Vegas likely will be allowed to trade before expansion draft

[vannzee]

Heard a clip from when Pierre Lebrun was on the radio friday speaking about how the league is widely expected to allow Las Vegas to wheel and deal as early as three weeks before the expansion draft, in an attempt to make hem competitive sooner than later.

While Vegas wouldn't have any players to move in exchange they would have draft picks and could likely enter into agreements for certain players to be selected or not selected in next summers expansion draft.

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[Michel Beauchamp]

Heard a clip from when Pierre Lebrun was on the radio friday speaking about how the league is widely expected to allow Las Vegas to wheel and deal as early as three weeks before the expansion draft, in an attempt to make hem competitive sooner than later.

While Vegas wouldn't have any players to move in exchange they would have draft picks and could likely enter into agreements for certain players to be selected or not selected in next summers expansion draft.

How is that different from any previous expansions, except maybe the first one ?

 

[Hynh]

I thought this was known for awhile.

How is that different from any previous expansions, except maybe the first one ?

I think during previous expansions this was done under the table.

 

[Michel Beauchamp]

I thought this was known for awhile.



I think during previous expansions this was done under the table.

Nope.

 

[SUBdrewgANS]

So for Pittsburgh situation.. Pittsburgh could trade them a pick or player in exchange for not selecting Murray in the draft?

 

[InfinityIggy]

So for Pittsburgh situation.. Pittsburgh could trade them a pick or player in exchange for not selecting Murray in the draft?

Yes. We have seen similar deals in past expansion drafts.

 

[Lunatik]

So for Pittsburgh situation.. Pittsburgh could trade them a pick or player in exchange for not selecting Murray in the draft?

It will probably cost you a pretty penny though. Probably your 1st+ IMO

 

[MikeyMike01]

It will probably cost you a pretty penny though. Probably your 1st+ IMO

Whatever it is, it has to entice LV more than taking that guy does. So it won't be cheap.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Heard a clip from when Pierre Lebrun was on the radio friday speaking about how the league is widely expected to allow Las Vegas to wheel and deal as early as three weeks before the expansion draft, in an attempt to make hem competitive sooner than later.

While Vegas wouldn't have any players to move in exchange they would have draft picks and could likely enter into agreements for certain players to be selected or not selected in next summers expansion draft.

always happens

the moment the cup gets raised--vegas is Officially a team--expansion teams have always started making moved before the expansion draft

 

[izzy]

Hopefully they are making deals all over the place before the draft

 

[tony d]

This has been the case before. I remember reading not to long ago Columbus and Buffalo made a deal in 2000 prior to the expansion draft where they made a deal and Columbus had to promise not to take Hasek in the expansion draft as part of the deal.

 

[Skobel24]

Whatever it is, it has to entice LV more than taking that guy does. So it won't be cheap.

Yeah, it wouldn't be cheap. Murray would be the most enticing piece from the Penguins. They'd need to offer something significant to not take him.

 

[Sanderson]

This has been the case before. I remember reading not to long ago Columbus and Buffalo made a deal in 2000 prior to the expansion draft where they made a deal and Columbus had to promise not to take Hasek in the expansion draft as part of the deal.

Maybe you thought of a different player, because there is no way Buffalo would have ever left Hasek open to be picked in an expansion draft

Now that I look at it again, the wikipedia-site for the draft claims that Buffalo made a trade with Columbus so that it would not pick Hasek or Biron, but that is not true. Both Hasek and Biron were obviously protected from the draft and thus never available to be picked anyway. Buffalo made a deal with Columbus that they would pick Dwayne Roloson, because if a team lost a goalie it was barred from losing a defenseman on top of that. To guarantee that they could keep all their defensemen, they enticed Columbus to take their available the goalie.

There were a few actual examples for a team making trades to protect a player though. San Jose, for example, made trades with both Columbus and Minnesota which guaranteed that neither would pick Nabokov in the expansion draft.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

It will probably cost you a pretty penny though. Probably your 1st+ IMO

Perhaps, unless they decide to expose Fleury instead of Murray and Las Vegas is immediately put off anyways. So there's going to be a bit of give and take in these deals, Las Vegas won't hold all the cards. Plus they won't want to burn bridges so early into their existence.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Nope.

Yes they have. Teams will start talking with vegas the moment their season is over and the decide that they do not want to lose player X do they will offer vegas say a 4th if they take player F. Also Team A sees team B has exposed player Y.. team A offers say a 2nd to Vegas to take player Y. You just need to look at nearly any interview with gms involved in expansion tems over the years

 

[Big McLargehuge]

Perhaps, unless they decide to expose Fleury instead of Murray and Las Vegas is immediately put off anyways. So there's going to be a bit of give and take in these deals, Las Vegas won't hold all the cards. Plus they won't want to burn bridges so early into their existence.

Unfortunately Fleury can't be left unprotected because of his non-NMC NMC (Rutherford has to be kicking himself about the language in that deal, but how was he to know? Fleury doesn't have a full NMC, but a partial one that prevents him from being put on waivers...the NHL doesn't recognize partial NMCs, so in this case he's seen as having a full NMC, despite the fact that he could be traded to 17 different teams without his consent).

That said...yeah, I really don't expect Vegas to bend Rutherford over a barrel here if this is the route that the Penguins go down. They'll get a pretty piece, but it's not going to be a 1st rounder. Considering the trade board barely considers Murray as worth a 1st rounder in a vacuum, the Pens are still likely to have to leave Pouliot unprotected. It's not just a case of the Pens paying full market value just to keep Murray, it'll be Murray vs. Pouliot/Schultz/Bonino/whatever and a pick. You also have to recognize who is running the Las Vegas team right now...GMGM isn't the type of guy that burns bridges, and Rutherford is the type of GM who will make sure Vegas gets something decent for their side of the bargain (remember, for better or worse he made a fair market value deal to the Pens to get Jordan Staal back when he was with the Canes, despite Staal demanding a trade to Carolina...he'll make it worth Vegas's while to look somewhere else for goaltending, and there will still be plenty of quality options available). On a related note, Schultz is a RFA again after this season, so if he has a good year he'd also be a very appealing option for Vegas considering how much value puck-moving RHDs have in this league. It's hard to imagine either Pouliot or Schultz being protected over Letang, Määttä, or Dumoulin and you have to imagine young PMDs will be near the top of what GMGM is looking for.

We've seen these kinds of moves before, and I expect we'll see them again. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the Pens roll into 2017-18 still with the tandem of Fleury & Murray...we'll just be short a good defenseman with a ton of upside and a 3rd round pick.

 

[SpookyHockey]

Heard a clip from when Pierre Lebrun was on the radio friday speaking about how the league is widely expected to allow Las Vegas to wheel and deal as early as three weeks before the expansion draft, in an attempt to make hem competitive sooner than later.

While Vegas wouldn't have any players to move in exchange they would have draft picks and could likely enter into agreements for certain players to be selected or not selected in next summers expansion draft.

This part makes me think that the NHL is hoping that Vegas would trade draft picks for players instead of acquiring picks by not choosing players in the expansion draft. Not saying that's what's going to happen, but that seems to be the NHL's reasoning for this.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

This part makes me think that the NHL is hoping that Vegas would trade draft picks for players instead of acquiring picks by not choosing players in the expansion draft. Not saying that's what's going to happen, but that seems to be the NHL's reasoning for this.

If Vegas sells their draft picks they're going to inevitably be spinning the wheels of mediocrity for years. The league wants them to be good out of the gate and have the potential to get better, opening trades like this opens the door for them to add picks while still being able to put together a competitive team out of the gate. There's also the fact that the precedent has been set to allow teams to trade before the expansion draft that you have to remember. Is Murray going to be that much better than any of the other goalies available? Maybe, but given the names that could potentially be available I don't think it would be bad for Vegas at all to add a decent pick while still getting a very good player to look elsewhere. There'll be far fewer capable young PMDs in that expansion draft pool than there will be quality goaltenders....they're not going to be trotting a Damian Rhodes out there on opening night one way or another.

 

[mouser]

Unfortunately Fleury can't be left unprotected because of his non-NMC NMC (Rutherford has to be kicking himself about the language in that deal, but how was he to know? Fleury doesn't have a full NMC, but a partial one that prevents him from being put on waivers...the NHL doesn't recognize partial NMCs, so in this case he's seen as having a full NMC, despite the fact that he could be traded to 17 different teams without his consent).

That said...yeah, I really don't expect Vegas to bend Rutherford over a barrel here if this is the route that the Penguins go down. They'll get a pretty piece, but it's not going to be a 1st rounder. Considering the trade board barely considers Murray as worth a 1st rounder in a vacuum, the Pens are still likely to have to leave Pouliot unprotected. It's not just a case of the Pens paying full market value just to keep Murray, it'll be Murray vs. Pouliot/Schultz/Bonino/whatever and a pick. You also have to recognize who is running the Las Vegas team right now...GMGM isn't the type of guy that burns bridges, and Rutherford is the type of GM who will make sure Vegas gets something decent for their side of the bargain (remember, for better or worse he made a fair market value deal to the Pens to get Jordan Staal back when he was with the Canes, despite Staal demanding a trade to Carolina...he'll make it worth Vegas's while to look somewhere else for goaltending, and there will still be plenty of quality options available). On a related note, Schultz is a RFA again after this season, so if he has a good year he'd also be a very appealing option for Vegas considering how much value puck-moving RHDs have in this league. It's hard to imagine either Pouliot or Schultz being protected over Letang, Määttä, or Dumoulin and you have to imagine young PMDs will be near the top of what GMGM is looking for.

We've seen these kinds of moves before, and I expect we'll see them again. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if the Pens roll into 2017-18 still with the tandem of Fleury & Murray...we'll just be short a good defenseman with a ton of upside and a 3rd round pick.

The NHL does recognize partial NMC's. They've just decided that players with any type of NMC (including partial) need to be protected in the expansion draft. As opposed to only players with full NMC's.

 

[Lonewolfe2015]

Interesting situation with Fleury, thanks for the insight.

Either way, I don't see Vegas reaping crazy rewards for not selecting players. It's actually far more likely (imo) that an early trade windows grants them the chance to take on overpaid veterans prior to free agency and the draft in exchange for promising picks and prospects. Similar to what Arizona went and did.

 

[Big McLargehuge]

The NHL does recognize partial NMC's. They've just decided that players with any type of NMC (including partial) need to be protected in the expansion draft. As opposed to only players with full NMC's.

I meant that they don't recognize partial NMCs in the case of this expansion draft, I should have been clearer there. If they didn't recognize partial NMCs at all then Fleury's contract wouldn't have gone through in the first place. Fleury is probably getting a little more money in return for having a partial no-trade clause (he can submit a team of 12 teams that he won't accept a deal to before the season starts) instead of a full NMC. The unfortunate thing for the Pens here is that the partial NMC feels superfluous...it's hard to imagine a scenario where Fleury would be put on waivers within the next 3 years regardless, it was just an extra layer of protection for Fleury that could, potentially, cost him the chance to finish the contract in Pittsburgh at all. If Vegas isn't willing to take something to select another Penguins player instead then Fleury will be moved out, be it via trade or buyout. Barring Murray becoming the most insufferable human being on the planet I don't see a scenario where the Pens leave Murray unprotected.

 

[Street Hawk]

So for Pittsburgh situation.. Pittsburgh could trade them a pick or player in exchange for not selecting Murray in the draft?

But keep in mind that LV needs nhl calibre goaltending.

So, any deal they make is all part of icing a team.

If they don't take a goalie from Pittsburgh, they still need to get goalies from other teams. Have to consider who the best ones are that will be available to them.

LV can't do deals with all teams to bypass a player. They need to ice a somewhat competitive team. They have to balance getting draft picks with what they can get in the expansion draft.

 

[derriko]

Interesting situation with Fleury, thanks for the insight.

Either way, I don't see Vegas reaping crazy rewards for not selecting players. It's actually far more likely (imo) that an early trade windows grants them the chance to take on overpaid veterans prior to free agency and the draft in exchange for promising picks and prospects. Similar to what Arizona went and did.

Thing with that is Vegas is not Arizona 2.0. Foley has been quoted multiple times saying this is going to be a cap team.

You want them to take Dustin Brown? Ryan Clowe, etc..Theres a very large premium attached there because Vegas will be competitive in UFA if they dont reach the minimum through the draft.

Players and vets wont be taken for their salary. They will be taken on merit. They could dish out overpaid but short term contracts in UFA if it comes to that.

 

[llamateizer]

But keep in mind that LV needs nhl calibre goaltending.

So, any deal they make is all part of icing a team.

If they don't take a goalie from Pittsburgh, they still need to get goalies from other teams. Have to consider who the best ones are that will be available to them.

LV can't do deals with all teams to bypass a player. They need to ice a somewhat competitive team. They have to balance getting draft picks with what they can get in the expansion draft.

Bishop will be UFA at the end of the Season. TBL will likely stay with Vasilevsky