OT: TSN Reorientation

Alan Jackson

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Nov 3, 2005
5,197
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Langley, BC
http://www.tsn.ca/videohub/?collection=72&show=274129

Saw the ad for this on TV yesterday, and was sent the video. Part 1 of 3.

What do you all think of gay athletes in professional sports? I certainly don't think they should be ostracized, but I can understand some people just being uncomfortable. (I don't think they should be, I don't think they're going to get attacked by gay men, but it's just the way people think). I can also understand locker room talk, using slurs without actually meaning what you're saying, since I have quite the potty mouth including slurs. You try to watch who you say things around, but for gay slurs, you may be saying them around someone who is closeted.

Thoughts, anyone?

If you replace the word "gay" with the word "black", you get an idea of how absurd this sounds.

If people are uncomfortable with a gay teammate, that's just too bad, and they need to learn to deal with it.
 

Johnny LaRue

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Jul 21, 2005
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Abbotsford
I think it's against the rules on HFBoards to make assumptions about how people would act or vote or whatever when it comes to politics or serious things like that. I'm not sure if it applies to this, since reading the rules is for plebs, but I'm pretty sure everyone should be careful not to get an infraction making fun of Tea Party Thomas.

It's not my fault, I spend 90% of my time on the politics board where anything goes! I just lurk here desperately trying to learn about hockey while living overseas.

Fun fact, most of your seem to be really disappointed with play of the Canucks lately. Apparently we have some issues. There is a lot of disagreement as to why the Canucks are playing poorly though.
 

RobertKron

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Sep 1, 2007
15,410
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f

What do you all think of gay athletes in professional sports? I certainly don't think they should be ostracized, but I can understand some people just being uncomfortable. (I don't think they should be, I don't think they're going to get attacked by gay men, but it's just the way people think). I can also understand locker room talk, using slurs without actually meaning what you're saying, since I have quite the potty mouth including slurs. You try to watch who you say things around, but for gay slurs, you may be saying them around someone who is closeted.

Thoughts, anyone?

If you use homophobic slurs in general conversation, just not around people you know to be gay, then you're still an ******* - you're just one that wants to pretend not to be.

If you "meant it" or not only matters after the fact, and doesn't change a ****ing thing in the moment as to how hurtful it is to the person in question.

This is basically the issue: the prevalence of casual homophobia (and racism and misogyny) in our culture as practiced by people that rationalize it by saying "oh, well I wouldn't say that to their faces, so it's okay" as though that actually makes what they're saying any less ******.
 

Reverend Mayhem

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Feb 15, 2009
28,089
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I think it's against the rules on HFBoards to make assumptions about how people would act or vote or whatever when it comes to politics or serious things like that. I'm not sure if it applies to this, since reading the rules is for plebs, but I'm pretty sure everyone should be careful not to get an infraction making fun of Tea Party Thomas.

I actually have no qualms with Thomas. He just stands up for what believes in and that's OK by me. I draw the line when people try and force people to make a choice or discriminate against people who do not at all harm others.

And it's not just homosexuals or what have you, you can't define a person solely by race, skin colour, or sexual orientation. That's just stupid and quite simple-minded, IMO. There is so much more to any one person than just a single characteristic or appearance.

Personally, I don't see anything wrong if anyone wants to understand morality through 2,000 year old literature. I don't have a problem with that, there are very good and very bad people from every walk of life (I think groups like Westboro and al Qaeda give Christianity and Islam a bad name) but they have to realize that things change and things get outdated. The only thing that makes society prevail is love, caring, and understanding. We have the choice to judge people for something we cannot fathom. That's unfair.

Rev
 

Intangibos

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Apr 5, 2010
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If you use homophobic slurs in general conversation, just not around people you know to be gay, then you're still an ******* - you're just one that wants to pretend not to be.

If you "meant it" or not only matters after the fact, and doesn't change a ****ing thing in the moment as to how hurtful it is to the person in question.

This is basically the issue: the prevalence of casual homophobia (and racism and misogyny) in our culture as practiced by people that rationalize it by saying "oh, well I wouldn't say that to their faces, so it's okay" as though that actually makes what they're saying any less ******.

:laugh: So what you're saying is, I can't say to my buddy "hey ***", and he can't say the same to me. We're now evil homophobes even though nobody who has a problem with it, or is in the closet heard it.

I wish I wasn't such an ******* I guess :laugh:
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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meanwhile--

When Kovalchuk sided with the Russian Orthodox Church in the controversy over Russia’s much-publicized anti-gay laws it may have endeared him further to some of his comrades, but it also pushed him that much further under the microscope. (“I am Orthodox. I think that says it all,” Datsyuk said, while Ovechkin has mostly avoided comment. “I just support everybody and everybody have own mind,” he told NPR.)

http://grantland.com/features/no-place-like-home/
 

Uhmkay

Tryamkin = New Chara
Dec 11, 2006
3,465
458
Vancouver
People in general need to get over their homophobia. I have relatives that say some pretty stupid ****, and I've even heard it from friends.

I'd be considered a 'decent' looking guy, but have absolutely no problem with gay men. I have friends who are gay, they know I'm straight and tell me all the time they accept me even though I'm a breeder... lol.

I wish every male that was better looking then me was gay so I'd be the best looking straight guy on the planet. I give a little fist pump every time I see a gay guy that is better looking than I am.

There are far more important things in life to worry about then what two consenting adults are doing in their bedrooms...


.... like the Canucks winning the cup.
 

Verviticus

Registered User
Jul 23, 2010
12,664
592
I think it's against the rules on HFBoards to make assumptions about how people would act or vote or whatever when it comes to politics or serious things like that. I'm not sure if it applies to this, since reading the rules is for plebs, but I'm pretty sure everyone should be careful not to get an infraction making fun of Tea Party Thomas.

ahh the dude makes it eay. as long as its not defamatory im pretty sure its ok

i say this as a guy who has been ifnracted maybe sometimes. possibly

Added part 2 to the OP.
Also, here is a thread on the main board
http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=1584351

there's some really dumb ****posting going on in that thread holy cow
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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:laugh: So what you're saying is, I can't say to my buddy "hey ***", and he can't say the same to me. We're now evil homophobes even though nobody who has a problem with it, or is in the closet heard it.

I wish I wasn't such an ******* I guess :laugh:

i should know better than to get into this but i am really curious, why do you say it then? does it make you feel good to say it?

i don't think you're unaware that it's an ugly hateful word that carries a long history of subjugation and violence.

i ask, partially, because when i was growing up there were these five kids who liked to say the n word in the corners of school when no one was around. not in a racist way, just in a you can't say it and so then you want to say it sort of way. i didn't understand it, but i sort of always imagined the fascination was like benji compson staring at the fire or something.
 

Intangibos

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Apr 5, 2010
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People in general need to get over their homophobia. I have relatives that say some pretty stupid ****, and I've even heard it from friends.

I'd be considered a 'decent' looking guy, but have absolutely no problem with gay men. I have friends who are gay, they know I'm straight and tell me all the time they accept me even though I'm a breeder... lol.

I wish every male that was better looking then me was gay so I'd be the best looking straight guy on the planet. I give a little fist pump every time I see a gay guy that is better looking than I am.

There are far more important things in life to worry about then what two consenting adults are doing in their bedrooms...


.... like the Canucks winning the cup.

Why is calling heterosexual people breeders okay?

i should know better than to get into this but i am really curious, why do you say it then? does it make you feel good to say it?

i don't think you're unaware that it's an ugly hateful word that carries a long history of subjugation and violence.

i ask, partially, because when i was growing up there were these five kids who liked to say the n word in the corners of school when no one was around. not in a racist way, just in a you can't say it and so then you want to say it sort of way. i didn't understand it, but i sort of always imagined the fascination was like benji compson staring at the fire or something.

It doesn't make me feel good to say it, it's just I don't think what words I use matter when I'm in a private conversation with other people who feel the same. Sure, sometimes people might overhear the conversation, but it's rare and they shouldn't be listening in anyway. It's not like we talk loudly. We value not having filters in what we say to each other, we have plenty of conversations that we might not have otherwise because nothing is taboo, even if we disagree.

The other part of it is habit. I've played tons of online games throughout my life, and when you're in voice chat with people, often people you've known for years and grew up playing games with them, you constantly rib each other. I would assume it's a similar atmosphere in locker rooms too. As a result, we call each other fatty, gay slurs, even racial slurs sometimes. Not racial slurs like the n-word, but making fun of heritage. I get made fun of for being Canadian, I make fun of people for being Swedish or Mexican or British or whatever. Lets not forget about making fun of Brazilians. We had a player on our 'team' who was openly gay and he would always call people gay slurs as well, although he was the one person who was mostly immune to them because they could be taken too seriously. Although we still used them around him, and sometimes if he didn't do what we wanted someone would say "wow what a ***" but that was insanely standard and he did the same.

While these people were only people I spoke with online, my actual friends who I went to school with and played sports with also played these games with me and behaved the same way. It's just the atmosphere we grew up in and we have no reason to change. Certainly nobody is being kept in the closet because we all know we're pretty accepting, never had a problem with that guy in our team, and when I told them about my situation everyone was cool with it. That being said, sometimes we'll have someone new hanging out with us and they might seem uncomfortable. Either we explain the situation to them, or just stop using words like that, although we prefer the former.

What is also important to point out is that this language is used by us in a setting where everyone is cool with it, except for maybe people who overhear us. It's also certainly not a case of someone in the group being afraid to come out because of it, because nobody in the group would be afraid to come out for how we accept them, given our history. I would never use this language at work, on a bus, in a job interview or other places like that. Although I disagree with profanity in general, because some words being offensive like the f-word for example is insane, slurs are a whole different thing. I wish we could all move past finding them offensive in casual use, but that's just not realistic right now. I do absolutely hate, though, how more and more words are found offensive over time. This whole politically correct atmosphere in everything is disgusting. I don't care if someone calls me a gay slur or whatever jokingly, but if someone got in my face calling me those things, then we'd have a problem. That's the way I look at it, and I wish more people looked at it that way, but I accept that they don't.
 

Verviticus

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Jul 23, 2010
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Why is calling heterosexual people breeders okay?

being a heterosexual puts us pretty squarely in the majority and the 'norm' (ie: assumed and undistinguished) and we don't have to worry about whether or not the statement was a derogatory comment designed to intimidate/otherize, or a joke

edit: if it offends you and you ask someone who used it to not use it and they refuse, then they're squarely in the wrong
 

Intangibos

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being a heterosexual puts us pretty squarely in the majority and the 'norm' (ie: assumed and undistinguished) and we don't have to worry about whether or not the statement was a derogatory comment designed to intimidate/otherize, or a joke

edit: if it offends you and you ask someone who used it to not use it and they refuse, then they're squarely in the wrong

So it's okay to use terms that are meant to be derogatory in some way as long as that term is directed at people in the majority? So if you're in China, for example, you can use racial slurs against Chinese people? I don't personally find breeder offensive, but I find it interesting that people can find all these things offensive, but then make an exception for that. People can ask me not to say "that movie was pretty gay", and if I don't I'm a huge *******. Is that the same thing?
 

Verviticus

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So it's okay to use terms that are meant to be derogatory in some way as long as that term is directed at people in the majority?

he called himself a breeder. you think hes being derogatory?

So if you're in China, for example, you can use racial slurs against Chinese people?

i don't know enough about chinese language and culture to make a determination as to whether or not an analogous situation exists.

I don't personally find breeder offensive, but I find it interesting that people can find all these things offensive, but then make an exception for that. People can ask me not to say "that movie was pretty gay", and if I don't I'm a huge *******. Is that the same thing?

it's not an exception, and people can say "hey don't use breeder please" and if you continue to use that language around them then yeah you're being an *******. a reason breeder isn't inherently considered derogatory in the same way is because it hasn't been used as a word to discriminate against a group of people (which just happen to be minorities pretty much all the time). language has cultural meaning as well as literal meaning
 

Verviticus

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Jul 23, 2010
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you seem to be obsessed with what you can and can't do. you can do anything. some things will have people judge you, and some things won't. there are some things that you can do that will make people appreciate your efforts and make a positive impact on your relationships with people, and some things that will do the opposite. i can almost guarantee you that in your entire life of sports relationships there is (assuming its not just like the same four people for your entire life) someone who would have appreciated more discretion than what you've described
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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Why is calling heterosexual people breeders okay?



It doesn't make me feel good to say it, it's just I don't think what words I use matter when I'm in a private conversation with other people who feel the same. Sure, sometimes people might overhear the conversation, but it's rare and they shouldn't be listening in anyway. It's not like we talk loudly. We value not having filters in what we say to each other, we have plenty of conversations that we might not have otherwise because nothing is taboo, even if we disagree.

The other part of it is habit. I've played tons of online games throughout my life, and when you're in voice chat with people, often people you've known for years and grew up playing games with them, you constantly rib each other. I would assume it's a similar atmosphere in locker rooms too. As a result, we call each other fatty, gay slurs, even racial slurs sometimes. Not racial slurs like the n-word, but making fun of heritage. I get made fun of for being Canadian, I make fun of people for being Swedish or Mexican or British or whatever. Lets not forget about making fun of Brazilians. We had a player on our 'team' who was openly gay and he would always call people gay slurs as well, although he was the one person who was mostly immune to them because they could be taken too seriously. Although we still used them around him, and sometimes if he didn't do what we wanted someone would say "wow what a ***" but that was insanely standard and he did the same.

While these people were only people I spoke with online, my actual friends who I went to school with and played sports with also played these games with me and behaved the same way. It's just the atmosphere we grew up in and we have no reason to change. Certainly nobody is being kept in the closet because we all know we're pretty accepting, never had a problem with that guy in our team, and when I told them about my situation everyone was cool with it. That being said, sometimes we'll have someone new hanging out with us and they might seem uncomfortable. Either we explain the situation to them, or just stop using words like that, although we prefer the former.

What is also important to point out is that this language is used by us in a setting where everyone is cool with it, except for maybe people who overhear us. It's also certainly not a case of someone in the group being afraid to come out because of it, because nobody in the group would be afraid to come out for how we accept them, given our history. I would never use this language at work, on a bus, in a job interview or other places like that. Although I disagree with profanity in general, because some words being offensive like the f-word for example is insane, slurs are a whole different thing. I wish we could all move past finding them offensive in casual use, but that's just not realistic right now. I do absolutely hate, though, how more and more words are found offensive over time. This whole politically correct atmosphere in everything is disgusting. I don't care if someone calls me a gay slur or whatever jokingly, but if someone got in my face calling me those things, then we'd have a problem. That's the way I look at it, and I wish more people looked at it that way, but I accept that they don't.

i'm not in the business of telling you what you can or can't say. but as verticus notes, you seem to be a lot more concerned with your freedom to say potentially hurtful things than with historically marginalized people who may potentially be hurt by things that are said.

if you feel that it's some kind of civil right to say hurtful slurs in private and when there's little chance of it being overheard, then go nuts i guess. what you do in your bedroom is your own business, and the business of whatever consenting adults you do it with.

but i would suggest, as i think others in this thread are suggesting, that maybe you might think more about the people you are comparing your friends to when you call them the slurs that you call them, and less about your inalienable right to say whatever it is you want to say. the kind of casual use of slurs that you advocate -- and which you seem to wish you could do more openly without anyone getting offended -- think about how those words sound to someone who has been called that his or her entire life, and usually in an explicitly derogatory and intentionally hurtful way. the situation is a lot more complicated than, to use an example, "i don't mind if you make fun of me for being a white heterosexual cis-male, so i don't think you should mind if i make fun of you for being an african-american transgendered person"; that's not putting yourself in someone else's shoes, that's forcing others to be put into your shoes. i say this not to comment on you or any specific person that you interact with, because i don't know your online friends and i guess i'll have to trust your judgment when you report that no one is offended by those slurs that you say, but i say this in the more general sense of imagining how civil society might operate in a kinder, more thoughtful world.

i don't think political correctness is the right word for what you seem to find "disgusting"; maybe we can just call it being a thoughtful and compassionate human being?
 

Intangibos

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he called himself a breeder. you think hes being derogatory?



i don't know enough about chinese language and culture to make a determination as to whether or not an analogous situation exists.



it's not an exception, and people can say "hey don't use breeder please" and if you continue to use that language around them then yeah you're being an *******. a reason breeder isn't inherently considered derogatory in the same way is because it hasn't been used as a word to discriminate against a group of people (which just happen to be minorities pretty much all the time). language has cultural meaning as well as literal meaning

Breeder actually is a derogatory term towards heterosexuals, it's just nobody cares because heterosexuals are the largest group. What if the world was 50/50, would breeder be acceptable then? Maybe someone's whole group of friends are gay and they don't feel comfortable in saying they're straight (in this insane imaginary 50/50 scenario). You shouldn't just assume some words are acceptable because they're derogatory to the majority. I don't say gay slurs to strangers because they may be offended, in fact, I don't use slurs in general to strangers because they may be offended. That's why they're slurs. What you're basically saying is that slurs are only hurtful if they're used on the minority. People don't like being discriminated against or excluded. If a straight male went to hang out with a few gay friends and they wouldn't let him hang out with them anymore and called him a breeder, it would be kind of hurtful. While slurs against homosexuals are more prominent, and more likely to offend people when they are used, if your stance is that you shouldn't offend people like that, you shouldn't use any slurs at all.

i'm not in the business of telling you what you can or can't say. but as verticus notes, you seem to be a lot more concerned with your freedom to say potentially hurtful things than with historically marginalized people who may potentially be hurt by things that are said.

if you feel that it's some kind of civil right to say hurtful slurs in private and when there's little chance of it being overheard, then go nuts i guess. what you do in your bedroom is your own business, and the business of whatever consenting adults you do it with.

but i would suggest, as i think others in this thread are suggesting, that maybe you might think more about the people you are comparing your friends to when you call them the slurs that you call them, and less about your inalienable right to say whatever it is you want to say. the kind of casual use of slurs that you advocate -- and which you seem to wish you could do more openly without anyone getting offended -- think about how those words sound to someone who has been called that his or her entire life, and usually in an explicitly derogatory and intentionally hurtful way. the situation is a lot more complicated than, to use an example, "i don't mind if you make fun of me for being a white heterosexual cis-male, so i don't think you should mind if i make fun of you for being an african-american transgendered person"; that's not putting yourself in someone else's shoes, that's forcing others to be put into your shoes. i say this not to comment on you or any specific person that you interact with, because i don't know your online friends and i guess i'll have to trust your judgment when you report that no one is offended by those slurs that you say, but i say this in the more general sense of imagining how civil society might operate in a kinder, more thoughtful world.

i don't think political correctness is the right word for what you seem to find "disgusting"; maybe we can just call it being a thoughtful and compassionate human being?

I do care about the people who would be hurt by things I say, that's why I don't say these things around those people.

I know perfectly well how the words might affect people, and I know for a fact that my friends aren't offended by it. You can trust when I say that no one of my friends is offended by it, or feel scared to come out if one of them were gay. Partly because they all use the slurs as well, and partly because I myself am trans. That's why I've been so active in this thread, it's an important subject to me. I can't play beer league hockey because I'm not sure how people would react to me. It would be pretty silly for my friends to be afraid to come out when I'm out to them in the first place, and everyone is cool with it. It's not about being a more thoughtful and compassionate human being. When I go to my support groups, I sure as hell don't use the same language there as I do with my primary group of friends. You know what my biggest fear was coming out to my friends with the whole trans thing? It wasn't that they wouldn't accept me, it was that things would change. We always spoke this way, and I can't stand when people walk on eggshells to try to accommodate me.

I can certainly understand other people's point of view, I just don't agree with them. I've been called slurs before playfully and seriously and I had very different reactions to each. Sometimes a friend will ask "how is the tranny thing going". That word is considered offensive, but not to me. In fact, I almost prefer it because it's more loose and casual than other terms. I understand that people feel just as hurt by both playful/casual and serious remarks, but in private with my own friends who don't, I want to act like myself and talk like myself, and I specifically choose friends who I can feel comfortable with.
 
Last edited:

RobertKron

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Sep 1, 2007
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Yes, let us all remember that the real victims in all of this are those poor folks that just want to harmlessly drop derogatory language and are so unfairly having their rights trampled because they risk the horrible persecution of people telling them that their choice of language is ******.
 

Verviticus

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i mean im a straight guy so if i use the word breeder, or someone else i know uses the word breeder around me, im comfortable making the determination that it's not in derogatory use. because of my position, i don't give it any thought at all. i guess ive never heard the word used in any context other than crazy redneck breeders or animal breeders

the majority thing is not actually The Only Reason. the more exact reason is that almost always in history (a few exceptions exist) the majority group also controls the language - sometimes going so far as to kill groups of people to enforce this. with this control comes the control of hate speech, and thus minorities are generally the victims. if we lived in a world where there was some ultra-powerful minority that developed a code of hateful language used to oppress the majority, then it wouldn't be a majority-minority thing, it would be a power thing (which is a better way to understand the concept to begin with). straight people have considerably more power than gay people in our society, so gay is a thing you shouldn't say and breeder is more context sensitive

again, other than the friends you talk to, nobody can judge what you say to friends in private. go nuts man, person.
 

Verviticus

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Jul 23, 2010
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I can certainly understand other people's point of view, I just don't agree with them. I've been called slurs before playfully and seriously and I had very different reactions to each. Sometimes a friend will ask "how is the tranny thing going". That word is considered offensive, but not to me. In fact, I almost prefer it because it's more loose and casual than other terms. I understand that people feel just as hurt by both playful/casual and serious remarks, but in private with my own friends who don't, I want to act like myself and talk like myself, and I specifically choose friends who I can feel comfortable with.

note: you're the trans person in the group and if you openly address the issue and tell everyone around you that the language makes you personally feel more comfortable, then you are now in control of the issue. the people who could (they wouldn't be because they are your friends) have the power and oppress you can't do this with that language anymore because of how you addressed the issue. the vast majority of [minority] aren't able to do that because often they aren't even public about the issue, in fear of one of many possible negative outcomes
 

Intangibos

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note: you're the trans person in the group and if you openly address the issue and tell everyone around you that the language makes you personally feel more comfortable, then you are now in control of the issue. the people who could (they wouldn't be because they are your friends) have the power and oppress you can't do this with that language anymore because of how you addressed the issue. the vast majority of [minority] aren't able to do that because often they aren't even public about the issue, in fear of one of many possible negative outcomes

This was the language long before, though, which is the issue. The whole piece is about people feeling scared to come out because of 'casual homophobia', which isn't always the case. Everyone's casual relaxed attitude about literally everything in the group is what made me feel relaxed. If my friends and I weren't constantly ribbing each other, not only for imaginary things, but actual things like where they're from, I wouldn't have realized no matter how much **** we talk, we don't really mean it. Well, that and that we're all liberals anyway, even though we also hate liberals :laugh:

For me, if someone casually says they hate gay people, or that they're uncomfortable around them or whatever, that's a whole other thing than saying "well that was pretty gay" after a movie or something. Its like, when you say a movie is gay, that makes no sense in terms of a slur. What does "that movie is gay" even mean? It's nonsense. If anything, it's just poor use of language rather than homophobic. Like I said though, that's just me, and there are some situations where I accept that I'm the minority in that way of thinking.
 

Verviticus

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even if its not a conscious homophobic thing, it still promotes the use of a word that means homosexual as a negative thing
 

RobertKron

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This was the language long before, though, which is the issue. The whole piece is about people feeling scared to come out because of 'casual homophobia', which isn't always the case. Everyone's casual relaxed attitude about literally everything in the group is what made me feel relaxed. If my friends and I weren't constantly ribbing each other, not only for imaginary things, but actual things like where they're from, I wouldn't have realized no matter how much **** we talk, we don't really mean it. Well, that and that we're all liberals anyway, even though we also hate liberals :laugh:

For me, if someone casually says they hate gay people, or that they're uncomfortable around them or whatever, that's a whole other thing than saying "well that was pretty gay" after a movie or something. Its like, when you say a movie is gay, that makes no sense in terms of a slur. What does "that movie is gay" even mean? It's nonsense. If anything, it's just poor use of language rather than homophobic. Like I said though, that's just me, and there are some situations where I accept that I'm the minority in that way of thinking.

In the other thread you said this:

Hate speech is hate speech. The problem is what defines hate speech. Tip: Hate speech isn't what offends you personally. Hate speech is what's used keep down or vilify an entire group of people. My buddy saying "hey ***" or me saying that to them is not hate speech. It might be offensive to some people, and around those people we try not to use that language, but it certainly isn't hate speech.

Societally viewing a group of people so negatively that they "innocently" are used as a synonym for the word "bad" is "just poor use of language rather than homophobic?"

Edit: wanted to add - even if an individual is not personally in agreement with that mindset, by playing that game "innocently" or not, they're still perpetuating that cultural atmosphere, which ****ing sucks regardless of how much they mean it.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
28,584
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Breeder actually is a derogatory term towards heterosexuals, it's just nobody cares because heterosexuals are the largest group. What if the world was 50/50, would breeder be acceptable then? Maybe someone's whole group of friends are gay and they don't feel comfortable in saying they're straight (in this insane imaginary 50/50 scenario). You shouldn't just assume some words are acceptable because they're derogatory to the majority. I don't say gay slurs to strangers because they may be offended, in fact, I don't use slurs in general to strangers because they may be offended. That's why they're slurs. What you're basically saying is that slurs are only hurtful if they're used on the minority. People don't like being discriminated against or excluded. If a straight male went to hang out with a few gay friends and they wouldn't let him hang out with them anymore and called him a breeder, it would be kind of hurtful. While slurs against homosexuals are more prominent, and more likely to offend people when they are used, if your stance is that you shouldn't offend people like that, you shouldn't use any slurs at all.



I do care about the people who would be hurt by things I say, that's why I don't say these things around those people.

I know perfectly well how the words might affect people, and I know for a fact that my friends aren't offended by it. You can trust when I say that no one of my friends is offended by it, or feel scared to come out if one of them were gay. Partly because they all use the slurs as well, and partly because I myself am trans. That's why I've been so active in this thread, it's an important subject to me. I can't play beer league hockey because I'm not sure how people would react to me. It would be pretty silly for my friends to be afraid to come out when I'm out to them in the first place, and everyone is cool with it. It's not about being a more thoughtful and compassionate human being. When I go to my support groups, I sure as hell don't use the same language there as I do with my primary group of friends. You know what my biggest fear was coming out to my friends with the whole trans thing? It wasn't that they wouldn't accept me, it was that things would change. We always spoke this way, and I can't stand when people walk on eggshells to try to accommodate me.

I can certainly understand other people's point of view, I just don't agree with them. I've been called slurs before playfully and seriously and I had very different reactions to each. Sometimes a friend will ask "how is the tranny thing going". That word is considered offensive, but not to me. In fact, I almost prefer it because it's more loose and casual than other terms. I understand that people feel just as hurt by both playful/casual and serious remarks, but in private with my own friends who don't, I want to act like myself and talk like myself, and I specifically choose friends who I can feel comfortable with.

thanks for sharing that. obviously, that changes the context enormously.

charles barkley, who i usually find to be a thoughtful person, recently said, regarding jason collins, something to the effect of: guys in the locker room, they'll rib on you for being gay, just like they'll rib on you for being from the south or being overweight or having a bad haircut. that's just jock talk and it don't mean nothing. steve kerr, also generally a thoughtful guy, agreed with him.

but i think there's a very big difference between what you said upthread from your point of view, and the exact same things said from the point of view of some straight, white cis guy in a frat house playing halo and telling people over his headset that [they are homosexuals and that he forcefully made them have sex with him]. and i'd have to assume that's what robert kron was responding to above; certainly once you threw down the "politically correct" card, that's what i thought i was responding to.

but it's a complicated question, to what degree locker room culture is alienating and to what degree a sense of camaraderie (as barkley and kerr suggest) transcends certain kinds of alienation and hurtful language. you say that you can't play beer league hockey, and i think that's a very common phenomenon. i know a bunch of people who quit organized hockey in peewee or team sports in high school, one guy even just stopped going to gym class completely, for the same reason. but to me the complicated thing is, guys casually saying homophobic things in the context of a beer league locker room would say all the same things about not meaning offense, and that everyone knows everyone's cool with everyone, and that everyone gets ribbed on, not just sexual minorities.
 

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