Was Jonathan Toews ever the 2nd best centre in the NHL?

[Despote]

I think in that Chicago Cup period -- 2010 to 2015 -- we saw a lot of playoff failures by the best offensive players of the generation like Crosby, Malkin, Ovechkin and Stamkos while two-way centers Toews, Kopitar and Bergeron were winning Cups. The offensive numbers put up in this time were really low and got even lower in the playoffs.

 

[Crosby2010]

So I do agree with others that pound for pound and on a per game basis Malkin was the better player during this time. Stamkos missed a lot of time in 2014, plus had a season or two that wasn't his best. Those are the two right there that you'd consider after Crosby, but they had injuries during this time. So I still think Toews can very much make a case as the next best and is right in that Bergeron, Datsyuk, Kopitar, Getzlaf group.

 

[MS]

He was never the 2nd best C in the NHL unless you don't count players who were injured.

He *maybe* provided the 2nd highest value from an NHL C during the shortened 12-13 season, but this is debatable vs. Stamkos/Datsyuk/Getzlaf and only because Malkin who was the defending MVP only played 31 games.

 

[Crosby2010]

He was never the 2nd best C in the NHL unless you don't count players who were injured.

He *maybe* provided the 2nd highest value from an NHL C during the shortened 12-13 season, but this is debatable vs. Stamkos/Datsyuk/Getzlaf and only because Malkin who was the defending MVP only played 31 games.

I was looking more along the lines of not just per game but overall value. I think Malkin on a per game basis even at that time was better, but he was hurt a lot. Toews wasn't, and he was winning top level international tournaments and captaining Cup teams.

 

[MS]

I was looking more along the lines of not just per game but overall value. I think Malkin on a per game basis even at that time was better, but he was hurt a lot. Toews wasn't, and he was winning top level international tournaments and captaining Cup teams.

I mean, sure.

But Toews wasn't considered one of the top two Cs in the game at the start of that season or the start of the next one. He was only a 2nd Team AS that year because better players got hurt.

 

[Jericho111091]

I wouldn't say he was as high as number two, but there is an arguement to be made for top five

 

[Gorskyontario]

I watched Zetterberg completely dominate Toews in every facet of the game in 2013. Detroit didn't have much of a team left after 2009 as they rapidly aged and failed to retool. I can't imagine ever taking Toews over Datsyuk or Zetterberg, its a shame the latter two didn't have much help for the latter parts of their careers.

 

[WarriorofTime]

I watched Zetterberg completely dominate Toews in every facet of the game in 2013.

He blew a 3-1 series lead. Finishing with the same number of points (4) in the Series is a strange definition "completely dominate".

Low scoring series for what it's worth, at even strength, Red Wings had a 14-12 scoring edge (both teams had 1 empty net goal), on the powerplay, Hawks had a 4-1 edge, so Hawks in total outscored 16-14. Hawks outshot in the Series 238-199 and won in Game 7 in OT. Some people have a bit of an odd memory of the Red Wings "completely dominating" that Series.

 

[Gorskyontario]

He blew a 3-1 series lead. Finishing with the same number of points (4) in the Series is a strange definition "completely dominate".

Low scoring series for what it's worth, at even strength, Red Wings had a 14-12 scoring edge (both teams had 1 empty net goal), on the powerplay, Hawks had a 4-1 edge, so Hawks in total outscored 16-14. Hawks outshot in the Series 238-199 and won in Game 7 in OT. Some people have a bit of an odd memory of the Red Wings "completely dominating" that Series.

There was a point in that series where Toews took a bad penalty and literally started crying in the box. Some other hawk, maybe Sharp or Seabrook needed to go see him and calm him down.

The wings didn't have a deep team, or good wingers to play with Zetterberg and Datsyuk. They blew a 3-1 lead, doesn't mean Toews didn't get absolutely dominated by Henrik Zetterberg.

 

[WarriorofTime]

A player getting mad after a penalty call has nothing to do with their stature in the league. Toews in 2013 had one of the greatest seasons of the analytics era. A hall of famer having the same number of points in a playoff series certainly doesn’t change that either.

 

[Gorskyontario]

A player getting mad after a penalty call has nothing to do with their stature in the league. Toews in 2013 had one of the greatest seasons of the analytics era. A hall of famer having the same number of points in a playoff series certainly doesn’t change that either.

He wasn't mad. He started crying and one of his teammates skated over to calm him down.

I was watching the game with my father in law and brother in law. One of them made a joke about intangibles and we all started laughing, it was very funny.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He wasn't mad. He started crying and one of his teammates skated over to calm him down.

I was watching the game with my father in law and brother in law. One of them made a joke about intangibles and we all started laughing, it was very funny.

He came back and won the series and the cup. So he had the last laugh. Don’t think Datsyuk and Zetterberg ever won another playoff series in their career. Weird to try and use that season as a knock on him.

 

[Mrfenn92]

He wasn't mad. He started crying and one of his teammates skated over to calm him down.

I was watching the game with my father in law and brother in law. One of them made a joke about intangibles and we all started laughing, it was very funny.

Funny

 

[Gorskyontario]

He came back and won the series and the cup. So he had the last laugh. Don’t think Datsyuk and Zetterberg ever won another playoff series in their career. Weird to try and use that season as a knock on him.

With 3 goals and 14 points. Toews played well in the other cup runs, especially 2010 but he was trash in 2013.

Also I'm not sure if using Toews late career accomplishments in comparison to Zetterberg/Datsyuk will make him look good.

 

[WarriorofTime]

With 3 goals and 14 points. Toews played well in the other cup runs, especially 2010 but he was trash in 2013.

check the analytics. Low scoring playoffs, low scoring series. Toews played the exact brand of hockey for that era to do the cup winning thing.

 

[Gorskyontario]

check the analytics. Low scoring playoffs, low scoring series. Toews played the exact brand of hockey for that era to do the cup winning thing.

He was outscored by Bryan Bickell.

 

[WarriorofTime]

He was outscored by Bryan Bickell.

Good for Bryan Bickell.

 

[Stephen]

Maybe it’s easy for me to say as an Eastern Conference fan whose team was not very good during the Toews prime era and therefore had no skin in the game.

But it’s always crazy to me how Jonathan Toews gets down rated because he wasn’t this, that or the other offensively. But consider this. He basically came into the league as the veteran final form of an Yzerman, going from draft to cup in 4 short years. Captaining 3 Stanley Cups within 10 years taking Yzerman almost 20 years to accomplish the same thing.

Sure he never had the 50 goal years, the 100 point seasons, the years shooting out the lights but learning the hard way what it took to win. He just won. He won as much as Crosby and more than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bergeron, Stamkos, Kopitar. Won more than McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Barkov, Matthews. etc.

End of the day there’s just something special about the way his career went. If you’re a lottery team and you can draft a kid this spring and you win a cup in 4 years, that’s a bit of a miracle isn’t it?

 

[Gorskyontario]

Maybe it’s easy for me to say as an Eastern Conference fan whose team was not very good during the Toews prime era and therefore had no skin in the game.

But it’s always crazy to me how Jonathan Toews gets down rated because he wasn’t this, that or the other offensively. But consider this. He basically came into the league as the veteran final form of an Yzerman, going from draft to cup in 4 short years. Captaining 3 Stanley Cups within 10 years taking Yzerman almost 20 years to accomplish the same thing.

Sure he never had the 50 goal years, the 100 point seasons, the years shooting out the lights but learning the hard way what it took to win. He just won. He won as much as Crosby and more than Datsyuk, Zetterberg, Bergeron, Stamkos, Kopitar. Won more than McDavid, Mackinnon, Draisaitl, Barkov, Matthews. etc.

End of the day there’s just something special about the way his career went. If you’re a lottery team and you can draft a kid this spring and you win a cup in 4 years, that’s a bit of a miracle isn’t it?

This post is so nonsensical and absurd I don't even know where to begin. Yzerman won his first cup in his 14th year, not his 20th. Second Toews was good for the hawks, but they also had a solid young core when he got there. Patrick kane, Keith and Seabrook, many other decent players. They won 46 games and went to the conference finals in his second year.

Now obviously Toews had a great career and deserves credit for it. Solid playoff performer, good at both ends of the ice. Good offensively but not great, but of course usually showed up in the playoffs. Toews is not on the same level as Yzerman, and suggesting otherwise is frankly absurd.

Yzerman has roughly twice Toews point totals. Toews best season was 81 points, which Yzerman was capable of doing, while winning the selke as an old man with injury problems. I'm aware Yzerman absurdly said Toews is better than him, which roughly as silly as Gretzky constantly saying x players are better than him. Not to mention where is Toews now? He is only 35 and missed a bunch of seasons randomly because of the flu or something and it turned out he was aware of the blackhawks sexual abuse doing on.

Give me a break comparing Jonathan Toews to Steve Yzerman. Toews is closer to Doug Jarvis than Yzerman.

 

[Stephen]

This post is so nonsensical and absurd I don't even know where to begin. Yzerman won his first cup in his 14th year, not his 20th. Second Toews was good for the hawks, but they also had a solid young core when he got there. Patrick kane, Keith and Seabrook, many other decent players. They won 46 games and went to the conference finals in his second year.

Yzerman won his third cup by Year 19 in 2002 after being drafted in 1983. Jonathan Toews won his third cup in 2016 10 years after he was drafted in 2006.

And newsflash. Stanley Cup winning teams tend to have strong rosters top to bottom. The nonsense is always this notion that Toews or Kane played with Toews/Kane and had a strong roster behind them or that anyone has ever won a cup singlehandedly without great teammates. Great players playing with great players to win championships is the whole point of pro team sports.

Scoring titles, glamour stats, message board rankings are all fun and games. Toews didn't have those big individual years but delivered the highest value accomplishments for Chicago early and often. And that counts for a lot. I'm not saying Toews is anywhere close to Yzerman as a player but why do we even value all those individual accomplishments when Toews just cut to the chase?

 

[WarriorofTime]

Not sure what Toews having a bunch of health problems to prematurely end his career has to do with his prime or why you added a bunch of defamatory nonsense that he was responsible for Brad Aldrich’s conduct.

 

[MadLuke]

This post is so nonsensical and absurd I don't even know where to begin. Yzerman won his first cup in his 14th year, not his 20th. Second Toews was good for the hawks, but they also had a solid young core when he got there. Patrick kane, Keith and Seabrook, many other decent players. They won 46 games and went to the conference finals in his second year.

Captaining 3 Stanley Cups within 10 years taking Yzerman almost 20 years to accomplish the same thing.

You appear to take great pride in your general inability to read, understand, and make sense of even the simplest statements.

I do not think there was a single instance you used the expression that something was nonsensical, not making sense, that I was not able to understand the message you quoted.

 

[Gorskyontario]

Yzerman won his third cup by Year 19 in 2002 after being drafted in 1983. Jonathan Toews won his third cup in 2016 10 years after he was drafted in 2006.

My mistake on that one, I read it as it too Yzerman 20 years to win his first cup. Regardless Detroit was terrible for around 8-9 years and the Wings only became contenders in maybe 92-93, or 93-94. The Blackhawks were contenders from Toews 2nd season.

Scoring titles, glamour stats, message board rankings are all fun and games. Toews didn't have those big individual years but delivered the highest value accomplishments for Chicago early and often. And that counts for a lot. I'm not saying Toews is anywhere close to Yzerman as a player but why do we even value all those individual accomplishments when Toews just cut to the chase?

Of course Toews did well, and had a great career. That being said he was on a great team from the get go. Most top prospects are not afforded that luxury.

 

[The Panther]

As others have said, on a purely 'individual' level of playing ability, there's no way Toews was ever the 2nd best, no. Crosby was obviously better, and there's no way in an individual comparison that Toews was ever better than Malkin. Bergeron might stand in Toews' way, too, I'm not sure (didn't watch him play much).

It does get interesting after that, though, because all of Datsyuk, Getzlaff, young-Stamkos before injury, Thornton, and H. Sedin were kind of passing their primes around 2012-13 or so.

So, if you take that period of around mid-2010 to mid-2015 as a whole, Toews maybe has an argument as the 2nd best center, but even then it's difficult.

Anyway, good player, I liked him.

At the end of the day, he walks away with:
-- 68 points per season (average), after over 1000 NHL games
-- a +148 in the regular season
-- a 2nd-All Star team season
-- 3 Stanley Cups as team captain
-- 119 career playoff points
-- 1 Selke trophy
-- 1 Conn Smythe
-- 2 Olympic Gold medals (for one of which he was 'best forward')

 

[The Panther]

By the way, does anyone have advice on how to reduce the f***ing annoying ads and pop-up ads on this site? About six months ago, or so, it became incredibly annoying.

It's not really an issue on a full-size screen, but on my Surface Pro (which I use at home), the ads are so intrusive that it makes it really difficult to even see the screen. Honestly, it's making it a drag to even use this forum.

(Yes, I re-set the general site settings and set pop-up ads' settings to 'off', but the ads are still popping up.)