Speculation: Untradable assets

[Boomhower]

I would trade any player in the organization for Jonathan Drouin if the rumors that he is available are true.

I wouldn't worry about him. Tampa wants defense... we have none of that.

Obviously 'untouchable' is extreme. Someone could obviously throw something 'Mike Milbury crazy' at you that makes you pull the trigger on any player. But...

1) Larkin - After the year he just had, we will never get anything remotely close to his proper value right now.

2) 2018 1st rounder - Who knows where this team will be picking next year. But it could be high and with the new lottery system, anything is possible.

3) Mantha - Kid is going to be a goal scorer... already is a goal scorer.

4) 2017 1st round pick - Highest pick we've had in decades. I wouldn't be oppossed to trading back, but we better keep a top 15 pick.

5) Zetterberg - He is the flagship of the franchise going into the new arena. We really do need his recognizability to sell tickets. It would be a shame to open this arena to half empty crowds.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

There is one player in the entire league who is completely untradeable for good reasons.

Connor McDavid on an ELC. That is it. The only trades that pull him out of Edmonton are wack job NHL 17 deals that would absolutely devastate the talent on the team acquiring him.

The next tier of guys aren't quite at that level, because I have a pretty good feeling that if Edmonton came calling and offered McDavid, they'd drive their current player to the airport to land Connor. Like Hedman, Karlsson, etc. Just due to cost/production. They could easily want to keep their guy too, but McDavid on ELC is just a more valuable piece.

 

[avssuc]

The only player on this team who deserves to be considered untouchable is Henrik Zetterberg, who should retire playing his whole career for the Wings.

There are several young players I'd trade Larkin for. There are several young players I'd trade Mantha for.

This. His heart and leadership were on display last season. Not that it's ever been a question with Z, but he was the only one that didn't take a shift off last year. He's the kind of guy that you want prepping the next generation, and he's earned the right to retire in Detroit.

That said, if Z went to management and said that he wanted one last shot at a cup, I'd be all for it. If a team like Washington or Edmonton wants some playoff leadership and they are willing to pay for it, and Z likes the destination, I'm all for it. There's obvious recapture issues, but that sort of thing can be worked out with handshake agreements behind the scenes.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

This. His heart and leadership were on display last season. Not that it's ever been a question with Z, but he was the only one that didn't take a shift off last year. He's the kind of guy that you want prepping the next generation, and he's earned the right to retire in Detroit.

That said, if Z went to management and said that he wanted one last shot at a cup, I'd be all for it. If a team like Washington or Edmonton wants some playoff leadership and they are willing to pay for it, and Z likes the destination, I'm all for it. There's obvious recapture issues, but that sort of thing can be worked out with handshake agreements behind the scenes.

Why on Earth would a team like Washington or Edmonton give a crap about a handshake agreement if they're already "going to pay for it" to land Zetterberg? It would be a completely unenforceable contract addendum and they're not going to eat upwards of 12M if Z retires after 2 years... and give you a bunch of worthwhile assets.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't care if Zetterberg asks for a trade to chase a Cup. The cap ramifications are too much. He signed a 12 year deal to play with us and the NHL changed the rules to make it a salary cap impossibility to move him if he's still got any hockey left.

Before the cap, sure, do whatever you want, go wherever you want to go. Can't do that anymore.

If you were to trade Henrik Zetterberg to a Washington right now, you'd basically be signing onto a Helm contract or worse for up to 3 seasons for NO gain. I don't care how much you like Henrik Zetterberg, you can't do that.

 

[avssuc]

Why on Earth would a team like Washington or Edmonton give a crap about a handshake agreement if they're already "going to pay for it" to land Zetterberg? It would be a completely unenforceable contract addendum and they're not going to eat upwards of 12M if Z retires after 2 years... and give you a bunch of worthwhile assets.

I'm gonna be honest, I don't care if Zetterberg asks for a trade to chase a Cup. The cap ramifications are too much. He signed a 12 year deal to play with us and the NHL changed the rules to make it a salary cap impossibility to move him if he's still got any hockey left.

Before the cap, sure, do whatever you want, go wherever you want to go. Can't do that anymore.

If you were to trade Henrik Zetterberg to a Washington right now, you'd basically be signing onto a Helm contract or worse for up to 3 seasons for NO gain. I don't care how much you like Henrik Zetterberg, you can't do that.

Since it's never been done, I don't have a comp, but I assume the agreement would be on making sure he retires on LTIR. That would help the Wings because teams can only carry 10% of the set cap on LTIR through the summer. Franzen and Kronwall are more than 10% (as of now), so that might even aid the price that a team like Washington or Edmonton has to return. The Wings could might offer to retain part of the salary to drive the price back up, though I'm not sure how that would influence the LTIR.

I'm not saying it would b easy, but it could be done. The team trading for him could potentially gain large, especially if Detroit picks up the majority of the cap hit.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Since it's never been done, I don't have a comp, but I assume the agreement would be on making sure he retires on LTIR. That would help the Wings because teams can only carry 10% of the set cap on LTIR through the summer. Franzen and Kronwall are more than 10% (as of now), so that might even aid the price that a team like Washington or Edmonton has to return. The Wings could might offer to retain part of the salary to drive the price back up, though I'm not sure how that would influence the LTIR.

I'm not saying it would b easy, but it could be done. The team trading for him could potentially gain large, especially if Detroit picks up the majority of the cap hit.

Yeah, that's cap circumvention if the team would go ahead with the handshake agreement. It hasn't been done because it violates the CBA.

More likely, the team would say "**** you Detroit, we're not paying 12M so you aren't hit with a cap hit from your backdiving contract.

 

[avssuc]

Yeah, that's cap circumvention if the team would go ahead with the handshake agreement. It hasn't been done because it violates the CBA.

More likely, the team would say "**** you Detroit, we're not paying 12M so you aren't hit with a cap hit from your backdiving contract.

If I were the Caps, I'd be all about circumvention if it got the team even close to the cup. We all know Hank will probably LTIR at some point, so "circumvention" isn't something that's off the radar. I was just trying to spin a positive here and dream about some sort of return with a very hypothetical situation.

 

[Henkka]

1. 2018 1st pick
2. Mantha
3. Larkin
4. Zetterberg
5. Athanasiou
6. Hronek

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

If I were the Caps, I'd be all about circumvention if it got the team even close to the cup. We all know Hank will probably LTIR at some point, so "circumvention" isn't something that's off the radar. I was just trying to spin a positive here and dream about some sort of return with a very hypothetical situation.

It violates the CBA. They CAN'T do it. LTIR is kind of a loophole that is abused... but it's irrelevant for Washington... and for Detroit if a trade was to go down. Handshake agreements like this will get punished and punished hard.

Trading Z in this offseason would lock the Wings' recapture at 11.9M. Washington would accrue 1M in recapture, but that would go away in 2019. Once they're not on the hook for any recapture... they'd let Z retire when he's done. Again, they're not going to pay Zetterberg money so the Red Wings won't get hammered by the cap hit.

Long story short, I have as much chance of making it with Jennifer Lawrence as a Henrik Zetterberg trade has of happening at this stage of his career with the potential recapture. It's not worth "spinning a positive" about something that isn't going to happen.

 

[jkutswings]

I dunno... she's wearing red...she has wings...I think if you tell her how big a Red Wings fan you are, you might have a shot.

 

[avssuc]

It violates the CBA. They CAN'T do it. LTIR is kind of a loophole that is abused... but it's irrelevant for Washington... and for Detroit if a trade was to go down. Handshake agreements like this will get punished and punished hard.

Trading Z in this offseason would lock the Wings' recapture at 11.9M. Washington would accrue 1M in recapture, but that would go away in 2019. Once they're not on the hook for any recapture... they'd let Z retire when he's done. Again, they're not going to pay Zetterberg money so the Red Wings won't get hammered by the cap hit.

Long story short, I have as much chance of making it with Jennifer Lawrence as a Henrik Zetterberg trade has of happening at this stage of his career with the potential recapture. It's not worth "spinning a positive" about something that isn't going to happen.

Well crap. I was under the impression that a club (with the back-diving player contract) could avoid "cap advantage recapture" if the player went the LTIR route later on with his new team. I didn't know that the Wings would be locked at recapture as soon as they made the trade, and I'm still unclear there. From my 'novice' reading of the CBA, penalty is contingent on the player (with the violating contract) retiring under non-injury related conditions.

I get what you are saying in terms of overall plausibility, but in terms of the legality of the hypothetical, only the back-channel disclosure of a 'probable LTIR' is illegal. That's why I mentioned the Caps, because they might see their window as closing. A team with that outlook and desperation (being up against the cap with a bottom third farm system) may be willing to assume some risk if it gives them a large advantage.

I guess I'm just grasping at straws at this point, looking for positive outcomes that build for the future. The outlook here is pretty grim, and I'm grateful for what Hank has given to the club, so if he really wanted to chase the cup once more in his twilight, I'd like for him to get the chance. Most of us that have played the game know what it's like to suffer on bad teams, and I don't think many of us would choose to do such if we had any say. That said, none of us have Z's bank account. I guess the positive he can take away here (other than tens of millions in cheddar) is that he spent an overwhelming portion of his career where most NHLers don't.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Well crap. I was under the impression that a club (with the back-diving player contract) could avoid "cap advantage recapture" if the player went the LTIR route later on with his new team. I didn't know that the Wings would be locked at recapture as soon as they made the trade, and I'm still unclear there. From my 'novice' reading of the CBA, penalty is contingent on the player (with the violating contract) retiring under non-injury related conditions.

I get what you are saying in terms of overall plausibility, but in terms of the legality of the hypothetical, only the back-channel disclosure of a 'probable LTIR' is illegal. That's why I mentioned the Caps, because they might see their window as closing. A team with that outlook and desperation (being up against the cap with a bottom third farm system) may be willing to assume some risk if it gives them a large advantage.

I guess I'm just grasping at straws at this point, looking for positive outcomes that build for the future. The outlook here is pretty grim, and I'm grateful for what Hank has given to the club, so if he really wanted to chase the cup once more in his twilight, I'd like for him to get the chance. Most of us that have played the game know what it's like to suffer on bad teams, and I don't think many of us would choose to do such if we had any say. That said, none of us have Z's bank account. I guess the positive he can take away here (other than tens of millions in cheddar) is that he spent an overwhelming portion of his career where most NHLers don't.

I mean, they "could" stash him on LTIR, but it's also a completely unenforceable deal. Washington could agree and say "oh yeah, we'll totally do that.", use Z for two to three years and then play dumb. Wings couldnt complain as the premise was cap circumvention. And Washington isn't going to pay Z his money so the Wings can avoid the cap hit. Most of the examples that you'd be thinking of in terms of avoiding recapture would be a situation like Weber or Luongo where it is possible that the acquiring team would still have recapture to deal with as well. In Z's case, Washington would have 1M this year and that would be eaten up by the next year. So, they get pegged with 333k for 3 years if Z would retire summer 2018 or nothing if he retires later.

 

[avssuc]

I mean, they "could" stash him on LTIR, but it's also a completely unenforceable deal. Washington could agree and say "oh yeah, we'll totally do that.", use Z for two to three years and then play dumb. Wings couldnt complain as the premise was cap circumvention. And Washington isn't going to pay Z his money so the Wings can avoid the cap hit. Most of the examples that you'd be thinking of in terms of avoiding recapture would be a situation like Weber or Luongo where it is possible that the acquiring team would still have recapture to deal with as well. In Z's case, Washington would have 1M this year and that would be eaten up by the next year. So, they get pegged with 333k for 3 years if Z would retire summer 2018 or nothing if he retires later.

Yea, that's what I was banking on, only with Washington agreeing to LTIR him, assuming his back injury is something that could be used as a valid out when the time comes. The Caps have zero on their LTIR, while the Wings will be over the summer max if Kronwall joins Franzen. The Wings can expect to have Kronwall and Franzen on the LTIR until 2019 and 2020 respectively. With Ericsson under contract until 2020, and the Weiss buyout lingering until 2021 (not even touching on the Abdelkader and DeKeyser disasters) the Wings are in the market to explore all hypothetical situations that provide relief.

I know that most of the bridge deals will last until much of that is cleared, but the trend that winning teams have been adopting has them forgoing bridge deals for long term savings. The Wings probably won't be able to do that with the expiring ELC's this summer, but if they want to build a better future, they need that flexibility soon.

 

[Retire91]

1. Mantha: Big guy, can score goals. We need goals.
2. Larkin: Our only potential prospect who has #1C potential. Can't lose him.
3. Hronek: OUR D SUCKS!
4. Mrazek: I still have hopes for Mrazek. Can't lose him.
5. Svechnikov: Also big guy, plays gritty game, Can score goals.
6. Athanasiou: Speed, speed, speed. Can score goals.

I had to name 6 players.

I would add to that our 2017-2021 first and second round draft picks.

I don't like the words untouchable because the right trade can put an organization on course. Like the Lindrose trade created a Colorado dynasty. Or a really even position swap like Johansen/Jones. However given that Holland hasn't made a good trade since like 2008 I am ye of little faith.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

No human resource on the team should be untouchable. That doesn't mean you trade em away for any old offer, but it means that with the right offer you'd be willing to talk.

I mean if someone out there thinks Larkin is a franchise building block, of course, we should talk. It's not likely at the moment so it's probably a moot point, but never say never.

 

[FlashyG]

I mean, they "could" stash him on LTIR, but it's also a completely unenforceable deal. Washington could agree and say "oh yeah, we'll totally do that.", use Z for two to three years and then play dumb. Wings couldnt complain as the premise was cap circumvention. And Washington isn't going to pay Z his money so the Wings can avoid the cap hit. Most of the examples that you'd be thinking of in terms of avoiding recapture would be a situation like Weber or Luongo where it is possible that the acquiring team would still have recapture to deal with as well. In Z's case, Washington would have 1M this year and that would be eaten up by the next year. So, they get pegged with 333k for 3 years if Z would retire summer 2018 or nothing if he retires later.

The only way that hypothetical would ever come about would be if Z asked for a trade and the only way the Wings would agree is with an assurance from Zetteberg that no matter what happens in Washington (or wherever else he landed) he does not retire until his contract ends.

Washington may not want to pay him while helping the Wings out of the recapture penalty, but if Zetterberg doesn't want to retire what other choice would they have?

From Z's perspective why would he retire early when doing so hurts the franchise that will eventually retire his number and also costs him millions of dollars?

The recapture penalty isn't something we should waste even a second thinking on, it affects only a handful of players and none of them will retire with years left on their deal.

 

[odin1981]

1) 2018 1st (should be top 6).

2) Z (earned the right to retire a wing if he wants it)

3)2019 1st

4) 2020 1st

5) Mrazek (hopefully in a couple years he has at least half a defense).


I'd be up for moving our draft pick this year for a early 20's top 4 d + larkin. I don't have much faith in Larkin panning out as a center and he would generate interest. Though given his sophomore slump he might not be movable for a year.

I am praying Helm gets picked up by vegas. Of all our bad contracts he is the most likely to be taken off our hands.