Proposal: VAN-PIT Mikheyev and Graves.

[biturbo19]

While disconsolate and maybe a bit inebriated following the heartbreaking Canucks loss last night...some wheels in my brain started turning.

Probably going to get yelled at angrily from both sides on this, but how would ya'll feel about a swap like this?



To PIT: Ilya Mikheyev ($4.75M x 2 more years).

To VAN: Ryan Graves ($4.5M x 5 more years). + Reilly Smith (with $2M retained bringing him to $3M x 1 year).



Penguins get out from under that Graves mistake. I think he's exactly the sort of defenceman who might thrive under Tocchet and Foote in Vancouver. He's cut from that same cloth as Myers who stabilized a lot, and Zadorov who really thrived there. Big aggressive guys who can skate but really need the game simplified for them a bit. If Zaddy wants $6M...Graves starts looking like a bargain at $4.5M.

Dubas obviously has familiarity with Mikheyev and seemed to like him a lot. Probably drive Penguin fans nuts playing on Croz/Malkin's wing all year. But he does bring decent size and a lot of speed (when he's healthy). Elements they could probably use.

Smith is the real throw-in here. Weirdly as a "sweetener" with retention. Kind of twisting things around a bit. To balance the extra years of Graves big dumb contract. Clearly needs a change of scenery, hasn't worked out in Pittsburgh at all. But i don't know that he's actually done. I like him as a linemate for either of Pettersson or Miller. At best...he bounces back to Vegas form and plays with Pettersson and scores a ton of goals since he's miles better than what Pete finished the season playing with. Worst case...he's a better PDG to play with Miller+Boeser, who actually has 20G+ level finishing ability. Responsible enough two-way player to easily handle the sort of matchups Miller plays.

Click to read more...

 

[Rowlet]

I'd rather have Mikheyev for another 2 years than Graves for another 5, maybe if the Pens retain a lot

 

[biturbo19]

I'd rather have Mikheyev for another 2 years than Graves for another 5, maybe if the Pens retain a lot

I just don't see any way the Penguins are going to retain on Graves for 5 years. I also don't see a lot of ways forward where the Canucks don't unload Mikheyev somehow (and they're pretty asset poor at the moment).

That's where this idea sort of came from. It's definitely a risky wager from the Canucks end. But that's where the retention on Reilly Smith comes in, to sort of soften that a bit. Getting a Top-6 Winger for relatively cheap. But it also doesn't tie Pittsburgh into 5 years of salary retention.

 

[Gurglesons]

Sure lol

 

[Rowlet]

I just don't see any way the Penguins are going to retain on Graves for 5 years. I also don't see a lot of ways forward where the Canucks don't unload Mikheyev somehow (and they're pretty asset poor at the moment).

That's where this idea sort of came from. It's definitely a risky wager from the Canucks end. But that's where the retention on Reilly Smith comes in, to sort of soften that a bit. Getting a Top-6 Winger for relatively cheap. But it also doesn't tie Pittsburgh into 5 years of salary retention.

They probably don't, but the Canucks could send a pick to SJ/CHI to get rid of Mikheyev, he's only got 2 years left. I don't like this deal for the Canucks because they've done this deal before. Cap dumps for David Booth, cap dumps (plus a pick) for OEL + Garland, and they never work out.

Chicago has taken Canucks' cap dumps for free and the Canucks and Hawks are on good terms, they took Beauvilier and flipped him, they could do the same for Mikheyev.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Yea, no thanks.

 

[biturbo19]

Sure lol

Did i screw over the Canucks in this, if it's that easy a yes from a Pens fan?

What would i have to do to shift it. How much more retention on Smith before you start feeling uncomfy about it?

They probably don't, but the Canucks could send a pick to SJ/CHI to get rid of Mikheyev, he's only got 2 years left. I don't like this deal for the Canucks because they've done this deal before. Cap dumps for David Booth, cap dumps (plus a pick) for OEL + Garland, and they never work out.

Chicago has taken Canucks' cap dumps for free and the Canucks and Hawks are on good terms, they took Beauvilier and flipped him, they could do the same for Mikheyev.

Beauvillier was a 1-year cap dump though. Mikheyev is a multi-year dump and a bigger salary too.

Chicago also charged Vancouver about the wazoo to dump a good play like Dickinson at a far lesser salary number with term remaining. It's an ugly world out there for teams looking to dump cap problems.

Yea, no thanks.

Any more insight about why? Or just nah?

 

[wetcoast]

Man Mikheyev sounds like a Russian translation of Lou Erickson right?

Canucks should just send him down to Abby.

 

[Rowlet]

Beauvillier was a 1-year cap dump though. Mikheyev is a multi-year dump and a bigger salary too.

Chicago also charged Vancouver about the wazoo to dump a good play like Dickinson at a far lesser salary number with term remaining. It's an ugly world out there for teams looking to dump cap problems.

I'd rather give up another 3rd than have 5 years of Ryan Graves at 4.5. Dickinson had 2 years left, Mikheyev has 2 left now.

 

[Peter Griffin]

Any more insight about why? Or just nah?

Zero interest in Graves and his contract.

 

[Gurglesons]

Did i screw over the Canucks in this, if it's that easy a yes from a Pens fan?

What would i have to do to shift it. How much more retention on Smith before you start feeling uncomfy about it?

I mean, you're taking on Ryan Graves.

That contract is atrocious from the moment it was signed.

 

[biturbo19]

I'd rather give up another 3rd than have 5 years of Ryan Graves at 4.5. Dickinson had 2 years left, Mikheyev has 2 left now.

Zero interest in Graves and his contract.

Is this basically the crux of the thing then?

Everyone hates Ryan Graves?


Dude played de facto shutdown minutes for the Devils a year ago and did a heck of a job in it. He had a rough year where he didn't fit with Letang or Karlsson and the Penguins don't know what to do with him and he's been a terrible fit in that Sully system for some reason. But he's a good defenceman and $4.5M is a lot less than it sounds like Zadorov is asking for.

 

[Aqualung]

No for the Canucks. Cap flexibility is king.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Absolutely not from the Penguins POV. I don't like the Graves deal, but I'm not eating $2 million in dead cap plus giving up Smith (who at $3 million would be valuable) just to swap Graves' contract for Mikheyev's.

I have no issues with Graves as their #5 D playing with St. Ivany on the 3rd pair, while I'm pretty sure there isn't a spot in the Penguins top-9 where I like Mikheyev.

 

[biturbo19]

Absolutely not from the Penguins POV. I don't like the Graves deal, but I'm not eating $2 million in dead cap plus giving up Smith (who at $3 million would be valuable) just to swap Graves' contract for Mikheyev's.

I have no issues with Graves as their #5 D playing with St. Ivany on the 3rd pair, while I'm pretty sure there isn't a spot in the Penguins top-9 where I like Mikheyev.

Fair and i appreciate the reasoning.

But i'm curious...what would you value Reilly Smith at? With $2M retention specifically i guess. But just in general.

The guy was traded to Pittsburgh for literally nothing at $5M. How much does retention add value to a player who had a pretty terrible season?


That was my thinking at least. Where getting out from all those extra years of Graves deal seems to be a sticking point for other Canucks fans. That's not a small risk to take on. But you also seem to be one of the few who are looking at him reasonably and understanding that he had a bad season...but isn't a totally useless dead weight player.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Fair and i appreciate the reasoning.

But i'm curious...what would you value Reilly Smith at? With $2M retention specifically i guess. But just in general.

The guy was traded to Pittsburgh for literally nothing at $5M. How much does retention add value to a player who had a pretty terrible season?


That was my thinking at least. Where getting out from all those extra years of Graves deal seems to be a sticking point for other Canucks fans. That's not a small risk to take on. But you also seem to be one of the few who are looking at him reasonably and understanding that he had a bad season...but isn't a totally useless dead weight player.

Here's the best way I can describe the issue with this deal from the Penguins POV: it does nothing for them in the short term. Yes, Mikheyev only having 2 years on his deal is definitely better than Graves having 5 years left, but why do the Penguins care about that? Even if you want to argue they have any "window" left, it's almost assuredly only in the 1-3 year range. This deal does nothing for them in the short term, in fact it hurts them in the short term due to having to eat $2.25 extra in cap space next year and $250k more in cap space in 2025-2026 to get a player that doesn't do anything for them.

If the Penguins were a team like Vancouver, with stars in their primes and still a good 5+ years away from contending, it would make sense. But that's just not the case with them, whether a bad deal is 2 years vs 6 years doesn't really make much of a difference for them. They're taking the short-term loss (since Smith is better than Mikheyev and they're eating dead cap next year) when the long-term benefit does almost nothing for them, because they're going to suck at that point anyway.

I don't think Graves is all that special of a player, but he's hardly an anchor if you're using him like an 17 minute a night #5D. I wouldn't mind moving out his deal, since $4.5 million a year for that kind of defenseman is a lot (although it won't be a lot in like 2 years with how the cap is going to rise), but there needs to be some sort of reason for the Penguins to do it. Getting another bad but shorter term deal for it doesn't really do anything for them.

 

[Dipsy Doodle]

Absolutely not from the Penguins POV. I don't like the Graves deal, but I'm not eating $2 million in dead cap plus giving up Smith (who at $3 million would be valuable) just to swap Graves' contract for Mikheyev's.

I have no issues with Graves as their #5 D playing with St. Ivany on the 3rd pair, while I'm pretty sure there isn't a spot in the Penguins top-9 where I like Mikheyev.

Why not 3rd line?

If he could slide into Smith's role for 2 years, bring some speed, and we move on from a bad fit in Graves, I'd say that's worth retaining 2 mil for one season.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Why not 3rd line?

If he could slide into Smith's role for 2 years, bring some speed, and we move on from a bad fit in Graves, I'd say that's wirth retaining 2 mil for one season.

Because their 3rd line should be O'Connor-Eller-Puustinen, or with a better 3C pushing Eller to 4C. They need a 1st line LW.

Their lineup right now should be:

XXXX-Crosby-Rust
Bunting-Malkin-Rakell
O'Connor-XXXXX-Puustinen

Mikheyev doesn't serve any sort of role in this lineup. Not only that, but he's also kinda terrible at this point.

 

[Rowlet]

Is this basically the crux of the thing then?

Everyone hates Ryan Graves?


Dude played de facto shutdown minutes for the Devils a year ago and did a heck of a job in it. He had a rough year where he didn't fit with Letang or Karlsson and the Penguins don't know what to do with him and he's been a terrible fit in that Sully system for some reason. But he's a good defenceman and $4.5M is a lot less than it sounds like Zadorov is asking for.

He's fine, but he doesn't have the snarl or intensity that Zadorov has, that I've seen at least.

If the Pens want to retain some, then we can talk.

 

[biturbo19]

Here's the best way I can describe the issue with this deal from the Penguins POV: it does nothing for them in the short term. Yes, Mikheyev only having 2 years on his deal is definitely better than Graves having 5 years left, but why do the Penguins care about that? Even if you want to argue they have any "window" left, it's almost assuredly only in the 1-3 year range. This deal does nothing for them in the short term, in fact it hurts them in the short term due to having to eat $2.25 extra in cap space next year and $250k more in cap space in 2025-2026 to get a player that doesn't do anything for them.

If the Penguins were a team like Vancouver, with stars in their primes and still a good 5+ years away from contending, it would make sense. But that's just not the case with them, whether a bad deal is 2 years vs 6 years doesn't really make much of a difference for them. They're taking the short-term loss (since Smith is better than Mikheyev and they're eating dead cap next year) when the long-term benefit does almost nothing for them, because they're going to suck at that point anyway.

Understandable. I guess it depends a little bit on where you think the Penguins are headed too. Also probably comes down to how you view the two main players.


I'd contest the idea that Smith is better than Mikheyev a bit. I think you're right...but given how poorly Smith has fit there, i'm not as sure on that. It feels like a potential "player would be better somewhere else" change of scenery sort of scenario to me. Same goes the other way on Graves...who evidently, a lot of people would not dare touch that contract. Personally, i think he's still a solid defenceman who fell into the entirely wrong situation. But others are looking at him like Ben Chiarot.




I just honestly think that Mikheyev is a solid 20G+ guy again playing a bit with Sid+Geno like he did for Dubas in Toronto. And i also think Graves is still a Top-4D with the right partner and system. But i guess both of those are probably opposed to consensus.

 

[Empoleon8771]

I know Penguins fans are upset with how poor Graves was last year, and even Dubas noted that Graves had a bad year, but I'm also not really seeing any sort of benefit for them to move him in a negative value type of move. They haven't made the playoffs in either of the last 2 years and their big guns aren't getting any younger. Unless the Penguins are trading Graves for a better player with a worse contract (like Huberdeau for example) or getting assets for swapping him for a worse contract, there's really not much of a reason to move him.

No sort of bad deals matter for the Penguins in 3+ years anyway, so I have no issues with getting an awful long-term deal for a better player today or getting some picks for taking a worse contract. But paying to get out of his deal, even if the kind of payment is something like "lose $2 million in cap space and downgrade your roster"? Like what's the point there?

The kind of deals I'd be fine with regarding Graves are like Graves for Kotkaniemi, Graves+ for PLD or Graves+ for Huberdeau. If those aren't available, I don't really see any sort of reason to move him.

 

[Gurglesons]

I know Penguins fans are upset with how poor Graves was last year, and even Dubas noted that Graves had a bad year, but I'm also not really seeing any sort of benefit for them to move him in a negative value type of move. They haven't made the playoffs in either of the last 2 years and their big guns aren't getting any younger. Unless the Penguins are trading Graves for a better player with a worse contract (like Huberdeau for example) or getting assets for swapping him for a worse contract, there's really not much of a reason to move him.

No sort of bad deals matter for the Penguins in 3+ years anyway, so I have no issues with getting an awful long-term deal for a better player today or getting some picks for taking a worse contract. But paying to get out of his deal, even if the kind of payment is something like "lose $2 million in cap space and downgrade your roster"? Like what's the point there?

The kind of deals I'd be fine with regarding Graves are like Graves for Kotkaniemi, Graves+ for PLD or Graves+ for Huberdeau. If those aren't available, I don't really see any sort of reason to move him.

The reason to move him is to get out of 5 years of an awful deal lol. It's pretty obvious.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The reason to move him is to get out of 5 years of an awful deal lol. It's pretty obvious.

You're the one that continues to advocate for guys like PLD and Kotkaniemi, so why do bad long-term deals suddenly matter for Graves?

 

[Gurglesons]

Is this basically the crux of the thing then?

Everyone hates Ryan Graves?


Dude played de facto shutdown minutes for the Devils a year ago and did a heck of a job in it. He had a rough year where he didn't fit with Letang or Karlsson and the Penguins don't know what to do with him and he's been a terrible fit in that Sully system for some reason. But he's a good defenceman and $4.5M is a lot less than it sounds like Zadorov is asking for.

He's Tyler Myers, but dumber and with no upside.

You're the one that continues to advocate for guys like PLD and Kotkaniemi, so why do bad long-term deals suddenly matter for Graves?

The idea with acquiring PLD and Kotkaniemi is dumping cap and getting a piece you can potentially move in a few years for some type of return.

Ryan Graves is never returning anything. If you can get out of the contract you do it as quickly as possible. It's Jack Johnson 2.0.

 

[Empoleon8771]

The idea with acquiring PLD and Kotkaniemi is dumping cap and getting a piece you can potentially move in a few years for some type of return.

Ryan Graves is never returning anything. If you can get out of the contract you do it as quickly as possible. It's Jack Johnson 2.0.

This is stupid logic. The Penguins aren't a contending team anymore, so paying anything or taking any sort of losing deal to get out of a contract at this point is just dumb asset management.

Bad teams don't pay to get out of bad deals. Bad teams acquire bad deals to get assets for them.