OT: TSN Reorientation

[vadim sharifijanov]

For me, if someone casually says they hate gay people, or that they're uncomfortable around them or whatever, that's a whole other thing than saying "well that was pretty gay" after a movie or something. Its like, when you say a movie is gay, that makes no sense in terms of a slur. What does "that movie is gay" even mean? It's nonsense. If anything, it's just poor use of language rather than homophobic. Like I said though, that's just me, and there are some situations where I accept that I'm the minority in that way of thinking.

Societally viewing a group of people so negatively that they "innocently" are used as a synonym for the word "bad" is "just poor use of language rather than homophobic?"

yep. and again, i don't want to language police here, but structurally calling a movie or someone's shirt "gay" as a casual insult implies a comparison between the unacceptability of that movie or that shirt, and the historical unacceptability of homosexuals in mainstream society. and psychologically, growing up with that trope, and hearing it repeated, and indeed repeating it oneself, conditions one to think less of the minority, at least one some level, whether overtly or on some deeper, maybe inexpressible level. and the more casually and unaggressive the use of this kind of language is, the more naturalized it is; and therefore the deeper the feelings of inadequacy it can produce, because then you can't just say, "that guy saying homophobic stuff is a bigot; don't listen to him," because the implication of homosexuality = unacceptable has been mainstreamed into ordinary language use and the target of that homophobia becomes diffused instead of exceptional.

an example regarding intentionality: i think i learned this lesson in a different context when i was in my early teens, my brother and i used to call each other fat as an insult. we were both skinny, but that was the joke right? so one day, our cousin, who was maybe four or five years old, says "you guys don't like me; i'm fat." you know, because he'd heard us saying that all his life. saying that word didn't mean anything to us, and we never would have thought our cousin would take it personally because he was just a little chubby like all little kids are, but that realization of what we were saying and what those words were doing killed me.

all that said, i certainly also appreciate that minority groups "taking back" slurs is a valuable thing. but at the same time, as someone who teaches young people mostly in the 18-22 age group for a living, you can't imagine how often i hear kids saying "i have a gay friend and he doesn't care if i say [xyz], so it's okay for me to say [xyz]," or "i have a [racial minority] friend who makes jokes about [racial minority], therefore..." and then i cringe.

 

[Intangibos]

In the other thread you said this:



Societally viewing a group of people so negatively that they "innocently" are used as a synonym for the word "bad" is "just poor use of language rather than homophobic?"

Which is why I don't use what I believe to be acceptable speech in front of people who don't agree with that. Just like I don't want people, if they happen to overhear my conversations, to chime in with how apparently homophobic I am.

If I say a movie is stupid, would that be bad because it's using people who are born less gifted in terms of IQ as a negative term? Words can mean different things in different situations.

Lets take this situation:
You're watching MMA, and they're on the ground, sometimes it looks a little funny. If someone says "wow MMA is kind of gay" or "well, that looks kind of gay", is that offensive? Would it be offensive if they said it looks sort of like gay sex? What if they said it looks like that's how they imagine gay sex may look like but they're straight so they have no personal experience in that type of situation?

Where is the line for what is okay and what isn't? Calling people Pejorative Slured now is bad, but what about calling people stupid? What about taking note of someone's weight? I'm not thin, but I don't get upset if people aren't interested in me because I'm out of shape. If I have a problem with that, I should take initiative to get in shape. People like to blame others for the way they're seen instead of themselves, and when you have that type of mentality, you can find almost anything offensive. I will get upset if someone gets in my face and calls me a fatty, but that's a different situation with malicious intent.

 

[Intangibos]

The way I look at it is how siblings make fun of each other, but they still have their back. My buddies can make slurs jokingly, but if someone else does, they're going to have a problem with them. The biggest issue is people not knowing that you're making these slurs jokingly, or not letting you know that they're offended. Say you're in a locker room, why can't the team let everyone know that no matter what's said in the locker room, they're family and whether they're gay or whatever they're cool with it. As for beer league, it's not about what people say, but actual reactions. Given my situation and what process I'm currently going through, the locker room would be pretty awkward for people and I can't expect them not to feel awkward.

I also think there is a limit, if that makes sense. If you occasionally say something like that, well whatever. However, if you're in a locker room and people constantly saying this is gay, that is gay, this guy's a f**, etc, it does get tiresome and you may question if they're really joking or actually do feel that way.