Turnover watch

[Boreal01]

Kessel currently leads the Leafs with 73 turnovers.

 

[Drew311]

Just a question to the OP...did you consider the cross ice pass Kessel made that got picked off and turned into the Rangers 2nd short handed goal a turnover? It doesn't seem like a turnover based on your criteria, but it seemed like a pretty blatant one to me.

 

[Duke Silver]

Ok can you please either not come and post here or imput something construtive.

Do you see anything on this board concerning, home vs. away stats or anything of that nature?

This is about the legitimacy of stats AS A WHOLE.

Take off bud, you obviously don't understand the premise as a whole.

Look at the OP and contribute constructively for **** off.

I did post something constructive. I gave you 9 years worth of stats which showed a clear trend that our home giveaway stats are impossibly lop-sided. It's telling you made no reference to it. In fact, you've brushed it off as nothing and took it at face value.

Please share with me the answer to this question: How can this be about the legitimacy of the stat AS A WHOLE when HALF of the statistic is clearly flawed?

I'm not the person who isn't understanding things here.

 

[Damisoph]

Hate the giveaway stats, it's even making Leaf fans turn on each other.

:shakefist:

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Just a question to the OP...did you consider the cross ice pass Kessel made that got picked off and turned into the Rangers 2nd short handed goal a turnover? It doesn't seem like a turnover based on your criteria, but it seemed like a pretty blatant one to me.

Both I and the league deemed that a turnover.

Based on a couple of factors.

1. The zone of play. When Kessel made that pass, he had players covering him from a distance.

2. Timing. He had several non instantaneous options to distribute the puck as well as carry the puck out from the boards and make a play on net. He chose a cross-ice pass.

That play is pertinent to the factors I have laid out.

Quite clearly in fact.

 

[Pyrophorus]

The problem is that one guy counts way more giveaways than the other 29 guys averaged out. By a magnitude of approximately 2.5 times.

Giveaways or Hits would be a fine stat to use IF THE SAME STANDARD WAS APPLIED ACROSS ALL ARENAS. It's not, and that's why people have a tough time giving them much credence.

The OP is the only person that I have encountered on these boards who can't seem to grasp this.

The stats guy at the ACC seems bonkers.
Gives the Leafs leads in everything but shots.

 

[diceman934]

Both I and the league deemed that a turnover.

Based on a couple of factors.

1. The zone of play. When Kessel made that pass, he had players covering him from a distance.

2. Timing. He had several non instantaneous options to distribute the puck as well as carry the puck out from the boards and make a play on net. He chose a cross-ice pass.

That play is pertinent to the factors I have laid out.

Quite clearly in fact.

Clearly a give away....and clearly defined....no pressure to make that pass.

I argued this stat with many on this board last year....The fact is that in most cases the home team in every game will lead the game in give aways ....the people collecting the data are concentrating on the home team. Same as shots on goal....they are determined by the home team and are subjective as well.

The way the data is collected does not make the stat invalid.....our team gives the puck away like it is Christmas time.

 

[diceman934]

The stats guy at the ACC seems bonkers.
Gives the Leafs leads in everything but shots.

Not so......block shots, Hits , Take aways.....

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Turnovers for the Flyers game.

Mine:

JvR 1
Kessel 3
Franson 1
Phaneuf 1
Raymond 2
Lupul 1
Bodie 1
Bozak 2

NHL Stats:
JvR 0
Kessel 3
Franson 1
Phaneuf 0
Raymond 2
Lupul 1
Bodie 1
Bozak 2

JvR and Phaneuf both not credited for giveaways by NHL. Other than that, there is no disparity in the game.

Phaneuf's was a clear giveaway, he was under no duress at the time and made a blind pass around the boards to nobody.

JvR made an ill advised pass which led to a scoring chance.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Turnovers for the Ducks game.

Mine:
Phaneuf 1
Franson 1
Raymond 2
Lupul 2
JvR 2
Kulemin 1
Bodie 1
Bozak 1
Kessel 1

NHL:
Phaneuf 1
Franson 1
Raymond 2
Lupul 2
JvR 1
Kulemin 1
Bodie 0
Bozak 1
Kessel 1

Most notable omission was Bodie with a dead giveaway in the defensive zone which led to a scoring chance.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Turnovers for the Sharks game

Mine:

Phaneuf 2
Raymond 2
Ranger 2
Lupul 3
Holland 1
Kulemin 0
Rielly 2
Gardiner 1
Clarkson 1
Kessel 0
Orr 1

NHL:

Phaneuf 2
Raymond 1
Ranger 2
Lupul 1
Holland 1
Kulemin 1
Rielly 2
Gardiner 0
Clarkson 1
Kessel 1
Orr 1

Discrepencies that arose from my criteria.

Lupul had a dreadful game. Forcing the play, bad passes, not a good game in general. Clear giveaway in his own end trying to make a breakout that was intercepted while the rest of his line is near the red line.

Gardiner not counted on a giveaway in his own end.

 

[diceman934]

Turnovers for the Sharks game

Mine:

Phaneuf 2
Raymond 2
Ranger 2
Lupul 3
Holland 1
Kulemin 0
Rielly 2
Gardiner 1
Clarkson 1
Kessel 0
Orr 1

NHL:

Phaneuf 2
Raymond 1
Ranger 2
Lupul 1
Holland 1
Kulemin 1
Rielly 2
Gardiner 0
Clarkson 1
Kessel 1
Orr 1

Discrepencies that arose from my criteria.

Lupul had a dreadful game. Forcing the play, bad passes, not a good game in general. Clear giveaway in his own end trying to make a breakout that was intercepted while the rest of his line is near the red line.

Gardiner not counted on a giveaway in his own end.

I had the exact same as you did.....Did you look at the NHL Shark's stats....they had them leading in giveaways. Like I said previously the home team usually leads in these stats all the time...

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

I had the exact same as you did.....Did you look at the NHL Shark's stats....they had them leading in giveaways. Like I said previously the home team usually leads in these stats all the time...

Too early to tell from my own analysis, it's been interesting so far though.

 

[mikebel111*]

So these stats are proving that kadri is not a turnover machine as many said he is?

Great work guys so far! Keep it up!

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

So these stats are proving that kadri is not a turnover machine as many said he is?

Great work guys so far! Keep it up!

I haven't really noticed Kadri in any capacity since starting this thread tbh.

Both a good and bad thing for a 2nd line centre really.

 

[Golden_Jet]

I know someone who does this, different person for each team at each game. So one person does the TO stats that night and a second person does the visiting stats that night. Each person must track a lot of stats besides TK, ie GV, shots, hits, off the top of my head.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

I know someone who does this, different person for each team at each game. So one person does the TO stats that night and a second person does the visiting stats that night. Each person must track a lot of stats besides TK, ie GV, shots, hits, off the top of my head.

Nice.

It's been really interesting to do so far. But very depressing at times.

Ducks game was, in my opinion, the Leafs best overall game this year. They played near perfect as a team.

 

[MakeTheIronSing]

Turnovers from the Kings Game:

My stats:

Kessel 2
Gardiner 1
Rielly 1
Kadri 1
Bozak 2
JvR 2
Raymond 2
Orr 1
Gunnarsson 2
McClement 1
Gleason 0
Phaneuf 1
Clarkson 1

NHL Stats:
Kessel 1
Gardiner 1
Rielly 0
Kadri 2
Bozak 2
JvR 2
Raymond 1
Orr 1
Gunnarsson 2
McClement 1
Gleason 1
Phaneuf 0
Clarkson 1

Noteable non calls, Phaneuf make an unneded pass in his own end which went to nobody of intent, turned over

Raymond in the offensive zone, non call by NHL

 

[crump]

Another source ...

http://www.sportingcharts.com/nhl/stats/player-giveaways-statistic/2013/

All of our D are up there.