Speculation: Value of MoJo to Buffalo?

HunterSThompson

[}=[][][][][]
Jun 19, 2007
4,480
1,097
Washington, DC
Well you either believe in those stats or you don't.

The more I learn about them, the more I watch players and see, the more they seem to be in large part accurate.

Alex Ovechkin is a -30 or something. Its no coincidence that he has the lowest PDO on the team at .965 (he's been getting unlucky). Mike Green btw is at .974

I understand irrational hate clouding the judgment of fans and I truly believe this is a case of that.

The only thing that I don't like about the fancy stats is what they pretend to predict. As a means of looking back, I think they are fine.

Corsi and Fenwick pretend to speak to possession, but they really only measure shot attempt differential. Shots do not always equal possession.

PDO pretends to measure "puck luck." But a person that chooses poor shots (low shooting percentage) and allows good shots (low save percentage) will appear to be unlucky.
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
Well lets be real here.

Buffalo isn't trading youth when they are just starting to rebuild. Ehrhoff and perhaps Myers maybe on the move depending how far they want to burn that thing to the ground.

Myers is younger with more upside and will cost alot more.

Ehrhoff is a vet and fits the bill in what we need at least somewhat. I'd prefer a physical defensive rock who can play but I don't see one out there available. Ehrhoff is as close as we're going to get.

MJ does have value but he alone won't be enough.
 

CapitalsCupReality

It’s Go Time!!
Feb 27, 2002
64,720
19,583
What does he do this year that's better than what he did last year? I saw a decent October/November followed by the worst I've seen from him.

The list of struggling players this year is pretty long. He's young, clearly has the speed and skillset. He's got value and no, not only to some idiot GM. I bet most teams in the NHL would happily take him.
 

BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
The only thing that I don't like about the fancy stats is what they pretend to predict. As a means of looking back, I think they are fine.

Corsi and Fenwick pretend to speak to possession, but they really only measure shot attempt differential. Shots do not always equal possession.

PDO pretends to measure "puck luck." But a person that chooses poor shots (low shooting percentage) and allows good shots (low save percentage) will appear to be unlucky.

I had this discussion with Liberation and others last year and I've been studying it.

I have said those exact same things but the more I see it the closer to the truth it is. It serves as a proxy and barometer to understanding and measuring.

Its not perfect but it seems to hold strong weight.
 

RandyHolt

Keep truckin'
Nov 3, 2006
34,812
7,145
One thing on the fancies is that it does not show bad chemistry.

Nick and MJ defer shooting to Ovi. So they don't score because they don't take quality shots, the entire line one dimensional. Get the puck to Ovi. The shots they take, the goalie is greening with Juan in the crease and makes a crester save with ease time and time again.

Won't the fancies say they are just having horrible horrible bad luck, and that Ovi should really be +10 versus -30 because of it?

Largely based on projecting previous years numbers of theirs under a run and gun system, into the modern day in which those players seem completely unmotivated.
 
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BobRouse

Registered User
Mar 18, 2009
10,144
373
Well Backstrom has been playing with Ovie since day 1 that BB took over. This year he is about 3% below his career shooting pctg so there's that.

I agree that MJ is simply not a good fit on that line. In fact MJ is not a good fit for our team unless he can be allowed to play his natural position.

I think Penner would be a good fit with Ovie and Grabovski when he gets back. We will appease the Corsi gods then
 

Zoidberg Jesus

Trotzkyist
Oct 25, 2011
3,814
0
A package around Ehrhoff makes sense but I also coveteth JT Compher.

As a fellow Wolverine I absolutely agree, but considering he was the guy they were specifically aiming for with the Sekera trade they probably won't let him go easily. It was under a different GM though, so maybe there's hope.
 

Zoidberg Jesus

Trotzkyist
Oct 25, 2011
3,814
0
The only thing that I don't like about the fancy stats is what they pretend to predict. As a means of looking back, I think they are fine.

Corsi and Fenwick pretend to speak to possession, but they really only measure shot attempt differential. Shots do not always equal possession.

PDO pretends to measure "puck luck." But a person that chooses poor shots (low shooting percentage) and allows good shots (low save percentage) will appear to be unlucky.

I was going to do some big post on PDO a little while ago, but I got bored partway through and lost interest. I did, however, make this chart before I stopped.

JN4ED3h.jpg


I took the 2013 and 2014 PDOs of 120 players who played more than 3/4 of the games in each year and played more than 14 minutes or 16 minutes a night at even strength, for forwards and defensemen, respectively. If PDO was repeatable, you'd expect a correlation between the '13 and '14 numbers, but there clearly isn't one. No players were more than 20 points below average in both years, and only four were more than 20 points above average in both years.

Also, shots pretty much equal possession. There was a Leafs fan who went over half a season of Leafs games with a stopwatch tallying up time on attack to see if it correlated to corsi/fenwick, and he found it was a nearly perfect correlation.

One thing on the fancies is that it does not show bad chemistry.

Nick and MJ defer shooting to Ovi. So they don't score because they don't take quality shots, the entire line one dimensional. Get the puck to Ovi. The shots they take, the goalie is greening with Juan in the crease and makes a crester save with ease time and time again.

Won't the fancies say they are just having horrible horrible bad luck, and that Ovi should really be +10 versus -30 because of it?

Largely based on projecting previous years numbers of theirs under a run and gun system, into the modern day in which those players seem completely unmotivated.

My numbers are a week old, but he'd actually be a -12 (19 point increase) if he had a 1000 PDO. Backstrom would be -8 (12 point increase) and Green would be even (14 point increase). I was only looking closely at the top 10 unluckiest forwards and defensemen, so I don't have data on any other Caps.
 

Stewie G

Needed more hitting!
Oct 19, 2009
2,893
5
My favorite line from the post, after his 24 game sample and with no statistical analysis at all...

...it looks as though Fenwick and Corsi numbers mirror TOA so closely that it's no longer really worth tracking.

stock-video-34156934-documents-in-folder-and-case-closed-close-up.jpg
 

ryan519*

Guest
is this something thats even being discussed among both GMs at all?

or completely fan speculation?
 

Langway

In den Wolken
Jul 7, 2006
32,431
9,150
I think Kuznetsov coming in and producing puts a bit of heat on Johansson, who no longer is the new kid on the block. He's been here for a while now and hasn't taken that next step as a key piece. While he has improved on the PP, his even-strength play is entirely vanilla. He has battled harder in the corners but his skillset is nothing special, particularly when you have Burakovsky on the way and no apparent willingness to play Johansson at center.
 

CapInSask

Registered User
Jan 22, 2014
472
1
Moose Jaw, Sask
In the west, I could see Nashville taking a flyer on him as a Legwand replacement and offensive boost. Minnesota might also find his offensive contribution to salary ratio desirable.

Not sure how realistic this is, but if we could trade him to NSH as part of a package for Roman Josi.. I would be one happy guy, not sure how realistic that is though.
 

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