy.

Facts are they have two internal polls showing over 60% of Tempe residents are in favor of it and are confident they can get it passed.

So if you want to play the Negative Nancy game here that’s fine. Just realize you’re only speaking for yourself.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Facts are they have two internal polls showing over 60% of Tempe residents are in favor of it and are confident they can get it passed.

That is very encouraging.

 

[Bondurant]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry that I didn't gather the organization's name when he stated it. At first, he told me that my signature would only be information that I intended to vote, but later in the conversation, I pointedly asked why he wanted my signature. At that point, he stated that "we need 3000 signatures." That was the obvious red flag not to sign it.

Many petitioners are paid and only provided talking points to share. It's $1 per valid signature.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Thanks for the replies, and sorry that I didn't gather the organization's name when he stated it. At first, he told me that my signature would only be information that I intended to vote, but later in the conversation, I pointedly asked why he wanted my signature. At that point, he stated that "we need 3000 signatures." That was the obvious red flag not to sign it.

What's the point of gathering signatures in opposition? The TED team needs signatures to get it to a vote, after that, it's all about the votes. I don't see the point of an opposition petition.

 

[TheLegend]

What's the point of gathering signatures in opposition? The TED team needs signatures to get it to a vote, after that, it's all about the votes. I don't see the point of an opposition petition.

Depends on what they want.

Example: A petition could be written to force TED to implement low-cost housing into the project.