Vegas about to circumvent cap again? UPD: Mark Stone back practicing.

[pantherbot]

Of course the players want the current LTIR system. Collectively they make more money.

How would they be making less money if the LTIR/playoff issue was fixed? There's no change in dollar amounts.

 

[pantherbot]

Some GMs might say it should be looked at, but the thing is that it HAS been looked and the answer has been "we don't see a need for a solution." This is because while a GM might not like it now, they also don't like the idea of not having this option if the situation happened to their team in the future. I'm not sure there's any stronger a movement against this stuff now than already existed, which wasn't much.

Fans don't like it. Media doesn't like it. Neither group has a role in the decision making process that would change it.

Don't think the GMs think they can benefit by loading up. The ability to actually benefit from this loophole is based on random injury "luck". And as has been said here by others, not all teams would have the budget to take full advantage. So if anything, most teams would be negatively affected by this. But I could see some GMs that look at this loophole as an opportunity to benefit by being able to get rid of a contract, not benefit by loading up.

Dealing with it also requires re-working the CBA and it probably wasn't an issue they felt was worth the trouble. Last time they looked into the issue was after Chicago did it once. Now its Tampa and Vegas twice, feels different.

Entirely possible the GM group may feel the same this time and do nothing. I think it'll also depend on how the NHLPA feels about it. Everyone framing this as just an NHL issue and they have to give up something to negotiate a solution, but at least some players seem to care. Not ruling out that nothing happens, but this time there's way more noise about it and its happened multiple times now.

 

[Tawnos]

Don't think the GMs think they can benefit by loading up. The ability to actually benefit from this loophole is based on random injury "luck". And as has been said here by others, not all teams would have the budget to take full advantage. So if anything, most teams would be negatively affected by this. But I could see some GMs that look at this loophole as an opportunity to benefit by being able to get rid of a contract, not benefit by loading up.

Dealing with it also requires re-working the CBA and it probably wasn't an issue they felt was worth the trouble. Last time they looked into the issue was after Chicago did it once. Now its Tampa and Vegas twice, feels different.

Entirely possible the GM group may feel the same this time and do nothing. I think it'll also depend on how the NHLPA feels about it. Everyone framing this as just an NHL issue and they have to give up something to negotiate a solution, but at least some players seem to care. Not ruling out that nothing happens, but this time there's way more noise about it and its happened multiple times now.

I get the imbalance, but at the end of the conversations they've had about it so far, it's hasn't affected their conclusions. Because while not everyone can take full advantage, but everyone wants the ability to take advantage if it happens to them.

You're wrong when you say the last time they looked at it was after Kane. They looked at it at the GM meetings in 2022. And then they considered it for the docket this year and specifically decided not to.

A few players here or there might care, but most of them don't want any possibility of being denied the ability to compete for the Cup.

 

[Voight]

If the league does nothing this will be a thing every year moving forward.

Not really; you can't just make up injuries and force a player to be out long term.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Not really; you can't just make up injuries and force a player to be out long term.

I don't think the injuries are made up, but the team medical staffs sure do make the timing impeccable don't they?

 

[Voight]

On the off chance that someone is legitimately injured and is healthy right before the playoffs/early in the first round. My solution is you can replace any LTIR guy with a player making $1M or less. You can still ice a full roster and you don't have a mysterious $9.5M in cap space. No one cares if someone is over the cap by a couple million because have injuries.

Everyone (Except the teams that have worked the system) cares if teams load up at the deadline and add $10M in players with the plan that they will hold the LTIR players out until Game 83 to ensure they are cap compliant regardless of whether they are healthy or not.

Owners will never agree to that. Try telling Daryl Katz that McDavid is out for the first round and you can only replace him with a scrub.

I don't think the injuries are made up, but the team medical staffs sure do make the timing impeccable don't they?

I won't deny they are likely over generous with the timelines but straight up lying would leave them at risk of losing their medical license. One doctor could say a guys out 4-6 weeks, another could say 3-5 weeks. Neither would be wrong.

 

[pantherbot]

I get the imbalance, but at the end of the conversations they've had about it so far, it's hasn't affected their conclusions. Because while not everyone can take full advantage, but everyone wants the ability to take advantage if it happens to them.

You're wrong when you say the last time they looked at it was after Kane. They looked at it at the GM meetings in 2022. And then they considered it for the docket this year and specifically decided not to.

A few players here or there might care, but most of them don't want any possibility of being denied the ability to compete for the Cup.

What I mean is it hasn't been seriously discussed. Those 2022 discussions you mentioned were brief and they dismissed it as an issue that doesn't come up that often. But clearly it has come up often now when you look back. It's four times in the last ten years.

This time, the executive committee met and decided to ask all the GMs for feedback, that's different from having a half hour conversation on the issue and moving on.

Disagree that most players don't care because it denies them ability to compete for the cup, that doesn't make sense. Only one team can win. If you're a player in the Western conference not on Vegas, or you were one of the teams that Tampa beat, it negatively affected your chance of winning. I could see players not caring because they don't feel it changes the competitive balance that much, a lot of them will say the game is played on the ice and feel they can beat any team, but it wouldn't be because they think it helps them compete for a Cup.

 

[Chaos2k7]

Owners will never agree to that. Try telling Daryl Katz that McDavid is out for the first round and you can only replace him with a scrub.



I won't deny they are likely over generous with the timelines but straight up lying would leave them at risk of losing their medical license. One doctor could say a guys out 4-6 weeks, another could say 3-5 weeks. Neither would be wrong.

They said his playoff availability was in doubt, if so he is back 2 months early?

 

[Tawnos]

What I mean is it hasn't been seriously discussed. Those 2022 discussions you mentioned were brief and they dismissed it as an issue that doesn't come up that often. But clearly it has come up often now when you look back. It's four times in the last ten years.

This time, the executive committee met and decided to ask all the GMs for feedback, that's different from having a half hour conversation on the issue and moving on.

Disagree that most players don't care because it denies them ability to compete for the cup, that doesn't make sense. Only one team can win. If you're a player in the Western conference not on Vegas, or you were one of the teams that Tampa beat, it negatively affected your chance of winning. I could see players not caring because they don't feel it changes the competitive balance that much, a lot of them will say the game is played on the ice and feel they can beat any team, but it wouldn't be because they think it helps them compete for a Cup.

Like I said, the GMs considered it this year and decided not it wasn't even worth discussing. It's 4 times in 10 years, but each time has been investigated by the league and there are no issues. I think that's an important point. The GMs don't feel like it's a problem because no one is doing anything underhanded. And it's probably going to be 5 times. My Rangers are about to do the same thing as Vegas.

When I said compete for the Cup, all I meant by that was play in the playoffs. Playing in the playoffs is competing for the Cup. There's a connection here you aren't making. You're arguing the player's point of view from the wrong side of the issue. The issue for most players isn't when someone gets to play and their opponent has the advantage. It's the idea that they might be perfectly healthy, but prevented from playing in the playoffs. Yes, technically they were also prevented from playing in the regular season since the Cap and LTIR rules stopped the team from activating them, but that's not nearly as big of a deal as not getting to play in the playoffs.

 

[Nemec]

The salary cap makes every team equal. Unfortunately some teams are more equal than others.

 

[pantherbot]

Like I said, the GMs considered it this year and decided not it wasn't even worth discussing. It's 4 times in 10 years, but each time has been investigated by the league and there are no issues. I think that's an important point. The GMs don't feel like it's a problem because no one is doing anything underhanded. And it's probably going to be 5 times. My Rangers are about to do the same thing as Vegas.

When I said compete for the Cup, all I meant by that was play in the playoffs. Playing in the playoffs is competing for the Cup. There's a connection here you aren't making. You're arguing the player's point of view from the wrong side of the issue. The issue for most players isn't when someone gets to play and their opponent has the advantage. It's the idea that they might be perfectly healthy, but prevented from playing in the playoffs. Yes, technically they were also prevented from playing in the regular season since the Cap and LTIR rules stopped the team from activating them, but that's not nearly as big of a deal as not getting to play in the playoffs.

Maybe you missed it, but LeBrun reported the NHL exec committee discussed it and the members were told to go to their respective GM groups for further discussion. It probably wasn't on the official agenda because the issue needs a deeper discusion. So no, its not the same as prior years when they talked about it for a few minutes and tabled the issue. This is being discussed more broadly and deeply than in the past.

To your second point, if the rule is that you can't compete in round 1 if on LTIR, that's a team decision keeping the player out, not the rule itself. And maybe you're right, the players don't want this, we don't really know, but that doesn't mean the LTIR/playoff issue more broadly is something the players don't want to see addressed with a different solution.

 

[Golden_Jet]

To your second point, if the rule is that you can't compete in round 1 if on LTIR, that's a team decision keeping the player out, not the rule itself.

Lmao, if there is a rule that you can’t compete in round 1, that’s not because of the rule,

 

[Tawnos]

Maybe you missed it, but LeBrun reported the NHL exec committee discussed it and the members were told to go to their respective GM groups for further discussion. It probably wasn't on the official agenda because the issue needs a deeper discusion. So no, its not the same as prior years when they talked about it for a few minutes and tabled the issue. This is being discussed more broadly and deeply than in the past.

To your second point, if the rule is that you can't compete in round 1 if on LTIR, that's a team decision keeping the player out, not the rule itself. And maybe you're right, the players don't want this, we don't really know, but that doesn't mean the LTIR/playoff issue more broadly is something the players don't want to see addressed with a different solution.

"For further discussion" is the same as dropping it this year.

I have no idea what you mean by "a team decision keeping the player out, not the rule itself"... the team is prevented from playing one of their healthy players by the rule. Maybe you could try explaining that one better?

 

[Zerotonine]

The salary cap makes every team equal. Unfortunately some teams are more equal than others.

I think this is a lie tpnspme degree. Given certain states are tax havens lol. I think the league needs to make things a level playing field in that regard

 

[pantherbot]

Lmao, if there is a rule that you can’t compete in round 1, that’s not because of the rule,

"For further discussion" is the same as dropping it this year.

I have no idea what you mean by "a team decision keeping the player out, not the rule itself"... the team is prevented from playing one of their healthy players by the rule. Maybe you could try explaining that one better?

If a team feels like a player is ready to play, then he'll be taken off LTIR, if he's not ready to play then he'll stay. The argument against this idea is framing it as if a player won't be able to play if they are able, which just doesn't make sense.

If the player was likely to return for round 1 and the player was someone the team wanted to play, they would activate him and they won't miss any games. If the player wasn't ready to return anyways or it was a player they didn't care to have play anyways, then they would have missed round 1 anyways.

Take the Stone example. If the rule was that team's need to be cap compliant by game 82 or before playoffs and players on LTIR are ineligible for Round 1, how do you think it'd play out? Stone would be activated and they wouldn't have done the LTIR loophole things.

You might argue "well Vegas didn't get to use the LTIR space to sign Hanifin or whoever", but how's that different from any other time in the season when a team has a major injury but expects the player to come back? Vegas can still use LTIR for temporary relief by calling up players, just like at any other time in the season, and when the playoffs start there's no cap.

 

[Slats432]

Owners will never agree to that. Try telling Daryl Katz that McDavid is out for the first round and you can only replace him with a scrub.



I won't deny they are likely over generous with the timelines but straight up lying would leave them at risk of losing their medical license. One doctor could say a guys out 4-6 weeks, another could say 3-5 weeks. Neither would be wrong.

You are missing the point. If the other option is being cap compliant in the playoffs, this allows a small overage. It is absolutely better than saying a guy can't play in the first round if he is on LTIR just before the playoffs.

 

[pantherbot]

"For further discussion" is the same as dropping it this year.

I really don't think so. Quoting from LeBrun's article below, they are keeping the discussion going and its more than just "we'll talk about it next time." Maybe you just have a different interpretation.

And in that discussion on Sunday, it was determined (likely from direction via Bettman and Daly), that the executive committee members should canvas their entire GM group at large over the coming weeks and months to get a truer sense of where the feelings lie on this issue.

“That’s what I threw out as a possible way for us to talk about it,” Daly confirmed Wednesday after the NHL GM meetings wrapped up. “So they undertook to talk to the managers and they’re going to get back to me.’’

And when the executive committee GMs come back to Daly with their feedback, that’s when the league will decide whether to approach the NHLPA about it.

 

[Voight]

You are missing the point. If the other option is being cap compliant in the playoffs, this allows a small overage. It is absolutely better than saying a guy can't play in the first round if he is on LTIR just before the playoffs.

Or... just leave things they way they are.

They said his playoff availability was in doubt, if so he is back 2 months early?

Playoff availability is a broad term. That could mean he may not be available for the first round, or the second or third etc. Its not like they said "Stone will be out until after the first round"

 

[Tawnos]

If a team feels like a player is ready to play, then he'll be taken off LTIR, if he's not ready to play then he'll stay. The argument against this idea is framing it as if a player won't be able to play if they are able, which just doesn't make sense.

If the player was likely to return for round 1 and the player was someone the team wanted to play, they would activate him and they won't miss any games. If the player wasn't ready to return anyways or it was a player they didn't care to have play anyways, then they would have missed round 1 anyways.

Take the Stone example. If the rule was that team's need to be cap compliant by game 82 or before playoffs and players on LTIR are ineligible for Round 1, how do you think it'd play out? Stone would be activated and they wouldn't have done the LTIR loophole things.

You might argue "well Vegas didn't get to use the LTIR space to sign Hanifin or whoever", but how's that different from any other time in the season when a team has a major injury but expects the player to come back? Vegas can still use LTIR for temporary relief by calling up players, just like at any other time in the season, and when the playoffs start there's no cap.

OK, so here's the problem. You can't activate someone from LTIR for game 82 if you don't have cap space. This would actually be true during the rest of the season too, but it's a situation the GM can plan around in that case. In other words, you're asking GMs to make decisions on whether or not to replace an LTIR'd player in March, when it might not be clear if he'll be ready for the playoffs. In Stone's case, no one really knew at that time. Same thing with Chytil. Most GMs aren't going to be ok with making those kinds of decisions based on information that has holes in it.

There's another side of it. Let's say Vegas did have an idea that Stone could be back early in the playoffs, but definitely not before that. We aren't talking about a team that was in a secure playoff spot. Now you're asking the GM to make a decision that could cost them a playoff appearance at all because of a circumstance where a player might be back. And if the GM decides to use the LTIR space to try to shore up the roster to make sure they get there, you run into another issue at the game 82 cap compliance. It isn't actually possible to do.

 

[pantherbot]

OK, so here's the problem. You can't activate someone from LTIR for game 82 if you don't have cap space. This would actually be true during the rest of the season too, but it's a situation the GM can plan around in that case. In other words, you're asking GMs to make decisions on whether or not to replace an LTIR'd player in March, when it might not be clear if he'll be ready for the playoffs. In Stone's case, no one really knew at that time. Same thing with Chytil. Most GMs aren't going to be ok with making those kinds of decisions based on information that has holes in it.

There's another side of it. Let's say Vegas did have an idea that Stone could be back early in the playoffs, but definitely not before that. We aren't talking about a team that was in a secure playoff spot. Now you're asking the GM to make a decision that could cost them a playoff appearance at all because of a circumstance where a player might be back. And if the GM decides to use the LTIR space to try to shore up the roster to make sure they get there, you run into another issue at the game 82 cap compliance. It isn't actually possible to do.

Well I'll just have to disagree that GM's aren't ok with making those kind of decisions, they make it all the time when a player is hurt during the season and they have to decide whether or not that player comes back during the season. If they are expected to come back, then a GM can't use the full LTIR relief.

There's nothing that says teams must be able to use their full LTIR cap relief. It's there for reinforcement, not full replacement. If they want that player back they make room under the cap. It'd just be the same if Stone got the spleen injury in game 10 and expected him back by game 40.

Also, maybe you're right and this idea doesn't fly. Nobody here really knows what would be accepted by the league and players, doesn't mean they don't want to address the issue with another method.

 

[Golden_Jet]

If a team feels like a player is ready to play, then he'll be taken off LTIR, if he's not ready to play then he'll stay. The argument against this idea is framing it as if a player won't be able to play if they are able, which just doesn't make sense.

If the player was likely to return for round 1 and the player was someone the team wanted to play, they would activate him and they won't miss any games. If the player wasn't ready to return anyways or it was a player they didn't care to have play anyways, then they would have missed round 1 anyways.

Take the Stone example. If the rule was that team's need to be cap compliant by game 82 or before playoffs and players on LTIR are ineligible for Round 1, how do you think it'd play out? Stone would be activated and they wouldn't have done the LTIR loophole things.

You might argue "well Vegas didn't get to use the LTIR space to sign Hanifin or whoever", but how's that different from any other time in the season when a team has a major injury but expects the player to come back? Vegas can still use LTIR for temporary relief by calling up players, just like at any other time in the season, and when the playoffs start there's no cap.

Sometimes a player isn’t healthy until game 3 of the playoffs, now has to sit out a series and hope his team wins round 1.

You still never think of all the what ifs, it’s entertainment though.

 

[pantherbot]

Sometimes a player isn’t healthy until game 3 of the playoffs, now has to sit out a series and hope his team wins round 1.

You still never think of all the what ifs, it’s entertainment though.

Again, if that's a possibility and it's a player the team wants to play, they will make room. And that team is handicapped by the injury, but it's the same as if a player was injured after the deadline.

You're looking at it as if a team must be able to go right to the cap and never be disadvantaged by an injury to a star player.

 

[Zirakzigil]

The issue with LTIR is that there is no easy fix. Even something like stating a team can only ice a team that is cap compliant doesnt work. Because a lot of trades at the deadline are based on accrued cap space.

 

[Tawnos]

Well I'll just have to disagree that GM's aren't ok with making those kind of decisions, they make it all the time when a player is hurt during the season and they have to decide whether or not that player comes back during the season. If they are expected to come back, then a GM can't use the full LTIR relief.

There's nothing that says teams must be able to use their full LTIR cap relief. It's there for reinforcement, not full replacement. If they want that player back they make room under the cap. It'd just be the same if Stone got the spleen injury in game 10 and expected him back by game 40.

We will have to disagree, but I think you have your head in the sand here. All you have to do is look at trade prices at the deadline to know that the decisions they make to know that it's not the same as game 10.

Again, if that's a possibility and it's a player the team wants to play, they will make room. And that team is handicapped by the injury, but it's the same as if a player was injured after the deadline.

You're looking at it as if a team must be able to go right to the cap and never be disadvantaged by an injury to a star player.

I am looking at it that way, but that's because I think most of the players and GMs look at it that way too.

 

[Slats432]

Or... just leave things they way they are.



Playoff availability is a broad term. That could mean he may not be available for the first round, or the second or third etc. Its not like they said "Stone will be out until after the first round"

The way things are is broken judging by everyone other than Golden Knights and Lightning fans having an issue with it. If your position is "I like the system where healthy players don't have to play so teams can circumvent the cap." we don't have much to talk about.