Was Barry Trotz holding Nashville back?

[La Bamba]

I don't think he was. I remember being so impressed with how well the Preds would do in the standings despite being a team that spent around the cap minimum.

 

[StarvinArvyn33]

He was a definsive minded coach who made goalies like chris mason and dan ellis shine. Which was perfect for a budget expansion team but he isnt the coach to take you all the way. Not diverse enough. Lavy is miles better no question for me.

 

[Gnashville]

I don't think he was. I remember being so impressed with how well the Preds would do in the standings despite being a team that spent around the cap minimum.

That was how the media portrayed him. Really Nashville was hardly ever a cap floor team they normally stayed around the middle and when new owners took over they have been near the top of the cap. Trotz had more talent to work with than people believe.
When $uter left the media portrayed Nashville as not being able to pay him, when in reality they were prepared to pay him & Weber.

 

[TimbitsHockey877*]

I remember his refusal to play young guys.

Apparently so because he's doing the same thing in Washington

 

[mrv52]

Apparently so because he's doing the same thing in Washington

Would you like to back this up or should we just take your word for it?

 

[Athletique_Canadien]

Something is missing in the comparison with Lavi vs Trotz. Ask Philly or Canes fans & they'll tell you, Lavi tends to land with a major bang and the results start to fizzle in later years. But this is typical for most coaches.

Now, is he going to come crashing down to earth in Nashville? Who knows? Trends aren't written in stone so it may be moot but maybe not which is why I posted it. Another infamous hot starter who fades away is Guy Boucher. Time will tell.

 

[Cory Trevor]

In a league where new teams are seen as second class citizens and avoided like the plague, he shepherded them through their first decade and a half while being the far and away best team to develop DMen in the league.

Their forward core still hasn't come into their full potential and they are pushing to make a SC final. Trotz and Poile created the culture there. They finally made some good moves to bring in forwards(Neal, Johansen) and through draft(Arvidsson, Sissons, Forsberg, Fiala) and it's paying off.

Trotz wasn't holding them back, he created the identity of the team from thin air.

 

[Jets4Life]

No.....

 

[BlueDream]

Not even close. Nashville just finally improved their offense.

 

[Persona5]

True Nashville fans will forever hold Trotz in high regard. Was it time to move on when the team did? Yes. Was Trotz holding this team back? I don't think so and I really don't see it as a fair question. Would this team still be in Nashville if Trotz wasn't our head coach? I don't know but that is a better question imo. Trotz will always be welcome in our city and that I know for a fact.

 

[Hivemind]

Forsberg is the name that everyone will mention, given his rise to prominence under Laviolette. However, Trotz had the reputation of stifling offensive talent and not being good at developing forwards before that. Can any Nashville fans provide some other examples/details of forwards/prospects that Trotz handled poorly prior to Forsberg?

Aside of the Radulov/Kotstitsyn sideshow, that is.

 

[GoldOnGold]

Forsberg is the name that everyone will mention, given his rise to prominence under Laviolette. However, Trotz had the reputation of stifling offensive talent and not being good at developing forwards before that. Can any Nashville fans provide some other examples/details of forwards/prospects that Trotz handled poorly prior to Forsberg?

Aside of the Radulov/Kotstitsyn sideshow, that is.

Well, I've seen people say that Trotz stifled Legwand's development and ensured that he would never be able to reach his full potential. But that was before my time, so someone else might have more perspective on it.

 

[Bringer of Jollity]

Forsberg is the name that everyone will mention, given his rise to prominence under Laviolette. However, Trotz had the reputation of stifling offensive talent and not being good at developing forwards before that. Can any Nashville fans provide some other examples/details of forwards/prospects that Trotz handled poorly prior to Forsberg?

Aside of the Radulov/Kotstitsyn sideshow, that is.

I think even the Forsberg handling is overblown, considering Fiala has been handled basically the same way under Lavy. He wasn't quite ready his first year over here, had a productive season in the AHL, then exploded the next year under Lavy.

Colin Wilson and some others of his ilk were always talked about as being held back by Trotz, but, as they've mostly shown, they're just bloody inconsistent players.

 

[TimbitsHockey877*]

Would you like to back this up or should we just take your word for it?

I told my buddy who's a Caps fan 2 years ago. They would win the Cup and had one of the best seasons ever. After the Pens beat them, I said Caps will copy the Pens and win it next year. Nope.

Caps remind me of the Pens of old. Employing old slow "veterans" for "leadership" Mr "Game 7" That did nothing in Game 7. Reminds of the Pens putting out Craig Adams and we had Winnik. Caps just lose Winnik and Williams and they probably beat the Pens. I know Williams was one of their best players for some of the series but that was by default.

Look at the span when Caps took Orpik and Niskanen from the Pens. Pens have developed 2 starting D and used prospects/picks to trade for 3. Rookie was leading goal scorer for most of the playoffs. 2nd year player scored the big goal for the Pens in Game 7. Pens had 4-5 second year players playing most of that series and a rookie.

Hersey Bears are one of the best AHL teams every year aren't they? So when I hear Trotz wouldn't play young players in Nashville and they are now in the WCF. Then I compare the Pens vs. Caps on what I have been saying for 2 years.

I think it's safe to say Trotz is holding the Capitals back.

 

[Atren]

I remember his refusal to play young guys. Forsberg started to flourish when Laviolette became coach.

I think that is because in my opinion you develop attachment to current players over time. When new coach comes then he is more likely to pick new guys and then slowly grows attached to them leading to repeating cycle.

So yeah, I agree that he did hold them back somewhat in that regard. But it is rather widespread issue than specific to few coaches.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

I told my buddy who's a Caps fan 2 years ago. They would win the Cup and had one of the best seasons ever. After the Pens beat them, I said Caps will copy the Pens and win it next year. Nope.

Caps remind me of the Pens of old. Employing old slow "veterans" for "leadership" Mr "Game 7" That did nothing in Game 7. Reminds of the Pens putting out Craig Adams and we had Winnik. Caps just lose Winnik and Williams and they probably beat the Pens. I know Williams was one of their best players for some of the series but that was by default.

Look at the span when Caps took Orpik and Niskanen from the Pens. Pens have developed 2 starting D and used prospects/picks to trade for 3. Rookie was leading goal scorer for most of the playoffs. 2nd year player scored the big goal for the Pens in Game 7. Pens had 4-5 second year players playing most of that series and a rookie.

Hersey Bears are one of the best AHL teams every year aren't they? So when I hear Trotz wouldn't play young players in Nashville and they are now in the WCF. Then I compare the Pens vs. Caps on what I have been saying for 2 years.

I think it's safe to say Trotz is holding the Capitals back.

Ok first the Forsberg crap - Dean Evason is someone Forsberg cites as helping him a lot in his development with learning how to play a more complete game, if Trotz keeps him up, maybe Forsberg figures it out, maybe he doesn't and ends up taking longer to get to where he is right now, but the guy is where he is right now because Trotz recognized he was still way too raw. People want to give him crap for that?

Tell me Caps fans, how was Nate Schmidt not played because Trotz hates young players? How about Burakovsky having a bit of a breakthrough in the playoffs? Why does Laviolette get the credit for Forsberg, but Trotz gets none for helping Kuznetsov, a young player at the time?

And AHL teams success isn't always because of prospects, those teams are also trying to win a championship of their own, they are loaded with AHL vets sprinkled in with young talent to be a part of a winning team. Vrana and others got a shot with the Caps, they weren't ready. What is Trotz supposed to do? Play people that aren't ready? I may not think Trotz is a great coach, but he is a good one and he didn't seem to have that bias towards young players like people like to think.


Also, what's holding the Capitals back? They lack identity. They always have. That's been their issue for a very very long time and they have never corrected it. They need to forge an identity. Every team has one, but the Caps are just a team that does well and then flutters in the playoffs, but their identity isn't that of the highest scoring team or the best defensive team, they're pretty good at both, but I mean...there's zero identity there. You never hear analysts mention that because there isn't one.

 

[SavageSteve]

Trotz says he wants every player to play a 200 ft two-way game all the time. What he really wants is offensive skill players to buy in defensively. Guys that normally don't score are giving free passes if they play good defense.

I have never seen him criticize a defensive player for not scoring consistently but he's all over scorers when they play poor defensive games.

He also makes zero adjustments in games and series and depends on his system to correct itself.

I think this is pretty spot-on actually. Trotz was a rock for this team for so many seasons but he also seemingly was unable to make adjustments ahead of match-ups and then it was reactionary rather than gaining advantage first despite risk. Sometime around January, I really looked at this current Preds line-up and felt that with the depth, it was more constructed for the playoffs than regular season, Trotz's teams were more set to combat Detroit more than anything else being the only real competition in the Central after the lockout till the Blackhawks emerged by exploiting their mistakes instead of being the aggressors and playing the possession game. A bigger, heavier team in a series could continually pound on our skill players and diminish their effectiveness in his system as played here. And with Trotz also generally favoring veterans over rookies later in his stint, it would stifle development and even likely made Radulov run-away for KHL riches. Lavy seems to like to give young skilled players the chance to play and take a few risks to find confidence, something that Trotz seemingly never would do until they learned to play mistake-free defense. It's hard to do what you naturally do if your worried you'll get yanked for making a mistake...

Despite all of this criticism, I also do find Barry to be a fine human being and very glad he was a pillar in this community too. We wish him nothing but the best but do know his shortcomings... Without him, we would never be at this point too. I'm not sure this fanbase could accept a run of bad seasons like Carolina or Edmonton has experienced to have the excitement we see now at a fever pitch.

 

[Bloomfield*]

What has beeing a fine human to do with coaching?

 

[DaveG]

Something is missing in the comparison with Lavi vs Trotz. Ask Philly or Canes fans & they'll tell you, Lavi tends to land with a major bang and the results start to fizzle in later years. But this is typical for most coaches.

Now, is he going to come crashing down to earth in Nashville? Who knows? Trends aren't written in stone so it may be moot but maybe not which is why I posted it. Another infamous hot starter who fades away is Guy Boucher. Time will tell.

Yep. Don't get me wrong, Lavi may have reigned back in some of the tendencies that got him fired in Carolina, Philly, and from the Isles, but none of us knows what's going on in the room.

I'll admit I was among those that thought firing Trotz was a potential mistake, but I also thought the Lavi hire was the best possible one they could have made to replace him seeing what he had done in his prior 3 stops, and there's nothing so far that has changed my opinion in that regard. Will be interesting to see how long it takes the room to tune him out, but right now Lavi's showing exactly why I think he's the best coach in hockey.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

Trotz says he wants every player to play a 200 ft two-way game all the time. What he really wants is offensive skill players to buy in defensively. Guys that normally don't score are giving free passes if they play good defense.

I have never seen him criticize a defensive player for not scoring consistently but he's all over scorers when they play poor defensive games.

He also makes zero adjustments in games and series and depends on his system to correct itself.

I'll bite on part one.

"You've never seen him criticize a defensive player for not scoring goals, but he's all over scorers for playing bad D"

"Defensive players" are defensive players because they're limited in offensive talent typically. Why would a coach criticize (much) a defensive player for doing something that isn't what he is?

Conversely playing D is mostly about hard work and mind set. If you're not playing D, you're loafing out there. Offensive players have the talent to play D. Defensive players rarely have to skill to score a lot of goals.

I painfully agree with your statement about lack of in game adjustments.

 

[Novak Djokovic]

He's great at getting the most out of marginal players, but always seemed to stifle the more creative players. I think to go really far there has to be an acceptable amount of risk allowed and he didn't really allow it. So he always has good results but never great.

That said, he was also dealt some bad luck in the Preds playoff runs. The first one against Detroit there was a $50M payroll difference between the teams. Then against the Sharks Vokoun was injured. another series where Radulov injured Arnott on a goal celebration. Against yotes we had Radulov and Kostitsyn getting suspended... He probably got a longer leash because of those circumstances. I thought his biggest failure was not winning with Forsberg on the team.

Sullivan - Arnott - Dumont
Kariya - Legwand - Erat
Hartnell - Forsberg - Radulov
Smithson - Fiddler - Tootoo
Nichol

Hamhuis - Timonen
Weber - Suter
Zanon - Zidlicky

Vokoun

That's a very, very good team that lost in five games in the first round.

I still get amazed how that team with its incredible forward and defensive depth managed to not only lose in 1st round but also in 5 games. One of the better post-lockout teams on paper, IMO.

 

[CapitalsCupReality]

I'd like to hear from Nashville fans more on Trotz and the franchise's development of young players in his time. As someone who knows how David Poile leaned in the draft historically when he was with the Caps (steady players, rarely reaching for guys with offensive upside, great drafting D), I'd love to hear more than generalities about him limiting player development if any Nashville fans care to share.

Is it as simple as he refused to give young players ice time, or deeper?

 

[Mickey Marner]

He took teams with without a 1C about as far as they can be expected to go.

Laviolette wouldn't have won a cup with a rotation of Arnott/Fisher/Legwand/Smith/Spaling/Gaustad/Bonk/Smithson/Nichol/thecorpseofpeterforsberg/etc. either.

 

[Bieber fever]

Nah it was Weber. Seriously at 5vs5 Subban number are just off the chart. Preds basically got a top dman for a complementary dman.

 

[amethyst]

Nah it was Weber. Seriously at 5vs5 Subban number are just off the chart. Preds basically got a top dman for a complementary dman.

When Weber was in Nashville, fans here were saying he was the best dman playing today. Guess he got exposed once he got traded?

Poile's greatest trade has to be Erat for Forsberg. Then Weber for Subban. Just highway robbery.