The flyers need to decide whether they truly want to compete for a cup or just make some playoff money. If they want to compete for the cup, the need to make a more mobile puck moving defense and that will require them to move some forwards.
Post-Game Talk: Wed., Nov. 27, 2013|Flyers 2 at Lightning 4
- Thread starter MiamiScreamingEagles
- Start date
The flyers need to decide whether they truly want to compete for a cup or just make some playoff money. If they want to compete for the cup, the need to make a more mobile puck moving defense and that will require them to move some forwards.
RoDu
Registered User
then that will just make more holes up front, best not do anything that ruins our future
Correct but forwards develop faster than defensemen. It usually takes defensemen 4 NHL seasons to have an impact at both ends of the ice. Morin and Hagg won't even be hitting the NHL for a couple more seasons. So the flyers will have a great mobile defense in 5-6 years when most of their forward talent will be past their prime. Unless your Pittsburgh, you can't win in the NHL a without a top notch defense corp.
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
Among the forwards, G is the oldest at 25. In 5 years he'll be 30, most of the Flyers core won't be past their prime. In fact Schenn and Couts will be in their primes and the others in the ass end of their primes. Add in guys like Laughton and Cousins and you have a very good balance of prime and young forwards.
Flyers need to be patient.
Beef alluded to this earlier, but he was spot-on about this being an easy schedule we had a hot streak on and that we shouldn't expect much from this team overall.
I've said many, many times early this month and prior to it that November was a really easy month for us and would make or break things and it has showed. I didn't mention this during the hot streak so I could just revel in winning for a bit and because any time I criticize the team I get **** on by people around here, but that whole hot streak came against really easy competition (only tough opponent was Pittsburgh but even they were struggling at the time of the game).
This is the type of game I expect against better teams then the ones we've been facing, but I was just happy to see some wins and goals prior to this and last game. I'd be very surprised if we made the playoffs though. If we didn't have that atrocious start maybe we make it as a lower seed, but as it is even making it in general would be a surprise to me.
I've said many, many times early this month and prior to it that November was a really easy month for us and would make or break things and it has showed. I didn't mention this during the hot streak so I could just revel in winning for a bit and because any time I criticize the team I get **** on by people around here, but that whole hot streak came against really easy competition (only tough opponent was Pittsburgh but even they were struggling at the time of the game).
This is the type of game I expect against better teams then the ones we've been facing, but I was just happy to see some wins and goals prior to this and last game. I'd be very surprised if we made the playoffs though. If we didn't have that atrocious start maybe we make it as a lower seed, but as it is even making it in general would be a surprise to me.
So what gives you belief that the forward talent is anything worth being patient over when the Flyers are one of the lowest scoring teams in the league?
tymed
Registered User
Agree with this and also really feel the need to throw Leier's name in there. I've seen a lot of him this year, the kid is honestly a gem- I really see him landing a scoring role when he arrives.
Anyways about today's game.... Worst effort I've seen this season imo. Nothin to say except that Razor gave them a chance all night long-well aside from that shortsider but that was a really awkward one, he was in position.
Prongo
Beer
Jtown
Registered User
went to the game tonight down in Tampa...Sloppy plays all around. Flyers had opportunities but couldn't cash in. Plus Flyers D lack some speed. Speedy Lightning players just skated better and worked harder. Happy Thanksgiving everybody!
Harold Bingo
what
Positives: They didn't get shutout. Vinny scored in his homecoming.
Negatives: They played like crap. Hard to watch when they play like this.
Oh well, on to the next one. Happy Thanksgiving.
Negatives: They played like crap. Hard to watch when they play like this.
Oh well, on to the next one. Happy Thanksgiving.
FlyersFan61290
Registered User
The fact that virtually every one of the young guys is underporforming based on their play in recent years. Shooting percentages are super low, they won't stay that way. Plus, contrary to many around here believe, young players improve with age.
Yes, forgot about Leier. He's the type of player you win with.
Happy Thanksgiving everyone!!
Peak production for forwards is 24 to 27. So when you say young players will improve you are speaking about B Schenn and Couturier. All the other top 9 forwards are 24 and older. They will not be getting any better than they are now offensively. Maybe defensively.
http://www.arcticicehockey.com/2010/1/21/1261318/nhl-points-per-game-peak-age
Mkoll
Inkvisiittori
So I guess we can pencil in every forward, everywhere, as peaking 24-27?
The article itself says its an "estimation". Even the article isnt sure of its own data...
No but youth seems to be the number 1 excuse for the crappy play for two years running now. Chicago's forwards aren't that much older than the Flyers and they have 2 cups now. Neither is Boston's. My point is if you expect these guys besides Schenn and Couturier to vastly improve, the odds are against it.
TheKingPin
Registered User
There is no way you can predict 5 years out. It's never even close to what actually happens. This is obvious if you have ever looked at threads from awhile ago.
Claude Giroux can get as many points as he has but if he not noticeable on more than 5% of his shifts he is playing bad. Idk I personally would rather trade G. It's obvious he won't surpass expectations based on salary for the next near decade. If it means we can cleanup from a well stocked team getting a future top line player and a up and comming or future top dman I'd do it.
Claude Giroux can get as many points as he has but if he not noticeable on more than 5% of his shifts he is playing bad. Idk I personally would rather trade G. It's obvious he won't surpass expectations based on salary for the next near decade. If it means we can cleanup from a well stocked team getting a future top line player and a up and comming or future top dman I'd do it.
Appleyard
Registered User
Something else in regards to Giroux:
10-11: QoC: .821 (4th FWs) Corsi rel: 14.1, (2nd) Corsi On: 8.12, (2nd) Zone start: 49.2%, On ice sh%: 9.42
11-12: QoC: .805, (3rd FWs) Corsi rel: 6.9, (4th) Corsi On: 7.81, (4th) Zone start: 48.1%, On ice sh%: 9.41
12-13: QoC: .262, (5th FWs) Corsi rel: 9.8, (2nd) Corsi On: 0.99, (2nd) Zone start: 47.3%, On ice sh%: 9.23
13-14: QoC: 1.063 (3rd FWs) Corsi rel: 6.2 (4th) Corsi On: 2.63, (4th) Zone start: 52.2%, On ice sh%: 6.04
As you can see, his QoC, and Corsi is pretty much in line with where he has been year by year (in terms of position on the team amongst forwards.) Though this year he is maybe getting the worst QoC he has faced he is also getting more good zone starts... which even out to make his minutes ~equal to how they have been over the last three years.
(Everyones Corsi On being so much worse but with similar Corsi rel to two years ago would simply indicate the team this year and last has just been worse than before as a whole!)
Therefore the only real outlier in his advanced performance is the shot % this year while he is on the ice. The only people worse on the team in on ice shot % are Hartnell, Voracek and Rinaldo... Hartnell and Voracek being there is pretty telling.
His PDO is also the lowest among forwards (after Raffl).
If the shot % was normal as it has been for the last 3 years (9.2-9.4) that would represent a ~3.3 raise in shot % when he is on ice. Considering the Flyers have had 708 shots... and Giroux has been on the ice for circa 220-250 (based off his TOI, PP time and % of offensive production per year (circa 30%)), if his on ice shot % was 'normal' that would be an extra 7-8 goals while he was on the ice so far this year.
That would put him ~PPG this year if the on ice sh% was the same as previously. Ofc some of that is his sh% being down... but it would seem to indicate he is playing at an equivalent level to usual... just having little puck luck so far.
10-11: QoC: .821 (4th FWs) Corsi rel: 14.1, (2nd) Corsi On: 8.12, (2nd) Zone start: 49.2%, On ice sh%: 9.42
11-12: QoC: .805, (3rd FWs) Corsi rel: 6.9, (4th) Corsi On: 7.81, (4th) Zone start: 48.1%, On ice sh%: 9.41
12-13: QoC: .262, (5th FWs) Corsi rel: 9.8, (2nd) Corsi On: 0.99, (2nd) Zone start: 47.3%, On ice sh%: 9.23
13-14: QoC: 1.063 (3rd FWs) Corsi rel: 6.2 (4th) Corsi On: 2.63, (4th) Zone start: 52.2%, On ice sh%: 6.04
As you can see, his QoC, and Corsi is pretty much in line with where he has been year by year (in terms of position on the team amongst forwards.) Though this year he is maybe getting the worst QoC he has faced he is also getting more good zone starts... which even out to make his minutes ~equal to how they have been over the last three years.
(Everyones Corsi On being so much worse but with similar Corsi rel to two years ago would simply indicate the team this year and last has just been worse than before as a whole!)
Therefore the only real outlier in his advanced performance is the shot % this year while he is on the ice. The only people worse on the team in on ice shot % are Hartnell, Voracek and Rinaldo... Hartnell and Voracek being there is pretty telling.
His PDO is also the lowest among forwards (after Raffl).
If the shot % was normal as it has been for the last 3 years (9.2-9.4) that would represent a ~3.3 raise in shot % when he is on ice. Considering the Flyers have had 708 shots... and Giroux has been on the ice for circa 220-250 (based off his TOI, PP time and % of offensive production per year (circa 30%)), if his on ice shot % was 'normal' that would be an extra 7-8 goals while he was on the ice so far this year.
That would put him ~PPG this year if the on ice sh% was the same as previously. Ofc some of that is his sh% being down... but it would seem to indicate he is playing at an equivalent level to usual... just having little puck luck so far.
Giroux has morphed into Briere. The backcheck effort on the short hand goal last night was inexcusable for anybody let alone the captain. I don't think the Flyers should trade him but if they intend to keep him, they are going to have to change the talent around him to more two way players. Right now both the 1st and 2nd lines are liabilities against tight checking teams. The Flyers are lucky they don't play in the west where the checking is tighter because they would be another Edmonton out there.
Prongo
Beer
Haha, you're a cool dude, Prongo. Have a Happy Thanksgiving man!
Hope you enjoy the day as well.
Hopefully everyone has someone to spend the holidays with.
Also, we need Bobby Ryan.
dats81
Registered User
Appleyard
Registered User
Jake had that man all the way until he decided to stop skating... completely understandable why G was not going to the post or anything...it looked like Jake had him.
But he is not a bad defensive centre... simply average who can PK pretty well.
Though there have been a few times this year where he did lose his man, or cheat, that one was not really his.
The first line has Jake and G who are average to above average defensively... but Hartnell has been abysmal at both ends of the ice.
In regards to the 2nd line I would say that Schenn is above average defensively, Simmonds average... but Vinny blows defensively so far, make so many silly plays and turnovers... pretty much backs up his advanced defensive stats since they began recording them and his +/-! But has made up for it by playing well offensively.
