Buffalo Bills Week 5: Bills v. Steelers (Sun. 10/9, 1:00PM)

[tsujimoto74]

Continued from here

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[Dirty Dog]

I truly don’t know anything about head injuries, but gosh it’s tough to imagine that Sunday hit not being head related.

I think there needs to be some transparency on the decisions made on Sunday and Monday about Tua. The medical decision makers need to make their decisions known and explain them. I’m always going to give healthcare providers the benefits of the doubt, but they need to explain their decisions for me to do that

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[Rowley Birkin]

I truly don’t know anything about head injuries, but gosh it’s tough to imagine that Sunday hit not being head related.

I think there needs to be some transparency on the decisions made on Sunday and Monday about Tua. The medical decision makers need to make their decisions known and explain them. I’m always going to give healthcare providers the benefits of the doubt, but they need to explain their decisions for me to do that

This was kind of my point in the last thread. You can understand the heat of the moment decision during the game on Sunday. But you have to assume he was thoroughly examined/tested by medical staff during the days between the two games. How does something not show up then?

 

[Jim Bob]

This was kind of my point in the last thread. You can understand the heat of the moment decision during the game on Sunday. But you have to assume he was thoroughly examined/tested by medical staff during the days between the two games. How does something not show up then?

McDaniel defends diagnosis, decision to play Tagovailoa as injury sends QB to hospital

Miami's head coach stands by the process after the QB left Sunday's game with what were determined to be back and ankle injuries.

theathletic.com

“Absolutely not,” McDaniel said when asked if there was anything he could have, or should have, done differently after Tagovailoa was seen shaking his head, staggering and falling following a hit four days earlier in a home win against the Bills.

“That would be irresponsible in the first place, and I shouldn’t be in this position,” McDaniel added. “I do not have any — absolutely zero — patience for, or will ever put a player in position for them to be in harm’s way. That is not what I’m about at all, and no outcome of a game will ever influence me being irresponsible as the head coach of the football team.”

But McDaniel again defended each layer of the protocol that cleared the quarterback.

“It starts with your medical staff, but then there’s independent specialists that look into it, too,” he said. “There’s an entire protocol, and then you’re talking to the player as well. Probably, I don’t know, five or six different layers of a process in decision-making."

The NFLPA has to demand more transparency with this given how many people saw what happened on Sunday, called BS on the "back injury", and then everyone watched what happened last night.

McDaniel has said that an independent doctor cleared him to play. The details around that need to be released, too. And not just by McDaniel in a press conference.

 

[Jim Bob]

DeMaurice Smith vows to pursue "every legal option" regarding the handling of Tua Tagovailoa on Sunday

The biggest concern emerging from Thursday night's game between the Dolphins and Bengals is whether Miami quarterback Tua Tagovailoa should have been playing.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[tsujimoto74]

This stuff from the NFLPA coming out after last night just feels so hollow. If they actually gave a shit about the player and not just the optics, they would've been more involved/outspoken before concussion #2 happened.

 

[Jim Bob]

The "gross motor instability" loophole must be closed, immediately

Changes undoubtedly will be made to the NFL's concussion policies and protocols after last night's incident involving Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[Jim Bob]

This stuff from the NFLPA coming out after last night just feels so hollow. If they actually gave a shit about the player and not just the optics, they would've been more involved/outspoken before concussion #2 happened.

The NFLPA did demand an investigation into how Tua was allowed back into the game on Sunday.

Source: NFLPA wants review of quick Tua return

The NFLPA has told the NFL that it wants to initiate a review of the concussion protocols in light of Tua Tagovailoa's return to Sunday's game in Miami, a source told ESPN's Adam Schefter.

www.espn.com

The "gross motor instability" loophole must be closed, immediately

Changes undoubtedly will be made to the NFL's concussion policies and protocols after last night's incident involving Dolphins quarterback Tua Tagovailoa.

profootballtalk.nbcsports.com

 

[Dubi Doo]

No surprises here:

 

[Mike McDermott]

 

[brian_griffin]

Quoting posts from the prior thread...

On the media not wanting to tarnish the NFL shield:

I’m really curious to see if there will be any big time national NFL reporters or networks that will come out tonight or tomorrow morning and openly criticize the NFL or Dolphins. I know Twitter is a buzz about it and it is being condemned but I haven’t seen a major name (to me and I also don’t follow them all) do it. I really want to see it done on air or in an actual article though. I doubt it’ll happen tho. And I know for sure Rapoport won’t after his farce of a tweet last week.

The ex-NFL player panel on ESPN / Greenberg Get Up this AM were quite vocal.

On the speculation Tua claimed he was fine, or that a player's opinion matters:

I've seen a few people bring up the lawsuit thing.

No chance, unless Tua had expressed hesitence to go back into the game last week. All accounts were he wanted to play. Obviously the league (and teams) need to do a better job of protecting players from themselves, and there should be whatever punishment is possible to the team for skirting the protocol, but a lawsuit isn't happening. Basically, Tua himself was complicit in skirting the protocol. (And again, teams need to protect players from themselves, and the Dolphins didn't do it here and absolutely need to have the book thrown at them to whatever extent possible by the league)

(and)

Part of the problem is we don't know what was said by Tua to the team doctor and independent neurologist. He may have known he had head trauma but said it was his back since he had tweaked it prior and was hopeful he could get away with it. Maybe he said it was his back but only said that because he was concussed and not thinking about his well being and simply wanted to play however had he been in a proper state of mind he would have admitted to the head trauma. I don't know. They are professional athletes however that doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't protect them from themselves. Hope he makes a full recover and is able to continue his career. Other players have had the same fencing response and returned to play the same season so it's probably not career threatening simply because it looked scary however everyone's brain reacts differently and what his road to recovery may entail is to be determined.

(and)

I haven't seen the game yet.

I can understand why they threw Tua back out against the Bills last weekend. You don't have time to make a full diagnosis, it's heat of the moment, Tua reportedly insisted he was fine & wanted to get back out there. Weather you agree with it or not - it's a tough call either way.

But to put him out there last night after you have had a number of days to perform tests & make a full diagnosis? That is definitely inexcusable...

(and)

You're missing my point.

Yes it looked like a possible concussion or some type of head injury when he stumbled - but you don't have the time or the evidence to prove that or certainly the full extent of it in the heat of the moment. So when a guy is saying he is fine & wants to play - it's understandable why they would let him go back out there. Even if that turns out to be the wrong decision.

But after a number of days to perform tests & a full diagnosis - there is absolutely no excuse for having him out there.

I am being critical of the Miami organisation here. Nothing else.

You folks are missing the point (said politely). If there's an incident where a player enters the protocol, the player cannot attest they are fine and have that considered with any weight. That's why they have the protocol. It's analogous to my workplace, and hopefully your workplace / any workplace. If I have an incident, in particular one where I collapse, and especially one with apparent cause, and it's noticed by my colleagues, there is an obligation to remove me from work for evaluation by plant nurse / first responders, (and most likely transported off site for professional evaluation, but in the Tua instance those professionals are on site at the stadium). I cannot assert I am fine and return to work. One can argue it's an employer liability thing just as much as it is a benevolent desire for the medical health of the employee - which is fine to argue - but it doesn't change the substance nor the validity of the protocol.

And as for lawsuit, your take is likely incorrect. If Tua claimed (Sunday) he was okay, that does not remove the obligation from the other party (team, doctors, 3rd party spotters and doctors) to prevent him from doing more damage to himself. To my point in paragraph above, the same is true. Even if my colleagues believe me, the standard they are required to hold is to err on side of caution and not allow me to return to my job that shift.

"Not enough time for proper evaluation" & "heat of the moment" doesn't fly either. You either take the time for a proper evaluation, or you don't let him play until a proper evaluation is done. Once entering the protocol, the error must always be Alpha risk (refusing to let a healthy player play) vs. Beta risk (unknowingly letting an injured player play).

Same with claiming "back injury". If he entered the concussion protocol, even if he claims it was his back - and even if it WAS his back - the stance must be to definitively rule out his head. There is a logical difference / nuance.

Exactly. The system can’t be to rely on the opinion of the tough guy player. His is an unreliable narrative. That’s literally the point of spotters. To take that choice out of the players’ hands.

exactly

Also, as much as I doubt the NFL will change anything, maybe Tua's injury forces them to pass more stringent concussion protocols to prevent something like this from happening to someone else? One can hope

As with most outrage over "bad things that happen" in life, the issue is rarely to pass more stringent protocols / laws and rather to properly enforce the ones that exist. (Mine is a philosophical position on all facets of life. I'm not supporting the NFL, Dolphins, etc. I'm fine with more stringent protocols / laws, but only if it is irrefutably clear the existing were correctly enforced, which we will likely either never know in the Tua case, or we won't know the truth.)

 

[SundherDome]

You quote your own tweet

 

[Jim Bob]

You quote your own tweet

It's quicker than retyping it.

 

[Jim Bob]

 

[kirby11]

Can they get through even a day without multiple players either sustaining new injuries or worsening existing ones? Jeez. Terrible luck so far this season

 

[Mike McDermott]

 

[Dubi Doo]

This is awesome to see regardless of his status this week!

 

[Matt Ress]

Quoting posts from the prior thread...

On the media not wanting to tarnish the NFL shield:

The ex-NFL player panel on ESPN / Greenberg Get Up this AM were quite vocal.

On the speculation Tua claimed he was fine, or that a player's opinion matters:

(and)

(and)

(and)

You folks are missing the point (said politely). If there's an incident where a player enters the protocol, the player cannot attest they are fine and have that considered with any weight. That's why they have the protocol. It's analogous to my workplace, and hopefully your workplace / any workplace. If I have an incident, in particular one where I collapse, and especially one with apparent cause, and it's noticed by my colleagues, there is an obligation to remove me from work for evaluation by plant nurse / first responders, (and most likely transported off site for professional evaluation, but in the Tua instance those professionals are on site at the stadium). I cannot assert I am fine and return to work. One can argue it's an employer liability thing just as much as it is a benevolent desire for the medical health of the employee - which is fine to argue - but it doesn't change the substance nor the validity of the protocol.

And as for lawsuit, your take is likely incorrect. If Tua claimed (Sunday) he was okay, that does not remove the obligation from the other party (team, doctors, 3rd party spotters and doctors) to prevent him from doing more damage to himself. To my point in paragraph above, the same is true. Even if my colleagues believe me, the standard they are required to hold is to err on side of caution and not allow me to return to my job that shift.

"Not enough time for proper evaluation" & "heat of the moment" doesn't fly either. You either take the time for a proper evaluation, or you don't let him play until a proper evaluation is done. Once entering the protocol, the error must always be Alpha risk (refusing to let a healthy player play) vs. Beta risk (unknowingly letting an injured player play).

Same with claiming "back injury". If he entered the concussion protocol, even if he claims it was his back - and even if it WAS his back - the stance must be to definitively rule out his head. There is a logical difference / nuance.


exactly

As with most outrage over "bad things that happen" in life, the issue is rarely to pass more stringent protocols / laws and rather to properly enforce the ones that exist. (Mine is a philosophical position on all facets of life. I'm not supporting the NFL, Dolphins, etc. I'm fine with more stringent protocols / laws, but only if it is irrefutably clear the existing were correctly enforced, which we will likely either never know in the Tua case, or we won't know the truth.)

With their ownership, prior coaches and this nonsense, can we all just agree Miami is a mickey mouse operation

 

[Dubi Doo]

Wow. I think we can let the O line playing like trash last week slide:

 

[Jim Bob]

Can they get through even a day without multiple players either sustaining new injuries or worsening existing ones? Jeez. Terrible luck so far this season

It's funny how the injury situations with the Bills and Sabres over the past few years have played out and how the fans have reacted when things were tough, injury-wise.

 

[Rowley Birkin]

Can they get through even a day without multiple players either sustaining new injuries or worsening existing ones? Jeez. Terrible luck so far this season

To be honest they were very lucky to have so few injuries last season.

It always amazes me just how many players get hurt on a regular basis in the NFL. Always seens like most teams have key players / starters out every week.

 

[tsujimoto74]

This is awesome to see regardless of his status this week!

I hope he's healthy and ready to go on Sunday -- we could sure use him!

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

Can they get through even a day without multiple players either sustaining new injuries or worsening existing ones? Jeez. Terrible luck so far this season

They do not push recovery times, we know. One thing learned from their sports science dept. Insinuating anything else is ignorant & naive (not intended at you kirby).

Were getting healthier, I expect a few of the red jersey guys to play Sunday. But I'm not betting on Davis. Shakir and Hodgins should get touches in that case.

Maybe we get all the injuries out of the way early this season ? I hope.

 

[Buffalo Norsemen]

I hope he's healthy and ready to go on Sunday -- we could sure use him!

Jackson, Elam, Johnson, Rhodes sounds good to me this week.

Benford and Tre in a few weeks-month.

May still need a vet safety depending on how the 2 kids play.