Silver Seven Weekly Question: Does Dorion Get enough Credit?

[TkachukNorris79]

Considering what he's been given to work with, he's done very well, especially since the Hoffman deal, as @Smeddy said. The Zibanejad, Turris and Hoffman trades were pretty bad, but he's definitely shown a ton of improvement, both in terms of moves and his media ops. Slowly getting better.

I'm sure he had a pretty big part in drafting Chabot in 2015, which in hindsight was the start of this new sens team. His first move was trading a 3rd and 12th overall for 11th (Logan Brown). It was highly criticized at the time, but I'm more than fine with McLeod+Gignac for Brown looks pretty good for the sens right now. Bowers was a meh pick in 2017 but Batherson and Formenton were both steals in the draft and should have been first rounders. Also brought in Norris and Brannstrom from that draft. Tkachuk was a great decsion (the crow tastes great btw), and JBD looks like a really good fit for this team. Still on the fence with Thomson, but he'll really only need to be our 4th best dman and a PP triggerman.

Building through the draft is the right way to do it.

Here's a list of the 1st round picks under the sens control that are 23 or younger:

- Chabot (18th. 2015)
- White (21st, 2015)
- L. Brown (11th, 2016)
- Brannstrom (15th, 2017)
- Norris (19th, 2017)
- Tkachuk (4th, 2018)
- JBD (26th, 2018)
- Thomson (19th, 2019)
- 2020 OTT pick (1-5)
- 2020 SJ pick (1-8)
- 2020 NYI pick (13-20)

Plus guys who in a re-draft are probably 1st rounders in Batherson (121st, 2017), Formenton (47th, 2017), Pinto (32nd, 2019) and arguably Abramov (65th, 2016).

That's 15 players, not counting good NHLers like Duclair, C. Brown, and Tierney, along with support guys like Wolanin, Chlapik, Balcers, Jaros and Lajoie. Some of these guys will bust, but the quantity of talent should insulate that.

Dorion has a big part to do with all those gus being here. He's been the busiest GM in the league since being hired, some polarizing moves, but he's building the team the right way. Can't wait for the draft.

 

[Icelevel]

That’s impossible to say without knowing what is happening behind the scenes.
We can only go based on what we know and we know that some of his trades are so bad that they rank up there with the worst I have ever seen and should end up in a firing.

Any gm with the assets he had you would think is going to hit a couple home runs. You just don’t want to be giving away top players along the way. Which he did.

 

[DJB]

There is no reason to suggest that a GM who has been bad to very bad under certain management constraints, would fair any better under a different set of management constraints.

So let me get this straight . Would this also apply to you for example ? Are you the same crap employee under one management with terrible work conditions as you are with another under completely different circumstances ?

I don't understand how people cannot see that EVERY Dorion move is related to $$$$. He basically has to make moves whereby we offload real $$$ and keep or increase our overall cap hit.

Look at the list of guys that needed a new contract and he traded away or didn't sign.

Alfie
Spezza
Karlsson
Zibanejad
Turris
Duchene
Brassard
Stone
Dzingel
Pageau

That list doesn't include lower end guys,

If people can't grasp the concept that Melnyk won't write the check to sign these guys, what else is Dorion to do?

Would you prefer he let them all walk and we get nothing?

Any other owner would have probably signed at minimum half those guys.

 

[Matsens15]

I think Dorion has accomplished good work giving the circumstances he has to deal with (Melnyk). What help him the most is the fact that he was one of the best scout in hockey. In his situations with a guy like Melnyk, being a excellent scout saves him.

 

[BatherSeason]

So let me get this straight . Would this also apply to you for example ? Are you the same crap employee under one management with terrible work conditions as you are with another under completely different circumstances ?

I don't understand how people cannot see that EVERY Dorion move is related to $$$$. He basically has to make moves whereby we offload real $$$ and keep or increase our overall cap hit.

Look at the list of guys that needed a new contract and he traded away or didn't sign.

Alfie
Spezza
Karlsson
Zibanejad
Turris
Duchene
Brassard
Stone
Dzingel
Pageau

That list doesn't include lower end guys,

If people can't grasp the concept that Melnyk won't write the check to sign these guys, what else is Dorion to do?

Would you prefer he let them all walk and we get nothing?

Any other owner would have probably signed at minimum half those guys.

Dorion handled the Stone and Karlsson trades terribly. Yes, the EK trade looks good now, but the whole charade Dorion created surrounding both departures was just a pure disaster and he completely got undervalue for both players at the time of the trades. Stone's return was considerable worse. Yes, he handled this deadline much better, but this isn't really a business where a GM can learn on the job.

Dorion will get credit from me once he shows that he can rebuild a team. The teardown was the easy part.

 

[FunkySeeFunkyDoo]

Dorion handled the Stone and Karlsson trades terribly. Yes, the EK trade looks good now, but the whole charade Dorion created surrounding both departures was just a pure disaster and he completely got undervalue for both players at the time of the trades. Stone's return was considerable worse. Yes, he handled this deadline much better, but this isn't really a business where a GM can learn on the job.

Dorion will get credit from me once he shows that he can rebuild a team. The teardown was the easy part.

A friend and I were talking about the Leafs rebuild back in the summer of 2016 -- a few weeks after they had just drafted Auston Matthews. He was of the opinion that they'd executed their rebuild to perfection, I was quite a bit more cautious ... saying that all the hard work was still ahead for them. He thought about it and then said the exact same thing that you typed in the bold...

I'm not trying to turn this into a Leafs-rebuild-bashing discussion, as I think they still have done pretty well.

It's just that I do agree that giving credit to Dorion for what's been done so far doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

 

[Matsens15]

Dorion handled the Stone and Karlsson trades terribly. Yes, the EK trade looks good now, but the whole charade Dorion created surrounding both departures was just a pure disaster and he completely got undervalue for both players at the time of the trades. Stone's return was considerable worse. Yes, he handled this deadline much better, but this isn't really a business where a GM can learn on the job.

Dorion will get credit from me once he shows that he can rebuild a team. The teardown was the easy part.

You are right. The BIG test will be on draft day and next season. What will Dorion do with all these picks. He will need to bring good players via trade with picks and prospect once he decided after the draft which young players the team will build around. This will be the most crucial and interesting year of the rebuild. He also have to think that the players he will bring in needs to be unprotected or protected for the expansion draft. I, for once agree with you! Lol

 

[Zorf]

So let me get this straight . Would this also apply to you for example ? Are you the same crap employee under one management with terrible work conditions as you are with another under completely different circumstances ?

I don't understand how people cannot see that EVERY Dorion move is related to $$$$. He basically has to make moves whereby we offload real $$$ and keep or increase our overall cap hit.

Look at the list of guys that needed a new contract and he traded away or didn't sign.

Alfie
Spezza
Karlsson
Zibanejad
Turris
Duchene
Brassard
Stone
Dzingel
Pageau

That list doesn't include lower end guys,

If people can't grasp the concept that Melnyk won't write the check to sign these guys, what else is Dorion to do?

Would you prefer he let them all walk and we get nothing?

Any other owner would have probably signed at minimum half those guys.

Alfie and Spezza were when Bryan Murray was GM.

 

[Zorf]

Tkachuk - Norris - Ryan
Duclair* - White* - Batherson
Balcers* - Tierney* - C. Brown
Paul - Anisimov* - Abramov*

Chabot - Jaros*
Brannstrom - Zaitsev*
Borowiecki - Wolanin
Englund

Nilsson
Hogberg
Gustavsson
Daccord

With the players coming up, they can trade more players for picks. I see Duclair and Tierney on their way out. Probably one of Balcers and Abramov sticks and the other traded. A goalie will go too with that depth.

1RD = Jaros --> Jacob Bernard-Docker
2LW = Duclair --> Formenton
2C = White --> 2020 pick
3C = Tierney --> White
2RD = Zaitsev --> Thomson

The pieces are there for a strong team. I see the top 9 solidified with the addition of two high-talent players in this year's first round, and the top 2 lines on D are set for long-term.

I am a fan of this roster construction. Give it time.

If this is your projected roster for the 2020-21 season, I don't think they even meet the cap floor.


edit. I did a super rough estimate, and forgot to count buyouts and Dion's retained salary. So may be they just squeak over the cap floor.

Still a far cry from the F.Y.O.U.S that is supposed to start next season.

 

[Matsens15]

If this is your projected roster for the 2020-21 season, I don't think they even meet the cap floor.


edit. I did a super rough estimate, and forgot to count buyouts and Dion's retained salary. So may be they just squeak over the cap floor.

Still a far cry from the F.Y.O.U.S that is supposed to start next season.

All depends on the price current UFA and RFA on the team will be resigned at

 

[JD1]

If this is your projected roster for the 2020-21 season, I don't think they even meet the cap floor.


edit. I did a super rough estimate, and forgot to count buyouts and Dion's retained salary. So may be they just squeak over the cap floor.

Still a far cry from the F.Y.O.U.S that is supposed to start next season.

I thought FYOUS was in 21?

 

[Crosside]

I thought FYOUS was in 21?

Not really date. He said when the team gonna be ready for contending

 

[Zorf]

I thought FYOUS was in 21?

I can't be the only one who giggles every single time I read FYOUS.


I thought it was supposed to start next year, but the "promised" bigger spending is probably in 2021 when Brady's next contract starts up, so maybe you're right.

FYOUS. haha. so good.

 

[Matsens15]

Considering what he's been given to work with, he's done very well, especially since the Hoffman deal, as @Smeddy said. The Zibanejad, Turris and Hoffman trades were pretty bad, but he's definitely shown a ton of improvement, both in terms of moves and his media ops. Slowly getting better.

I'm sure he had a pretty big part in drafting Chabot in 2015, which in hindsight was the start of this new sens team. His first move was trading a 3rd and 12th overall for 11th (Logan Brown). It was highly criticized at the time, but I'm more than fine with McLeod+Gignac for Brown looks pretty good for the sens right now. Bowers was a meh pick in 2017 but Batherson and Formenton were both steals in the draft and should have been first rounders. Also brought in Norris and Brannstrom from that draft. Tkachuk was a great decsion (the crow tastes great btw), and JBD looks like a really good fit for this team. Still on the fence with Thomson, but he'll really only need to be our 4th best dman and a PP triggerman.

Building through the draft is the right way to do it.

Here's a list of the 1st round picks under the sens control that are 23 or younger:

- Chabot (18th. 2015)
- White (21st, 2015)
- L. Brown (11th, 2016)
- Brannstrom (15th, 2017)
- Norris (19th, 2017)
- Tkachuk (4th, 2018)
- JBD (26th, 2018)
- Thomson (19th, 2019)
- 2020 OTT pick (1-5)
- 2020 SJ pick (1-8)
- 2020 NYI pick (13-20)

Plus guys who in a re-draft are probably 1st rounders in Batherson (121st, 2017), Formenton (47th, 2017), Pinto (32nd, 2019) and arguably Abramov (65th, 2016).

That's 15 players, not counting good NHLers like Duclair, C. Brown, and Tierney, along with support guys like Wolanin, Chlapik, Balcers, Jaros and Lajoie. Some of these guys will bust, but the quantity of talent should insulate that.

Dorion has a big part to do with all those gus being here. He's been the busiest GM in the league since being hired, some polarizing moves, but he's building the team the right way. Can't wait for the draft.

This. Awesome post!

 

[Dingle]

best thread on here.

I hope it stays active until December 2021. It will be nice to see about 1/3 of all people being wrong (one way or the other) and 1/3 being right and 1/3 not caring.

 

[TkachukNorris79]

best thread on here.

I hope it stays active until December 2021. It will be nice to see about 1/3 of all people being wrong (one way or the other) and 1/3 being right and 1/3 not caring.

it's gonna be hilarious to look back on, it always is. I expect a few of those names to bust but there are quite a few that seem pretty sure-fire as of right now.

 

[Dingle]

it's gonna be hilarious to look back on, it always is. I expect a few of those names to bust but there are quite a few that seem pretty sure-fire as of right now.

I have never seen this in pro sports. I have never seen judgment day this plain and simple. Everything is aiming at December of 2021...the organization set that date, their actions, their rhetoric, we the fans in our discussions, media, etc.

Normally, there is so much hedging of bets. That it leaves everything wide open. It is much closer to saying to someone, I will be at your place around 7, or 7ish..Here, the situation is: I will be at your place at 7:01 and 15 second...

As a result, all we have to do is wait.. should the team be in a playoff spot and appearing to be climbing...then, the Dorion doubters eat crow and the supporters will gloat. If they are not, most likely, a thread will be on here about his dismissal.

either FYOUS will be the greatest phrase since "we will not surrender" or it will be "there are no American troops in Baghdad"

 

[DaveMatthew]

I don't think Pierre Dorion has done anything more impressive than what Steve Tambellini or Craig McTavish did in Edmonton, or Don Maloney did in Arizona.

Trading away stars and amassing draft picks, while finishing at the bottom of the league, is easy.

Dorion will get credit if and when this team consistently makes the playoffs. Until then, he hasn't accomplished anything.

 

[thinkwild]

I thought the F.You's was Melnyks phrase? That meaningless, mistimed marketing slogan surely cant be the benchmark for evaluating Dorion.

In hindsight, it is clear Dorion was forced to dismantle. If he is told there is no way he will be able to sign any of the pending ufa's to long contracts so he must dump them for whatever he can get, then it seems ridiculous to point and say hey look he didnt get great value.

The tear down wasnt filled with great trades, it was filled with forced trades. Those are on Melnyk. The build up is on Dorion and it should be evaluated over the long term, not Melnyks stupid fyous

 

[Ice-Tray]

I think people are more impressed with how well the prospects we have amassed have developed so far.

The spectacular fail of SJ is nice, but the trade returns have been really nice in terms of the players we have acquired as well

Building from the net out, and establishing a strong hockey culture and style of play from day one with the right coaching staff is also a huge part of the rebuild so far.

The picks are a huge part, but several parts deep into things.

Those are the was we have differed from Arizona and Edmonton. Two HUGE ways.

 

[Dingle]

I thought the F.You's was Melnyks phrase? That meaningless, mistimed marketing slogan surely cant be the benchmark for evaluating Dorion.

In hindsight, it is clear Dorion was forced to dismantle. If he is told there is no way he will be able to sign any of the pending ufa's to long contracts so he must dump them for whatever he can get, then it seems ridiculous to point and say hey look he didn't get great value.

The tear down wasn't filled with great trades, it was filled with forced trades. Those are on Melnyk. The build up is on Dorion and it should be evaluated over the long term, not Melnyks stupid fyous

It was, but it put a target on Dorion's back!! and it put a target on the organization's back. Sadly, whether it's Dorion's fault or otherwise, if 2021 comes and the fans don't see it (Improvement)...There will be anger and I am guessing Eugene will act...and since he will not fire himself..He has DJ and Pierre. Since DJ is coach 8 in his 17 years of ownership, and Pierre is GM #3..it may fall on him.

All they had to do was talk in vague terms... All Pierre had to do, was act somber when he traded the farm... All he had to do is say, "I feel your pain"...But we need to do this for a better good. etc. Use phrases like "we are working to rebuild...etc...". But they opted for firm statements. Even Dorion can be terribly guilty of uttering "overly affirmative statements". When he trades fan favorites and then say "his best day as a GM"..OOOHHH that does not go over well.

It is ironic, we are Ottawa, the Nations capital. Home to 360 politicians, another few hundred diplomats, public servant, etc...and Melnyk and Dorion did not take a chapter from their book..Talk, but say nothing.

Heck, both of them, need to spend a week working with Gord and Dean on the broadcast. Those two can kill 20 minutes of air time and say absolutely nothing. It is practically Oscar worthy.

 

[thinkwild]

Sure Melnyk may judge Dorion on his ability to live up to Melnyk's ridiculous takes. We would expect that kind of idiocy from Melnyk. But for you and i to judge Dorion that way would bring us down to Melnyks level of stupidity.

But for sure, the best day as a GM comment probably wont age well, but that is a different thing.

 

[branch]

I don't think Pierre Dorion has done anything more impressive than what Steve Tambellini or Craig McTavish did in Edmonton, or Don Maloney did in Arizona.

Trading away stars and amassing draft picks, while finishing at the bottom of the league, is easy.

Dorion will get credit if and when this team consistently makes the playoffs. Until then, he hasn't accomplished anything.

Agreed on this. It's not hard to come up with a plan of attack when the only path forward has been made very apparent to you (e.g. trading players away/players won't sign/budget/whatever). Of course luck comes into play but that is separate I suppose.

I've been hard on Pierre in the past. But I will say he has either the patience of a saint, or the backbone comprised of a noodle from a can of Campbell's chicken soup to put up with what he has to put up with. No doubt that it has not been easy on him.

 

[Sens of Anarchy]

Agreed on this. It's not hard to come up with a plan of attack when the only path forward has been made very apparent to you (e.g. trading players away/players won't sign/budget/whatever). Of course luck comes into play but that is separate I suppose.

I've been hard on Pierre in the past. But I will say he has either the patience of a saint, or the backbone comprised of a noodle from a can of Campbell's chicken soup to put up with what he has to put up with. No doubt that it has not been easy on him.

Hey where you been? More problems with the toilet?

 

[bert]

Yeah... and who would come in his place if Dorion got fired? I guarantee you that person would be worse. Far worse.

You clearly have an objective stance on this one.