Series Talk: WCSF: Colorado Avalanche (C3) vs Dallas Stars (C1) | Stars win 4-2

Winner Winner?

  • Col in 4

    Votes: 10 6.5%
  • Col in 5

    Votes: 21 13.7%
  • Col in 6

    Votes: 76 49.7%
  • Col in 7

    Votes: 10 6.5%
  • Dal in 4

    Votes: 9 5.9%
  • Dal in 5

    Votes: 5 3.3%
  • Dal in 6

    Votes: 12 7.8%
  • Dal in 7

    Votes: 10 6.5%

  • Total voters
    153
  • Poll closed .

Foppa2118

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Oct 3, 2003
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My Reasons For The Avs Loss (in order of importance)

Avs Stars Weren’t Stars

MacKinnon didn’t look right all playoffs. Something was very off. Just missing that intensity and power element to his game. Played like his dog had died or something. Better the last couple games, but he also played better in almost every regular season game this year. Wasn’t Dallas either, he looked the same against Winnipeg. Just didn’t skate and compete like normal. He laid back and tried to read the play, instead of moving his feet and causing the other team to react to him like he usually does. Very strange for a guy known to step up in the playoffs. Very clearly a mental thing. Proof is when he scored his goal in game 5, he suddenly had some very noticeable jump he didn’t have before.

Mikko didn’t really look right all season. Got by on his supreme talent. Same with Nate, it was too little too late in the playoffs. Also very clearly a mental thing. Just like after Nate’s goal, when Mikko scored his goal in game 6, he had a noticeable jump in his step he didn’t before, but it didn’t last more than a couple shifts.

These guys got in their own heads, and then when they had some success it gave them some brief confidence, and they played like normal. But it should have come before that.

Not Enough Compete

The Avs simply got out competed by Dallas. Especially early. And especially to start games in the first period, where they usually gave up the first goal.

The fact they were arguably the better team in the last couple games, shows it wasn’t a systems issue, or a lack of ability to beat Dallas, they just didn’t work for it.

They were slow in their decision making, slow in their passing, slow in their shots. Before the last couple games, they were slow when they had plenty of room to skate.

They just didn’t play with enough pace, and again it wasn’t Dallas, because at the end of the series they did play with pace. That wouldn't be the case at the end of a series if the other team was slowing them down. It would just be more effective against them, because by then they'd be tired from a long series on top of what the opposition was doing.

Missed Chances

So many missed chances in this series. Again this stems from compete level. When you compete you bear down on your chances, and fire the puck through the net. When you don’t, you miss wide open nets, on your best opportunities.

Avs struggled with this in the last game especially. 3 or 4 grade A chance they could have scored on but didn’t. A couple from Lehky. One from Mikko. One or two others. Then in OT they look like they tightened up, afraid to play their usual aggresive game, because now one mistake could end their season. Dallas could afford to make a mistake so they played more loose.

3rd Line Wasn’t Good Enough

Colton and Wood just weren’t a factor often enough. A few shifts here and there, but in the playoffs, especially if your top guys are getting shut down, you need your 3rd line stepping up. We’ve seen this countless times from teams that made deep runs. The 3rd line is a consistent positive factor, and they just weren’t often enough in these playoffs.

Not Enough Big Bodies Playing Heavy

Duhaime and Manson were the only ones playing a playoff style heavy game. Like a repeat from last year, Val let the team down again unfortunately, and they desperately needed a big forward to drive the net, screen a goalie playing well, get deflections, and score some ugly goals against a team playing well defensively.

Wood played too much on the perimeter IMO. He’s one of the few big bodies on this team. They needed him causing more havoc in front of the net. Even if he didn’t score, he’d still help the team by playing there more often. Generating momentum, getting the opposition off their game, and drawing penalties for their PP to be the difference in a game.

Not Enough Offense From D Core (aside from Makar)

This used to be a strength of this team. Now it’s a weakness. Without Cale, they have essentially no offense from defenseman anymore. If something happens to him they're screwed.

Toews didn’t play like he wanted to score a goal all playoffs. Girard played well for the most part, but his shot is simply too easy to block or save, so nothing ever comes from it. Walker was a total non factor in pretty much all the games after the first couple after the deadline. JJ we can’t expect offense from. Manson is their 2nd best offensive defenseman and that simply can’t be the case.

Manson - 11 GP - 2 goals - 7 points
Toews - 10 GP - 1 goal - 6 points
Girard - 9 GP - 0 goals - 3 points
Walker - 11 GP - 0 goals - 0 points
Johnson - 11 GP - 0 goals - 0 points
Jones - 3 GP - 0 goals - 0 points

The real problem here is that they don’t have enough money or assets to really fix this problem, and they’re not gonna have a high enough draft pick to address it without getting lucky either.

D Core Not Hard Enough To Play Against

The Avs defense got muscled around a bit too much against Dallas, specifically Benn. I’m not sure if they’ll do it, but they really need to tweak the D core IMO. They need another big body that can skate so they can play in the top 4 like Manson.

They can get away without it during the regular season, but that’s not real hockey. That hockey that has been manufactured to create goals, by taking away tools defenseman are still able to use in the playoffs. The playoffs are hockey like they’ve always been played and require what they’ve always required to win.

Conclusion

The Avs didn’t lose because of coaching or systems. They didn’t lose because of goaltending. These are popular narratives, and narratives don't die off easily here, but they weren’t the difference. Dallas played great, and deserved to win, but the Avs beat themselves again.

They lost this series early on by putting themselves in a hole. They played well enough to win at the end of the series, but it was too little too late.

Reminded me of the Vegas series loss. Didn’t compete in the early and middle portion, then found their legs, and found their game late, but because of the hole they put themselves in, they didn’t give themselves any margin for error. A blown back check or a breakdown was enough to end their season.

Landy can't come back soon enough. This team desperately needed his leadership during games this year. The other guys tried to step up in his absence, but they just couldn't fill the void. Anotehr long season. Avs core has some soul searching to do, and CMac has some tweaks to make.
 

the_fan

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This is where I disagree. You have to trust your 4th line regardless of what it is so your top stars are not running on fumes.

Watch the overtimes in game 6. The Avs top guys had NOTHING left. The 4th line got one shift in both OTs combined. They didn't even hit 10 minutes of TOI in a 90 minute game. That's the equivalent of playing them ~6 minutes in a regulation game.

Bednar has to be told by management that his "ride the top guys into the ground" strategy is over. It simply cannot continue.
Management did its job, again it was the injuries and Nuke situation which is not CMac’s fault. Bednar couldn’t trust that 4th line because we didn’t have Trenin, LOC, Nuke.

If we had LOC, Trenin, Val (not counting Landy) Bednar would have more trustworthy 4th line to put out there.

Duhaime-Wagner-Cogs which what we had in game 6

Vs

Parise-Trenin-Duhaime/Cogs/Kivi

Then our 3rd line would have been

LOC-Colton-Wood

Bednar could have given this lines more ice time which would make a difference
 

henchman21

Mr. Meeseeks
Feb 24, 2012
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Management did its job, again it was the injuries and Nuke situation which is not CMac’s fault. Bednar couldn’t trust that 4th line because we didn’t have Trenin, LOC, Nuke.

If we had LOC, Trenin, Val (not counting Landy) Bednar would have more trustworthy 4th line to put out there.

Duhaime-Wagner-Cogs which what we had in game 6

Vs

Parise-Trenin-Duhaime/Cogs/Kivi

Then our 3rd line would have been

LOC-Colton-Wood

Bednar could have given this lines more ice time which would make a difference
The extra piece between Trenin/Duhaime was brought in because LOC was out for the season not in addition to.

I don't blame CMac for this year, he tried and the team just didn't have it. He deserves props for that. Now if he counts on Nuke for another season, that's completely on CMac.
 

the_fan

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The extra piece between Trenin/Duhaime was brought in because LOC was out for the season not in addition to.

I don't blame CMac for this year, he tried and the team just didn't have it. He deserves props for that. Now if he counts on Nuke for another season, that's completely on CMac.
Regardless, people wondering why Bednar didn’t play the 4th line more in game 6, it’s because there was an AHL center in Wagner, Cogs who’s on his last legs and should probably retire and Duhaime on that line

How can you blame Bednar for not trusting that line? If we had even LOC healthy it would make a difference. If we had LOC and Val and Trenin even if we didn’t trade for Duhaime, we’d still have much more depth to roll 4 lines. Pretty sure we’d still trade for Trenin even if LOC was healthy because we needed a 4C
 

henchman21

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Regardless, people wondering why Bednar didn’t play the 4th line more in game 6, it’s because there was an AHL center in Wagner, Cogs who’s on his last legs and should probably retire and Duhaime on that line

How can you blame Bednar for not trusting that line? If we had even LOC healthy it would make a difference. If we had LOC and Val and Trenin even if we didn’t trade for Duhaime, we’d still have much more depth to roll 4 lines. Pretty sure we’d still trade for Trenin even if LOC was healthy because we needed a 4C
In game 6, the minutes were just about trying to win and hold on. Through the playoffs it was about winning that game. Through the season it was about winning each. Bednar doesn’t take the long game in this. It is each game trying to win, not matter how much it matters. Game 54 is treated the same at game 6 in a series and that leads to burnout. A bigger reason the top guys were done in that last game was playing 23 minutes a night in Dec/Jan. That’s where the mistake has been the last two years.

Doesn’t matter though, Avs were not deep enough to beat Dallas and that stems from poor drafting for years.
 
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dahrougem2

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In game 6, the minutes were just about trying to win and hold on. Through the playoffs it was about winning that game. Through the season it was about winning each. Bednar doesn’t take the long game in this. It is each game trying to win, not matter how much it matters. Game 54 is treated the same at game 6 in a series and that leads to burnout. A bigger reason the top guys were done in that last game was playing 23 minutes a night in Dec/Jan. That’s where the mistake has been the last two years.

Doesn’t matter though, Avs were not deep enough to beat Dallas and that stems from poor drafting for years.
It is something the Avs FO has to sit him down and demand he change during exit meetings. This cannot continue. It is insanity.
 

henchman21

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It is something the Avs FO has to sit him down and demand he change during exit meetings. This cannot continue. It is insanity.

Yeah absolutely can’t stand it. Regular season just doesn’t matter as much and shouldn’t be treated as such. Get in the playoffs with a fresh of legs as possible. Who cares if it is in the wild card spot?
 

dahrougem2

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Yeah absolutely can’t stand it. Regular season just doesn’t matter as much and shouldn’t be treated as such. Get in the playoffs with a fresh of legs as possible. Who cares if it is in the wild card spot?
Something tells me he will continue to do it even with a great roster. Idk what got into him from 2022 until now but he is IMO the worst coach in the league for overplaying guys and it isn't close.
 
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henchman21

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Something tells me he will continue to do it even with a great roster. Idk what got into him from 2022 until now but he is IMO the worst coach in the league for overplaying guys and it isn't close.
I think he is so competitive he can’t help himself.
 

the_fan

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Doesn’t matter though, Avs were not deep enough to beat Dallas and that stems from poor drafting for years.
All the games in the series other than game 4 were close games. I for one believe if we had a full healthy lineup, we could beat them. We’re talking 1 goal games in all but one of their wins which was game 4. Game 3 ended 4-1 but they scored 2 empty netters. I mean we can go on and on about this and it’s over and done with. Still though, teams that win the cup are the ones that stay healthy and don’t lose key player.
 

henchman21

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All the games in the series other than game 4 were close games. I for one believe if we had a full healthy lineup, we could beat them. We’re talking 1 goal games in all but one of their wins which was game 4. Game 3 ended 4-1 but they scored 2 empty netters. I mean we can go on and on about this and it’s over and done with. Still though, teams that win the cup are the ones that stay healthy and don’t lose key player.
Dallas had Hintz, Marchment, and Hakanpaa out in the series. That isn’t radically different. There’s a real case if Hintz was healthy the Stars end it in 5. Even a case with how they dominated OT in game 1, they were a play away from sweeping. Seguin certainly wasn’t healthy either. It isn’t like injuries/suspension was in one side.

IMO Avs simply lost to a better team. Stars were deeper up front, had a much better goalie, and had better coaching. Even the 5D were overall better. Just a tip you cap moment and never see Nuke again in Denver.
 

the_fan

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Dallas had Hintz, Marchment, and Hakanpaa out in the series. That isn’t radically different. There’s a real case if Hintz was healthy the Stars end it in 5. Even a case with how they dominated OT in game 1, they were a play away from sweeping. Seguin certainly wasn’t healthy either. It isn’t like injuries/suspension was in one side.

IMO Avs simply lost to a better team. Stars were deeper up front, had a much better goalie, and had better coaching. Even the 5D were overall better. Just a tip you cap moment and never see Nuke again in Denver.
Again, I’m not arguing that Stars weren’t the deeper team, they were. They were deep enough to overcome their injuries. On the other hand we needed to be fully healthy to match them, and we’d have a much better chance at winning the series if we had Val, LOC, Trenin, even more so if we had Landy too
 

henchman21

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Again, I’m not arguing that Stars weren’t the deeper team, they were. They were deep enough to overcome their injuries. On the other hand we needed to be fully healthy to match them, and we’d have a much better chance at winning the series if we had Val, LOC, Trenin, even more so if we had Landy too
And if they had Hintz, Marchment and Hakanpaa… they might have swept. The needle shouldn’t have to be threaded so narrowly to win a Cup. It can happen, but isn’t sustainable to need for years in a row.
 

the_fan

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And if they had Hintz, Marchment and Hakanpaa… they might have swept. The needle shouldn’t have to be threaded so narrowly to win a Cup. It can happen, but isn’t sustainable to need for years in a row.
And if they still don’t have Hintz, Marchment and Hakanpaa, they might get by the Oilers or the Nucks because those aren’t very strong teams, but they won’t beat NY or Florida in the finals if NY or Florida is the healthier team. That’s just the way it is in the playoffs. The healthiest team usually wins the cup
 

henchman21

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And if they still don’t have Hintz, Marchment and Hakanpaa, they might get by the Oilers or the Nucks because those aren’t very strong teams, but they won’t beat NY or Florida in the finals if NY or Florida is the healthier team. That’s just the way it is in the playoffs. The healthiest team usually wins the cup
Many teams with major injuries win the Cup. Avs were beat to f*** penguins had to win without Letang. Tampa won without Stamkos. Injuries are just part of the game.
 
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the_fan

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Many teams with major injuries win the Cup. Avs were beat to f*** penguins had to win without Letang. Tampa won without Stamkos. Injuries are just part of the game.
You can win it if you only have one key player out. Avs won without Forsberg as well. All those examples you brought up, just one key player out. If Pens had Letang and Malkin out, or Tampa had Stamkos and Point or Hedman out, they wouldn’t win it.

I don’t know if Marchment is that key of a player for Dallas although he was back for game 6, and if Hintz is the only key player out for them and no one else, they can probably over come it, but if they have Hintz out and get another key injury, Johnston or Robertson, they can’t win. That’s how I look at the Avs. We didn’t have 2 very key players Val and Landy. We need those two to win. Forget the other couple of depth players which we didn’t have.
 
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MacKaRant

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When you look at the whole series, Dallas ended up with 55% of the high danger chances in total. 5v5 it ended 50-50 after game 6 which played a big role. They only lost the total high danger chance battle in 2 games out of 6.
Sure, coaching plays a part in this, but at what point do you tip your cap to Dallas and say they were the deeper, hungier, and frankly better team, especially after Nuke decided to go get high?
 

henchman21

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Sure, coaching plays a part in this, but at what point do you tip your cap to Dallas and say they were the deeper, hungier, and frankly better team, especially after Nuke decided to go get high?
I've stated a lot that a number of factors go into it including the team. But there are certainly people that want to heavily discount DeBoer's role in this and he simply made the right adjustments very quickly to ensure the series went to Dallas. It is kinda crazy when we look at the whole 2nd round... Dallas held the Avs to the least amount of dangerous chance rate of any team in the 2nd round. Which was a drastic change from having the third most (behind Florida and Edmonton). That doesn't happen without good coaching.
 

lonelybadger

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Obviously the Nuke situation took a toll on the team both on and off the ice so I'm glad he's getting the help he needs from the NHLPA.

To me though, the season was lost on Feb 28th when Tanev got traded to Dallas. He was what the Avs needed, and his cost + cap hit was miniscule.

Only issue is RYJO and his cap.

If the Avs had Tanev instead of walker, and the Stars had no Tanev, would have been Avs in 6.
 
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Bender

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I have finally entered the acceptance phase yet I am still very pissed off.
I'm still absolutely livid about this series and how it all unfolded. To me this is a lot worse than last year and worse than 2021, 2020 and 2019.

I think we had the team to go all the way even if we had a 39 year old on our 2nd line for a few rounds because Drouin was going to return.

After taking game #1 on the road and playing poorly in Game #2, then playing well in Games #3 but getting goalied in that game, Drouin was all set to come back - finally we were going to have a solid Top-6 and then we got 'pearl harbored' with the f***ing news of the suspension hours before taking the ice. f***ing godam horseshit.

Even still, even with all that f***ing shit - we still managed to win game #5 on the road and the series was still up for grabs with Hintz being injured and Tanev being softened up significantly.

All we needed to do was dump it into Tanev's corner every single time he's on the ice and make sure we hit him hard. None of that happened...there was no game plan of anything similar at all.

That's on Bednar. This whole 'turn the other cheek' approach to HOCKEY is laughable especially since he was a goon when he played what, 46,000 games in the ECHL.

The kind of crap where that assface jamie benn takes a run at one of your best D and nothing happens - cannot continue. The league certainly has their favourites so they ain't gonna do nothing about it and like I said before, it shouldn't even have been retribution on #14 but - oops, sorry Miro - when your lying on the ice screaming "why? why?" holding your knee like Nancy Kerrigan - you can ask your lowlife captain why.

I actually like Bednar as a coach but his lease as Avs coach is probably nearing its expiration date especially if he can't use the assets that were brought in properly :

Parise - brought in as 4th line depth - massively overused because apparently he couldn't trust anyone else on that 2nd line (not that he actually tried anything else).

Trenin - brought in as a defensive player that hits and is hard to play against. He was used sparingly as 4th line C even thought he's probably a winger. Was good in some games in the 1st round but never really used the way he was supposed to - to wear down the opposition's D. Probably too concerned with 'playing the system's and not get out of position.

Duhaime - brought in as a player that hits and is hard to play against. Was used very sparingly and didn't have much of an impact at all. Bednar probably too scared he'd take too many penalties. Waste of a 3rd round pick.

Walker - started out fitting in extremely well with the team and the system and somehow gradually got worse as time went on.

I mean, I think CMac did a great job getting players that were going to be really tough to play against to grind down the other team, especially early in the series but they weren't used that way. So then, what the f*** is the point - if Bednar is going to NOT use them the way they were intended to be used? Just get a bunch of Matt Nieto's to take up space and skate around and play your system without really doing anything then and don't pay draft picks to acquire players - these kinds of guys are fully available every single summer. Get 3 or 4 - stash them in the AHL with large % guarantees and actually get some depth.

All-in-all, I feel that this team has underachieved with Bednar as coach when you take into consideration the quality of the roster. I rarely ever get the feeling - wow, we adjusted to what the other team is doing and we're really taking over. It's more - there is a system in place and it needs to be played to near perfection and if so, we are really tough to beat. If not, we are in trouble. Other coaches aren't stupid, they'll gameplan around that and force us to play a type of game that goes outside of that and then we are f***ed because there doesn't seem to be a backup plan.

Give me a coach that can seemingly make chicken salad out of chicken shit. Stuff like - Brad Marchand is out - well I will somehow make Danton Heinen be a viable player in the top-6, not just play Pastrnak more.

This is not all on Bedsy and I will be forever grateful for the 2022 Cup run but a guy like David Carle is certainly someone who I'd love for the Avs to bring in. Two championships in 3 years and they were supposed to get crushed this year too... the kind of coach that can take down 'goliath' not the kind of coach who is coaching 'Goliath' to first and second round exits.

Sorry for the long post, just so still mad/disappointed.
 
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