We need offense, but from the defense too...

[Michelangelo]

Therrien: Safe plays > Risky plays

Low risk, low reward

 

[TYLENOL]

You mean the blueline he inherited? Markov, P.k, NB and Emelin were already in place, or in the system. Pierre Gauthier signed Pateryn. Tinordi still hasn't made an impression, and the Petry trade was a good one in my mind.

Bergevin managed to sprinkle in some players here and there, but the blueline was already decent, he hasn't exactly brought it to an illustrious standard. Previous management did this for him. What exactly are you referring to when you say MB built this team from the 'back end first'?




Again, neither players were MB draft picks or signing.



Oh, btw, Jacob De La Rose was acquired by Pierre Gauthier. The remainder of our youth core (Gallagher) was already in place too... although MB managed to ship off Collberg for Vanek. Of course Galchenyuk has potential to be amazing, but time will tell.



So, again, what has MB delivered to make this team a 'legit contender'? He inherited a very solid core, he hasn't exactly proven anything yet. Carey Price makes this team a contender, but that has nothing to do with MB. I still believe Timmins is the most important person in this management team, not Bergevin.

Get your facts straight if your going to go on such a rant! De La Rose was picked and developped by Bergevin and his staff, not Gauthier!

 

[TYLENOL]

Therrien: Safe plays > Risky plays

Low risk, low reward

Valium = A typical habs game!

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Get your facts straight if your going to go on such a rant! De La Rose was picked and developped by Bergevin and his staff, not Gauthier!

The De la Rose draft pick was picked up by Gauthier in the Kostitsyn trade, not by Bergevin. Credit for DLR goes to Timmins obviously, but Gauthier was the one who got the Habs that pick.

 

[WeThreeKings]

Trading for Petry was a mistake and a waste of assets. Pretty much like every time we've traded a 2nd round pick in the Timmins regime..

The need was goal scoring.. not really going to give up less goals than a historic season by Price, so it was really an abundance in an area where we weren't struggling.

 

[Leon Lucius Black]

Trading for Petry was a mistake and a waste of assets. Pretty much like every time we've traded a 2nd round pick in the Timmins regime..

The need was goal scoring.. not really going to give up less goals than a historic season by Price, so it was really an abundance in an area where we weren't struggling.

Having Emelin, Gilbert, Beaulieu, Gonchar, Pateryn and Weaver to fill in the bottom 4 D is fine especially after we had garbage like Bouillon/Murray playing last year in the playoffs... add in having the best goalie in the world and you don't even need a world class defense.

When DD/PAP are in your top 6 and you have no one else (maybe Eller) who can play top 6 minutes it is ridiculous that the only forward additions were a couple of plugs who played on Buffalo's fourth line.

 

[OldCraig71]

Having Emelin, Gilbert, Beaulieu, Gonchar, Pateryn and Weaver to fill in the bottom 4 D is fine especially after we had garbage like Bouillon/Murray playing last year in the playoffs... add in having the best goalie in the world and you don't even need a world class defense.

When DD/PAP are in your top 6 and you have no one else (maybe Eller) who can play top 6 minutes it is ridiculous that the only forward additions were a couple of plugs who played on Buffalo's fourth line.

That's what I find the most frustrating as well. Why would he trade for more of what we already have, we needed scoring and he either could not get it or simply felt like we had all we needed.

 

[montreal]

We've been talking about our forwards not scoring enough, but what about the D? With Subban and Markov scoring many goals, we should be pretty high in the standings, but nope...

been banging that drum all season long, that's why I was so disappointed at the trade deadline, wanted Yandle in the worst way as I really thought he could help our PP and would give us 3 scoring blueliners.

 

[NotProkofievian]

This is hilarious everyone thinks that mt is holding the habs offense back .... look at our top 6 lol we are lucky he is getting this much. Let's say ideally you have Pac-galchenyuk -gally that leaves you with DD -plek - PAP for the rest of top 6 ewww and as much as most argue Eller isn't a top 6.

Watch the games, not the lineup sheet. You cannot seriously tell me that we're getting the most we possibly can out of this roster. How can you have 4 top 4 puck moving defensemen, have trouble exiting your zone with speed, and not have a systems issue? This is some of the worst hockey I've ever seen a habs team play, and it shows when we play fast, well coached teams.

 

[Lshap]

Watch the games, not the lineup sheet. You cannot seriously tell me that we're getting the most we possibly can out of this roster. How can you have 4 top 4 puck moving defensemen, have trouble exiting your zone with speed, and not have a systems issue? This is some of the worst hockey I've ever seen a habs team play, and it shows when we play fast, well coached teams.

I agree with you about the defence. The gap between high-end talent and low-end execution drives me crazy. With so much back-end skill, our D should be driving the offence much more than it is. I agree it's a system issue, though I'd place more blame on Daigneault, whose entire portfolio involves structuring our dmen.

But still, our forwards have a chronic problem shooting and finishing around the net, and no system can magically fix that. Yes, we've got good depth guys who can ideally chip in offensively, but that scoring-by-committee strategy only works with two dmen directing traffic, who can also fire lasers and score occasionally.

 

[Lshap]

You mean the blueline he inherited? Markov, P.k, NB and Emelin were already in place, or in the system. Pierre Gauthier signed Pateryn. Tinordi still hasn't made an impression, and the Petry trade was a good one in my mind.

Bergevin managed to sprinkle in some players here and there, but the blueline was already decent, he hasn't exactly brought it to an illustrious standard. Previous management did this for him. What exactly are you referring to when you say MB built this team from the 'back end first'?

Again, neither players were MB draft picks or signing.

Oh, btw, Jacob De La Rose was acquired by Pierre Gauthier. The remainder of our youth core (Gallagher) was already in place too... although MB managed to ship off Collberg for Vanek. Of course Galchenyuk has potential to be amazing, but time will tell.

So, again, what has MB delivered to make this team a 'legit contender'? He inherited a very solid core, he hasn't exactly proven anything yet. Carey Price makes this team a contender, but that has nothing to do with MB. I still believe Timmins is the most important person in this management team, not Bergevin.

You seem to think our roster should be filled with the 17 to 21 year-old players drafted during Bergevin's tenure. Totally unrealistic. Our current roster reflects the previous admin, just as the roster in three/four years will reflect Bergevin's. That's how it works.

The real measure of Bergevin's job is how he's handled the incoming prospects and existing vets, and what moves he's made to supplement the roster. Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Pateryn, Beaulieu, De la Rose are all prospects who've been given full-time roles, with many others getting serious looks. Tinordi is the biggest question-mark for me, but there's too much I don't know behind the scenes to have an informed opinion. Overall, there are a lot of young, new faces on this team, with more to come.

His vet signings have been done with an eye towards balancing short and long-term contracts and keeping cap space. Like Subban's contract or not, he's signed and he's ours, as are the other core players. This off-season will be a big test, with so many new contracts coming due, but even with a couple of questionable contracts, he's done a good fiscal job and kept our options open.

I would've liked a big-ticket forward signing, but I don't know who Bergevin pursued and who he would've had to give back. Was he too conservative? Was he smart to avoid overpayment? No way to know. I do know he's combined draft picks and trades to assemble a great core of dmen. Now he needs to focus on the forwards. Good depth, but not enough finish.

Overall, the real test of Bergevin's vision comes in the playoffs, where Petry, DSP, Mitchell, Flynn, DLR, and Pateryn will be the ultimate grade for his GM radar for this season.

 

[Habs]

You seem to think our roster should be filled with the 17 to 21 year-old players drafted during Bergevin's tenure. Totally unrealistic. Our current roster reflects the previous admin, just as the roster in three/four years will reflect Bergevin's. That's how it works.

Not at all. I'm just not buying into the hype MB has gathered. He has brought in a slew of underperforming, 4th line players. People talk as if he has somehow built this team. He hasn't.

The real measure of Bergevin's job is how he's handled the incoming prospects and existing vets, and what moves he's made to supplement the roster. Gallagher, Galchenyuk, Pateryn, Beaulieu, De la Rose are all prospects who've been given full-time roles, with many others getting serious looks. Tinordi is the biggest question-mark for me, but there's too much I don't know behind the scenes to have an informed opinion. Overall, there are a lot of young, new faces on this team, with more to come.

I disagree. I think the credit, and failure of prospects rests more on Timmins shoulders, and even Therrien. I'm not saying I'm right, but this is how I feel.

His vet signings have been done with an eye towards balancing short and long-term contracts and keeping cap space.

There are people in the front office who handle contracts, people with MBA's. MB couldn't solve 2 sides of a rubic's cube, never mind balance the contracts.

Like Subban's contract or not, he's signed and he's ours, as are the other core players. This off-season will be a big test, with so many new contracts coming due, but even with a couple of questionable contracts, he's done a good fiscal job and kept our options open.

I'm fine with it

I would've liked a big-ticket forward signing, but I don't know who Bergevin pursued and who he would've had to give back. Was he too conservative? Was he smart to avoid overpayment? No way to know. I do know he's combined draft picks and trades to assemble a great core of dmen. Now he needs to focus on the forwards. Good depth, but not enough finish.

Just the daily life of any GM though...

Overall, the real test of Bergevin's vision comes in the playoffs, where Petry, DSP, Mitchell, Flynn, DLR, and Pateryn will be the ultimate grade for his GM radar for this season.

I agree.

 

[Lshap]

Not at all. I'm just not buying into the hype MB has gathered. He has brought in a slew of underperforming, 4th line players. People talk as if he has somehow built this team. He hasn't.

You're right, he hasn't built the team, but he has managed it. That's why he's a General Manager, and not a General Contractor. The bottom line is whether another GM could have used the same pieces he inherited to create an even better team. It's possible, I guess, but hard to imagine, given that the Habs are stronger in the Bergevin era than they've been in 20 years. Maybe Bergevin is the beneficiary of a roster that was headed for the top of the standings, no matter who was GM. But I doubt it.

I disagree. I think the credit, and failure of prospects rests more on Timmins shoulders, and even Therrien. I'm not saying I'm right, but this is how I feel.

There are people in the front office who handle contracts, people with MBA's. MB couldn't solve 2 sides of a rubic's cube, never mind balance the contracts.

Actually, that's the part of the job we didn't cover: Delegating. Obviously GMs aren't expected to scout, coach and crunch numbers themselves. Every GM hires the best people, delegates responsibilities, and oversees the progress of all the portfolios. Is Bergevin a good delegator? Mostly he is, with a couple of caveats. Dudley, Waite, Carrière and Mellanby were good hires and have done a good job. Lacroix and Jodoin... don't know enough to judge. I have doubts about Daigneault's defensive structures, and honestly don't want to touch the Therrien question in this thread. Timmins is obviously the key holdover from the previous admin, but his drafting strategy must align with Bergevin's vision for his team. Their three drafts thus far look very good, but we're two to four years away from seeing what those crops yield.

 

[Habs]

You're right, he hasn't built the team, but he has managed it. That's why he's a General Manager, and not a General Contractor. The bottom line is whether another GM could have used the same pieces he inherited to create an even better team. It's possible, I guess, but hard to imagine, given that the Habs are stronger in the Bergevin era than they've been in 20 years. Maybe Bergevin is the beneficiary of a roster that was headed for the top of the standings, no matter who was GM. But I doubt it.



Actually, that's the part of the job we didn't cover: Delegating. Obviously GMs aren't expected to scout, coach and crunch numbers themselves. Every GM hires the best people, delegates responsibilities, and oversees the progress of all the portfolios. Is Bergevin a good delegator? Mostly he is, with a couple of caveats. Dudley, Waite, Carrière and Mellanby were good hires and have done a good job. Lacroix and Jodoin... don't know enough to judge. I have doubts about Daigneault's defensive structures, and honestly don't want to touch the Therrien question in this thread. Timmins is obviously the key holdover from the previous admin, but his drafting strategy must align with Bergevin's vision for his team. Their three drafts thus far look very good, but we're two to four years away from seeing what those crops yield.

So I guess we will agree to disagree?
\

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

This is hilarious everyone thinks that mt is holding the habs offense back .... look at our top 6 lol we are lucky he is getting this much. Let's say ideally you have Pac-galchenyuk -gally that leaves you with DD -plek - PAP for the rest of top 6 ewww and as much as most argue Eller isn't a top 6.

MT is the one playing DD in our top six to begin with... again, you can't use a bad decision by the coach to defend him. Our top 6 sucks because our coach puts inferior players on the top line. That's not a roster problem.

Therrien: Safe plays > Risky plays

Low risk, low reward

The biggest risk in life is not taking one. And the same holds true in hockey. Chip and chase may not seem like a bad idea once in a while to mitigate risk but when you do it all the time it's not going to work. And we've seen this all year long.

 

[NotProkofievian]

I agree with you about the defence. The gap between high-end talent and low-end execution drives me crazy. With so much back-end skill, our D should be driving the offence much more than it is. I agree it's a system issue, though I'd place more blame on Daigneault, whose entire portfolio involves structuring our dmen.

But still, our forwards have a chronic problem shooting and finishing around the net, and no system can magically fix that. Yes, we've got good depth guys who can ideally chip in offensively, but that scoring-by-committee strategy only works with two dmen directing traffic, who can also fire lasers and score occasionally.

I think one has a lot to do with the other. We can't exit our zone with speed, so the forwards have a tough time carrying the puck into the opponent's zone, so most of the time they have to dump it in. Most of the times they dump it in, there's no pressure behind it because the other forwards have gone for a line change, exhausted from merely leaving our zone. Of course our forward lineup could be a lot better, but I've seen it be a lot worse, while looking a lot better.

 

[Baruch]

The biggest risk in life is not taking one. And the same holds true in hockey. Chip and chase may not seem like a bad idea once in a while to mitigate risk but when you do it all the time it's not going to work. And we've seen this all year long.

Playing 'not to lose' instead of playing to win.
I know it's cliché, but I have rarely seen the Habs play that much like they didn't want to lose.

About the defense though...

Emelin has meh propension to contribute in the O-zone.

Others are first years in Da system, or rookies (I'll include Beaulieu in that category, seeing as it always seems he is based on how he's treated...):
-Petry
-Gilbert
-Gonchar
-Beaulieu
-Pateryn
-Tinordi

We really don't have a defenseman that has stayed with the big club for a couple of years full time besides 74-76-79...

Isn't that a possible (part of) explanation?

 

[Rapala]

Coaching staff don't want the D to make risky play, so they almost never shoot.

I hope we have a secret strategy for the playoffs.

The problem goes far deeper than that. MT's Hail Mary fly the zone strategy does not allow for our Dmen to jump gaps. You will only see that with tight support type puck moving offenses. Not even close to what we deploy. So we don't jump our D to create odd man situations, and we rarely pinch, and we almost never poach the high slot. We are so predictable we never open lanes and are forced to play ring around the rosy...

 

[billy piton]

We've been talking about our forwards not scoring enough, but what about the D? With Subban and Markov scoring many goals, we should be pretty high in the standings, but nope.


Subban and Markov share 72% of the goals from the defense group.


Then we have :


Emelin (3G - 63GP)
Gilbert (3G - 69GP)
Gonchar (1G - 44GP)
Petry (1G - 14GP)
Beaulieu (1G - 59GP)
Pateryn (0G - 15GP)
Tinordi (0G - 13GP)
Weaver (0G - 31GP)


for a grand total of... 9 goals.


Most playoff teams have at least a third defenseman that can scores 6-7 goals in a season, and if they don't have such player, then they usually have a bunch of 2-3-4 goals defensemen.


I can't even imagine losing Subban or Markov for 20-25 games...

well, it's easy. it is USAGE again.

when you compare offensive zone starts among d-men who played at least 500 minutes, subban (519) and markov (419) are both top 10 in the league. next hab on the list is 103th, but thats jeff petry who played only 14 games for us. so the next one is emelin at 120th place, then gilbert (130th), then beaulieu (158th), then gonchar (176th) out of 199 d-men that played more than 500 minutes.

on the other hand, st. louis, chicago, nashville, rangers, stars all have five in top 120 (where 3rd hab is placed).
kings, washington and detroit have six and anaheim seven of them in top 120.


just like in eller/desharnais case - every d-man other than markov and subban are deployed heavily defensively. but in this case, those two are producing @ acceptable rate.

fun fact:
markov + subban = 1010 offensive zone starts
emelin + gilbert+ beaulieu + gonchar = 986 offensive zone starts

markov + subban = 57 es points
emelin + gilbert+ beaulieu + gonchar= 41 es points

so the gap isn't that big, is it?



source: http://stats.hockeyanalysis.com/rat...&teamid=0&type=fenwick&sort=OZFO&sortdir=DESC

 

[CGG]

The actual problem is this:

Eller 72-12-12-24
Parenteau 51-7-12-19
Prust 77-4-13-17
Sekac 50-7-9-16
De La Rose 28-3-2-5
Bournival 29-3-2-5
Malhotra 57-1-3-4
Andrighetto 12-2-1-3
Bourque 13-0-2-2
Thomas 18-1-0-1
Smith-Pelly 15-0-1-1
Mitchell 10-0-0-0
Flynn 7-0-0-0

Terrible production from bottom 6 forwards. If you have woefully disappointing Parenteau on the 2nd line, then assume Prust-Eller-Weise for a 3rd line with below average productio, you're left with picking 3 guys on the 4th line out of the rest of that pile (Bourque and Sekac gone, obviously) who have put up a staggering 19 points in 176 games played.

That group has 8 ES goals scored on a goalie this season. Bournival (3), Andrighetto (2) and Thomas (1) are in the AHL. That leaves 2 - one by De La Rose, one by Malhotra.

Add 10 goals from bottom 6 forwards this year and the Habs are in excellent shape. Mitchell and Flynn were supposed to help, but haven't yet.

Petry has been incredibly good since he got here, but we still can't get offense from the bottom 6, even after permanently demoting Malhotra out of the lineup.

 

[billy piton]

The actual problem is this:

Eller 72-12-12-24
Parenteau 51-7-12-19
Prust 77-4-13-17
Sekac 50-7-9-16
De La Rose 28-3-2-5
Bournival 29-3-2-5
Malhotra 57-1-3-4
Andrighetto 12-2-1-3
Bourque 13-0-2-2
Thomas 18-1-0-1
Smith-Pelly 15-0-1-1
Mitchell 10-0-0-0
Flynn 7-0-0-0

Terrible production from bottom 6 forwards. If you have woefully disappointing Parenteau on the 2nd line, then assume Prust-Eller-Weise for a 3rd line with below average productio, you're left with picking 3 guys on the 4th line out of the rest of that pile (Bourque and Sekac gone, obviously) who have put up a staggering 19 points in 176 games played.

That group has 8 ES goals scored on a goalie this season. Bournival (3), Andrighetto (2) and Thomas (1) are in the AHL. That leaves 2 - one by De La Rose, one by Malhotra.

Add 10 goals from bottom 6 forwards this year and the Habs are in excellent shape. Mitchell and Flynn were supposed to help, but haven't yet.

Petry has been incredibly good since he got here, but we still can't get offense from the bottom 6, even after permanently demoting Malhotra out of the lineup.

you're wrong. our bottom 6 is deployed so heavily defensively and you can't expect much more production from them.

the issue is desharnais, with 388 offensive zone starts 5on5, ton of pp time and only 13 goals. eller has 12 goals with 207 offensive zone starts and basically zero pp time.

out of 383 players that played at least 750 minutes, our bottom six guys are ranked in offensive zone percentage like this:

307. wiese
365. eller
368. sekač
375. prust

malhotra is even worse in that department but he didn't play 750 minutes. not easy to produce with this kind of numbers.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

your wish is Petry's command!

 

[JayKing]

The system doesn't allow the defensemen to go low enough in the slot.

 

[Non Player Canadiens]

your wish is Gilbert's command!

 

[tinyzombies]

If the Jets miss the playoffs, Byfuglien will probably be available. I'm sure Bergie knows him.