Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[Pia8988]

Stone is the best captain in the league doing whatever is needed to win

 

[pantherbot]

But if you iced a cap compliant roster in the regular season and then still iced a cap compliant roster in the post season. At what point did you circumvent the cap?

How do you circumvent something you’ve always been within the confines of? Circumventing the cap should give Vegas a competitive edge by disregarding the cap and icing a roster that’s well over what the cap is set at, something they have not done.

Further to your point that everyone is cap compliant, that alone invalidates this entire thread

Again.... They ARE benefiting even if the iced team doesn't exceed the cap. Because they were able to add Hanifin, Hertl, and Mantha with Stone out. They're only under the cap threshold because Martinez got hurt after the trade deadline.

Without utilizing the LTIR loophole, Vegas would be icing a team without Hanifin and Hertl essentially replacing Martinez and would be well-below the cap, just like every other team would have to be in this situation.

 

[TheBeard]

Martinez got hurt after the trade deadline.

conveniently as well I might add. Dude was ass for a while leading up and then suddenly he came down with an injury serious enough to remove his cap hit. He was undoubtedly the worst D-man on the team prior to whatever mystery injury came about.

 

[pantherbot]

But if you iced a cap compliant roster in the regular season and then still iced a cap compliant roster in the post season. At what point did you circumvent the cap?

How do you circumvent something you’ve always been within the confines of? Circumventing the cap should give Vegas a competitive edge by disregarding the cap and icing a roster that’s well over what the cap is set at, something they have not done.

Further to your point that everyone is cap compliant, that alone invalidates this entire thread

Iced roster is just a shade under $87M tonight. Now do we have permission to be annoyed??

 

[Three On Zero]

Iced roster is just a shade under $87M tonight. Now do we have permission to be annoyed??

OP said it doesn’t matter in playoffs

 

[pantherbot]

OP said it doesn’t matter in playoffs

I honestly don't even care that Vegas specifically are the ones doing this. Vegas/Tampa management just smart enough to take advantage. I wanted Florida to put Ekblad on LTIR to start the season, let him heal and use that cap space.

But I also see that this situation is messed up. Don't know why it's so hard to acknowledge Vegas management smart enough to benefit from using LTIR loophole to ice a team well above the cap.

 

[Fishy McScales]

I knew about Suter & Parise; though I could have worded my request for details better.

You’re new to etiquette/courtesy, aren’t you?

No, it's not about etiquette, it's what happened with contracts like those which you gave the impression of not being aware of.

 

[Zirakzigil]

Iced roster is just a shade under $87M tonight. Now do we have permission to be annoyed??

Weak. I want to see them break 100mil.

 

[Koivu11]

 

[John Mandalorian]

He had a lacerated spleen for goodness sakes. And no nothing was faked. There have been many former AGMs and GMs etc that have gone through how the league monitors this stuff. There is no falsifying medical reports going on.

He suffered the injury Feb 20. He returned to the lineup 2 months + 2 days after receiving the injury. For mere mortals that are not professional athletes recovery can be up to 8 months! Guidance used to be 3-6 months before resuming normal athletic endeavours. There was a case study on a couple of pro hockey players about a decade ago that had them both getting cleared at 2 months...which lines up with this injury.

Sorry but this misses the mark. Teams can opinion shop. Different doctors can make different interpretations. Also, certain injuries involve gray areas. All of these things are a playground for teams to exploit.

 

[WhataKnight]

No, it's not about etiquette, it's what happened with contracts like those which you gave the impression of not being aware of.

Etiquette, then. No need to approach so smugly.



They were signed to backdiving deals and the team bought them out. That, I knew. It looked “cut & shut” to me, and an entirely different situation than the method of contract management utilized by McCrimmon/Lugerner.

The argument involving those moves by the Wild didn’t seem relevant to the Knights, other than the desire for the league to assess penalties on them. For things the CBA allows. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Sorry but this misses the mark. Teams can opinion shop. Different doctors can make different interpretations. Also, certain injuries involve gray areas. All of these things are a playground for teams to exploit.

At the end of that process, it’s still proctored by the league.

While I don’t mean you, the impression given in this thread from time to time reads as though people believe none of this has oversight.

 

[John Mandalorian]

Etiquette, then. No need to approach so smugly.



They were signed to backdiving deals and the team bought them out. That, I knew. It looked “cut & shut” to me, and an entirely different situation than the method of contract management utilized by McCrimmon/Lugerner.

The argument involving those moves by the Wild didn’t seem relevant to the Knights, other than the desire for the league to assess penalties on them. For things the CBA allows. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯



At the end of that process, it’s still proctored by the league.

While I don’t mean you, the impression given in this thread from time to time reads as though people believe none of this has oversight.

So if a team finds a doctor who has more “conservative” recovery timelines, the league doctors are going to disagree with the more conservative/“better safe than sorry” prognosis?

How likely is that?

 

[WhataKnight]

So if a team finds a doctor who has more “conservative” recovery timelines, the league doctors are going to disagree with the more conservative/“better safe than sorry” prognosis?

How likely is that?

From what I’ve found, the 25 US teams seem to have a set medical staff.

I don’t know where the expectation is that they find a “Dr. Nick” to push something dubious when the league does their own diligence.

Also should be added - I’d have thought after complaints last year over how the Knights operate would have resulted in a huge “not so fast” from the league were anything untoward, both over last year’s back injury and this year’s spleen. I just have trouble there.

 

[Ted Hoffman]

I wonder how long the NFL would put up with some loophole that allowed one team to circumvent their hard cap to load up on talent before the playoffs to win one Super Bowl and then do it again but even worse the following year. I'd guess this would be resolved in about 3 hours.

NFL teams can sign up to 4 free agents during the playoffs, max 2 free agents in a week. I'm mostly certain they don't count against the cap.

So yeah ... they could do it. And, it would perfectly legal. And, the NFL knows it and it's still perfectly legal.

Meanwhile, in the joke that is the NHL - each team and the head office has their own set of "capologists" actively monitoring player and team salaries in real time to ensure that players cannot receive even one single penny beyond their 50% slice of the overall pie.

Actually, to be accurate, they actively monitor to make sure teams don't go over the cap. What you're describing is the Players' Share, which is the 50/50 cut of HRR, which teams don't give a shit about because if they overspend that mark it just comes out of the pockets of the players.

And I'm willing to wager two weeks of salary that about half the capologists still don't really know what they're doing beyond what's programmed into something - but they're getting better, because even 5 years ago I'd have bet a year's worth of salary that there weren't 5 competent capologists across all the teams, program or no program.

And since we don't know how big the pie is until the season is over, we have another army of accountants managing escrow and associated payroll and tax deductions related to escrow.

I suspect "army of accounts managing escrow" is a gross exaggeration, and the same "army of accountants" managing payroll and tax deductions for the players, front office staff and everyone else working for the team doesn't do anything different when it comes to escrow. They certainly don't hire more people specifically to deal with escrow.

The hard cap is so essential to the sanctity of the league that several teams have had to dress (and PLAY) zamboni drivers as goaltenders for meaningless games in February but not crucial as to prevent one team from gaining a 20% talent advantage when the championship is being decided.

That's not what happened, but let's not let a good rant get in the way of the facts.

 

[johnnybbadd]

Vegas isn’t even the biggest abuser of the current LTIR situation. That title goes to Toronto because they put 3 awful contracts that their GMs signed on LTIR. If people are questioning Vegas doctors with Stone why aren’t people questioning Toronto’s doctors for Klingberg and Murray? There are many more examples in the league also with other teams.

 

[SimpleJack]

I’m honestly in awe of how loaded the VGK roster is. Not even complaining or saying that they’re cheating or anything….i just think it’s insane how stacked they are lol. They were literally ALREADY loaded just as is(the same exact roster that won the Cup only minus R. Smith).

To then add 3 players the caliber of Hertl, Hanafin, and Mantha to that is CRAZY.

One of the most loaded lineups on paper position by position that you will ever see. They took advantage of the loophole and have themselves a team for the ages because of it.

 

[DS7]

I’m honestly in awe of how loaded the VGK roster is. Not even complaining or saying that they’re cheating or anything….i just think it’s insane how stacked they are lol. They were literally ALREADY loaded just as is(the same exact roster that won the Cup only minus R. Smith).

To then add 3 players the caliber of Hertl, Hanafin, and Mantha to that is CRAZY.

One of the most loaded lineups on paper position by position that you will ever see. They took advantage of the loophole and have themselves a team for the ages because of it.

In hindsight it doesn't matter but man imagine what moves we could have made if Demko got hurt just 3 days earlier in March. We'd have 5M to play with at the TDL.

There's nothing smart about exploiting this loop hole. It's just luck.

 

[SimpleJack]

In hindsight it doesn't matter but man imagine what moves we could have made if Demko got hurt just 3 days earlier in March. We'd have 5M to play with at the TDL.

There's nothing smart about exploiting this loop hole. It's just luck.

Luck definitely plays a part. I think the league will eventually address this.

 

[RJMA]

In time, Knights fans will feel about the 2023 Cup the way Heat fans feel about the Big 3 era: fun, but not real.

 

[TruePowerSlave]

Vegas is just taking full use of the rules, wish the Avs would do everything to win.

 

[nickdawg95]

Vegas isn’t even the biggest abuser of the current LTIR situation. That title goes to Toronto because they put 3 awful contracts that their GMs signed on LTIR. If people are questioning Vegas doctors with Stone why aren’t people questioning Toronto’s doctors for Klingberg and Murray? There are many more examples in the league also with other teams.

don't forgot robidas,lupul and many many more !!!

 

[tantalum]

Sorry but this misses the mark. Teams can opinion shop. Different doctors can make different interpretations. Also, certain injuries involve gray areas. All of these things are a playground for teams to exploit.

Ah yes the famous opinion shopping for a lacerated spleen diagnosis.. lol.

What misses the mark is people constantly thinking professionals are willing to risk lawsuits, hits to personal integrity, and professional reputation. The league literally confirms these things. There isn’t a playoff bound team that loses a key player near the deadline on a long term injury that doesn’t try to replace him.

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

Ah yes the famous opinion shopping for a lacerated spleen diagnosis.. lol.

What misses the mark is people constantly thinking professionals are willing to risk lawsuits, hits to personal integrity, and professional reputation. The league literally confirms these things. There isn’t a playoff bound team that loses a key player near the deadline on a long term injury that doesn’t try to replace him.

You really believe that Stone was too injured to dress for game 82 and started exponentially healing in time for game 83 to rock out the second highest TOI of any Vegas forward?

 

[tantalum]

You really believe that Stone was too injured to dress for game 82 and started exponentially healing in time for game 83 to rock out the second highest TOI of any Vegas forward?

Just as believable as someone ready to dress for game 51 but wasn't for 50... He was cleared to return to practice April 12. He played his first game 10 days later which a reasonable amount of practice time for an extended injury. Why wouldn't you wait for a player to be back to full strength before putting them in the lineup? That's what normally happens during the regular season unless you are in a tight race. But of course the Knights were in a tight race and STILL didn't play their captain and arguably best forward. That should tell you something. Yes he played a decent amount of time but it was below his season average of nearly 20 minutes.

Lacerated spleen injuries are a MINIMUM of 6 weeks and those 6 weeks are essentially no activity. He was back in almost exactly 2 months which is what has been documented as a normal time for return to professional hockey in case studies.

People need to get over this. He was hurt for long term. He came back in the expected timeframe (you nor I would likely be able to return to beer league as quick as he returned to an elite league with that injury). It is legitimately an injury that can take 6 months to heal). And most importantly the NHL is not going to get rid of the rule. It drives late season trades which gets them press. They do monitor it unless numerous executives (current and ex) are lying which they are not. Nor are the Knights the only team over the cap....

 

[2for1PizzaPastuh]

Just as believable as someone ready to dress for game 51 but wasn't for 50... He was cleared to return to practice April 12. He played his first game 10 days later which a reasonable amount of practice time for an extended injury. Why wouldn't you wait for a player to be back to full strength before putting them in the lineup? That's what normally happens during the regular season unless you are in a tight race. But of course the Knights were in a tight race and STILL didn't play their captain and arguably best forward. That should tell you something. Yes he played a decent amount of time but it was below his season average of nearly 20 minutes.

Lacerated spleen injuries are a MINIMUM of 6 weeks and those 6 weeks are essentially no activity. He was back in almost exactly 2 months which is what has been documented as a normal time for return to professional hockey in case studies.

People need to get over this. He was hurt for long term. He came back in the expected timeframe (you nor I would likely be able to return to beer league as quick as he returned to an elite league with that injury). It is legitimately an injury that can take 6 months to heal). And most importantly the NHL is not going to get rid of the rule. It drives late season trades which gets them press. They do monitor it unless numerous executives (current and ex) are lying which they are not. Nor are the Knights the only team over the cap....

Sure, it might be comparable to game 50 -> 51... if this wasn't the third year in a row it's happened to the same player.

Comparing his TOI to his season average is disingenuous. All of their forwards played fewer minutes, and, again... he still had the second highest TOI.