GDT: WCF| Mission Impossible: Game 2 | STL @ SJS | 6:00 PM PST | NBC KFOX

[bdave]

Accurate lol

 

[JeremyTB]

He was an elite 3rd line center in the regular season. I am expecting him to match that, or at least not significantly regress from it. He was not elite compared to other elite players and I am not expecting him to be that at his age.

If anything, the strawman arguments such as the one that you're using are those which frequently come from Thornton's defenders. I don't hate him either and I don't think most on this forum do.

I think he is seriously injured right now. He can barely move out there. If you watched him closely in these 1st 2 games he is not even turning. As soon as the puck comes to him he is standing still and just tries to get rid of the puck without moving his feet at all. As I said before I wouldn't be shocked if he tore his ACL again. Just look at the penalty he took in game 2, he got that penalty because he couldn't move his feet. He can't make any sharp turns, all his skating is in a straight line.

 

[one2gamble]

I think he is seriously injured right now. He can barely move out there. If you watched him closely in these 1st 2 games he is not even turning. As soon as the puck comes to him he is standing still and just tries to get rid of the puck without moving his feet at all. As I said before I wouldn't be shocked if he tore his ACL again. Just look at the penalty he took in game 2, he got that penalty because he couldn't move his feet. He can't make any sharp turns, all his skating is in a straight line.

So why is he playing, I don't disagree because I've noticed it as well but he really shouldn't be playing

 

[hohosaregood]

I think he is seriously injured right now. He can barely move out there. If you watched him closely in these 1st 2 games he is not even turning. As soon as the puck comes to him he is standing still and just tries to get rid of the puck without moving his feet at all. As I said before I wouldn't be shocked if he tore his ACL again. Just look at the penalty he took in game 2, he got that penalty because he couldn't move his feet. He can't make any sharp turns, all his skating is in a straight line.

Doesn't matter. He has to be better. Injuries are no excuse no matter how severe. Pavs just had a brain injury and he's out there.

 

[goflyakite]

Accurate lolView attachment 227863

It could be because I want the Sharks to win the cup this year, but I’ve had no stress watching the Bruins games since round 2. I didn’t want them to lose to the Leafs under any circumstance because I live in Ontario and I wouldn’t hear the end of it from their fans. Playing Columbus and now Carolina I have had little doubt they’d win.

Watching the Sharks on the other hand has been a roller coaster of emotions.

 

[JeremyTB]

So why is he playing, I don't disagree because I've noticed it as well but he really shouldn't be playing

I agree. He shouldn't be playing, he is a liability right now. If it was just him struggling you could ride it out but if it's an injury and a serious one, he's not going to get any better.

 

[JeremyTB]

Doesn't matter. He has to be better. Injuries are no excuse no matter how severe. Pavs just had a brain injury and he's out there.

Pavs is also 5 years younger and his hands and feet/legs are fine.

 

[WSS11]

This.

Vegas terrified me. After two games with the Avs, I was scared that Mackinnon/Makar were capable of winning a series themselves. So far, with the Blues, I haven’t really seen too much to worry me, yet. They’re good when they can sustain pressure in our zone, but we’ve managed to minimize when they can do that.

They can certainly still win - and Blues fans say they aren’t playing up to their usual abilities, so there’s no way I think it’s a slam dunk series, but I do agree the Sharks have a significant edge and will lose if they’re out coached, out-healthed or outworked.

I still feel confident.

If Jones plays like he did vs the Avs and game 5 on vs VGK then we’ll win. If he performs like he did yesterday then probably not

 

[Jargon]

If Jones plays like he did vs the Avs and game 5 on vs VGK then we’ll win. If he performs like he did yesterday then probably not

I wouldn't say this series is dependent on Jones, necessarily. If the Sharks can finish and play like they did Game 1, we can win.

 

[Mattb124]

I was 13 years old. How does that change anything? Thornton faced Bolland more frequently than any other Hawks center and it wasn't even close. He played more minutes against Bolland than any other Blackhawks forward in games 1 and 2 at SAP Center. Are you semantically disagreeing with me on the definition of "taking matchups" because that was a matchup that Quenneville engineered, and not McLellan? I'm not sure what you're even trying to argue at this point.

You used Bolland as one of two examples of Thornton not taking on top comp to argue Phu's comment that Thornton was used in a defensive role by taking on top comp (strength versus strength), which he absolutely was during that time in his career. This is where stats-focuses people fall down, trying to use the stats to conjure context by looking at something like ice time and trying to use that to infer utilization. Stats may tells you what happened, but they don't begin to speak to why.

 

[WSS11]

I wouldn't say this series is dependent on Jones, necessarily. If the Sharks can finish and play like they did Game 1, we can win.

That’s why I said probably lol

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

You used Bolland as one of two examples of Thornton not taking on top comp to argue Phu's comment that Thornton was used in a defensive role by taking on top comp (strength versus strength), which he absolutely was during that time in his career. This is where stats-focuses people fall down, trying to use the stats to conjure context by looking at something like ice time and trying to use that to infer utilization. Stats may tells you what happened, but they don't begin to speak to why.

Except the only thing that matters in the case is what actually happened on the ice because the argument that is being made is that Thornton should be absolved of blame to some degree because his coach used him in a defensive role against top competition. It doesn't matter what McLellan wanted. Thornton faced more of Dave Bolland than any other Hawks forward and got out-shot and out-scored.

Having said that, I still don't buy the idea that his coach wanted to use him in a defensive role taking on top competition. Offensive zone faceoffs are entirely determined by the player's coach and they're not something that the building or the opposing coach can impact, and yet look at these numbers from 2010:

Team	OZFO%
Playoff Sharks with 19	54.73%
Playoff Sharks without 19	46.39%
Playoff Sharks with 19 Vs. CHI	45.83%
Playoff Sharks without 19 Vs. CHI	41.46%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Jargon]

Except the only thing that matters in the case is what actually happened on the ice because the argument that is being made is that Thornton should be absolved of blame to some degree because his coach used him in a defensive role against top competition. It doesn't matter what McLellan wanted. Thornton faced more of Dave Bolland than any other Hawks forward and got out-shot and out-scored.

Having said that, I still don't buy the idea that his coach wanted to use him in a defensive role taking on top competition. Offensive zone faceoffs are entirely determined by the player's coach and they're not something that the building or the opposing coach can impact, and yet look at these numbers from 2010:

Team	OZFO%
Playoff Sharks with 19	54.73%
Playoff Sharks without 19	46.39%
Playoff Sharks with 19 Vs. CHI	45.83%
Playoff Sharks without 19 Vs. CHI	41.46%

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Thornton in his prime was defended and gameplanned against by the entire team. Shut down Thornton, shut down the Sharks. The issue is that Thornton is one of the world's greatest PASSERS, and teams made sure all his options were entirely taken away. You could argue that he should've shot more, yeah, and we all did back then, but Joe's skillset REQUIRES the performance of his linemates and for the ability to get them the puck. I don't think Joe plays worse in the playoffs, I think that he's a bit easier to shutdown than a Mackinnon because the very thing he's world-class at is heavily reliant on other players.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Thornton in his prime was defended and gameplanned against by the entire team. Shut down Thornton, shut down the Sharks. The issue is that Thornton is one of the world's greatest PASSERS, and teams made sure all his options were entirely taken away. You could argue that he should've shot more, yeah, and we all did back then, but Joe's skillset REQUIRES the performance of his linemates and for the ability to get them the puck. I don't think Joe plays worse in the playoffs, I think that he's a bit easier to shutdown than a Mackinnon because the very thing he's world-class at is heavily reliant on other players.

But the other players around him never had an issue scoring in the playoffs. Couture, Marleau, and Pavelski in particular all have an increase in playoff goals per game compared to their regular season goals per game. That is remarkable when you consider that scoring generally drops in the playoffs Thornton has generally played with one of Marleau or Pavelski at 5-on-5, and he has generally played with more than one of them on the power play.

All 3 of Couture/Marleau/Pavelski are top-10 in playoff goals since the lockout. All 3 of them are top-10 in playoff goals per game if you use a 100 game minimum and top-20 if you use a 50 game minimum. Comparably, Thornton ranks 13th in points per game if you use a 100 game minimum and 26th if you use a 50 game minimum.

Going by the numbers, Jonathan Cheechoo wasn't exactly a playoff performer, so I can understand the criticism there. In the 4 seasons where Thornton and Cheechoo were here, his playoff goals per game dropped from 0.44 to 0.29, and his playoff points per game dropped from 0.78 to 0.61. However, I still hold Thornton accountable for most of that, as Thornton was the man who made that happened, and I also feel compelled to point out that Thornton's drop of 1.28 points per game to 0.85 over that 4 year time frame is much larger. At the end of the day, your complementary players tend to go as your superstars go. Cheechoo was a superstar in his own right but he was also complementary to Thornton.

 

[The Nemesis]

Game's over, new game's GDT is up and I think we've run the course on the whole Thornton issue between this thread and the other thread actually about him (which coincidentally (or not so coincidentally) got locked too)