Trade Value - current Jonas Brodin vs. Max Pacioretty in September

[Randy Randerson]

from a trade forum thread. Wondering which you think is/was the more valuable player (trade value in a vacuum).

I know it's a weird comparison

Pacioretty on sept 10th of this year (the day he was traded to Vegas) - 29 going on 30, 5 total years of service left (signed a 4 year extension on the day of the trade), coming off a bad year but a very good 1st line winger for his career

Brodin (current) - 25, 20-25pt defenseman with no pp time, 3 years of control left on a good contract, good #3dman that can play on the top pair at even strength

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[The Nuge]

Top line winger vs a 3/4 dman. Dmen are worth more in general, but Patches is the better player by a fair bit

 

[ESH]

Top line winger vs a 3/4 dman. Dmen are worth more in general, but Patches is the better player by a fair bit

Brodin has shown in the past that he’s capable of handling top-pair minutes

 

[Randy Randerson]

Top line winger vs a 3/4 dman. Dmen are worth more in general, but Patches is the better player by a fair bit

I think that if Brodin is your #4 you have a ridiculous D corps, and if he's your #2 that doesn't necessarily mean you have a bad D corps. Maybe #3 is more apt as a description for him and I'll edit that in to the OP. I think being 5 years younger and not having had a really bad year before the trade also count in his favour in this comparison too

 

[Cobra Commander]

Not a good comparison

Brodin is a career 20.4 points per 82 games

Brodin is a 20 point defensive D-man

Pacioretty a proven 30+ goal 1st line sniper who is great defensively.

Pacioretty > Brodin

 

[Ctrain2k]

Not a good comparison

Brodin is a career 20.4 points per 82 games

Brodin is a 20 point defensive D-man

Pacioretty a proven 30+ goal 1st line sniper who is great defensively.

Pacioretty > Brodin

Pacioretty is a 30 year old pending ufa. Brodin is a mid 20 top 4 D on a great contract.

Brodin>Pacioretty

 

[Cobra Commander]

from a trade forum thread. Wondering which you think is/was the more valuable player. I know it's a weird comparison, it came up on a trade thread

Pacioretty on sept 10th of this year (the day he was traded to Vegas) - 29 going on 30, 5 total years of service left (signed a 4 year extension on the day of the trade), coming off a bad year but a very good 1st line winger for his career

Brodin (current) - 25, 20-25pt defenseman with no pp time, 3 years of control left on a good contract, good #3dman that can play on the top pair at even strength

Brodin has no PP time because he isn’t good offensively. You put your offensive defenseman on a power play.

He’s a career 20 point guy with top 4 minutes. Any defensively responsible D-man can get 20 points playing those minutes. He doesn’t generate or drive offense on his own. Brodin is a solid player no question. But Pacioretty’s offense is worth more.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Pacioretty is a 30 year old pending ufa. Brodin is a mid 20 top 4 D on a great contract.

Brodin>Pacioretty

Ok so I guess in a trade Brodin would have got the Wild:

Suzuki
Tatar
2019 2nd

Get real.

Vegas fans would have burned down the T-Mobile Arena.

You do know what Vegas had to give up to get Tatar don’t you?

 

[Randy Randerson]

Brodin has no PP time because he isn’t good offensively. You put your offensive defenseman on a power play.

He’s a career 20 point guy with top 4 minutes. Any defensively responsible D-man can get 20 points playing those minutes. He doesn’t generate or drive offense on his own. Brodin is a solid player no question. But Pacioretty’s offense is worth more.

The Wild have a lot of offensive talent on the back end, they're putting their best foot forward, but they are very rich in talented D men (hence why they traded Scandella ahead of the expansion draft, more good ones to protect than they had protections slots)

that said, Brodin doesn't need offense to be more valuable than a 30yo winger coming off the worst year of his career

Ok so I guess in a trade Brodin would have got the Wild:

Suzuki
Tatar
2019 2nd

Get real.

yes, something like that value is what it would take to get Brodin. You're also wildly over-estimating Suzuki, I couldn't find him on any published top 50 prospects list coming into this year. He was Vegas's 3rd prospect on most lists behind Glass and Brannstrom, and he would be behind both of those guys today as they're having better years than he is

 

[Cobra Commander]

The Wild have a lot of offensive talent on the back end, they're putting their best foot forward, but they are very rich in talented D men (hence why they traded Scandella ahead of the expansion draft, more good ones to protect than they had protections slots)

that said, Brodin doesn't need offense to be more valuable than a 30yo winger coming off the worst year of his career



yes, something like that value is what it would take to get Brodin. You're also wildly over-estimating Suzuki, I couldn't find him on any published top 50 prospects list coming into this year. He was Vegas's 3rd prospect on most lists behind Glass and Brannstrom, and he would be behind both of those guys today as they're having better years than he is

The OP’s agenda is very clear in this thread now he’s trying to manipulate the facts his way, and just created this thread to bash Pacioretty.

Tatar and Suzuki are also worth nothing apparently

You’re looking at the top 50 list of prospects with at least 25 games played in the NHL on NHL.com,
Or looking at the top 50 undrafted prospect lists probably.

And Tatar? Vegas payed a 1st + 2nd + 3rd for him.

 

[Randy Randerson]

The OP’s agenda is very clear in this thread now he’s trying to manipulate the facts his way, and just created this thread to bash Pacioretty.

I worded the thread in a way that my position wouldn't be obvious, and Pacioretty is a very good 1st line winger. But very good 1st line wingers are not more valuable than #3 defensemen, especially when those defensemen are at the beginning of their primes and the wingers are nearing the end of their primes. For context, the best recent trade comparable for Brodin is Adam Larsson

by "manipulating facts" do you mean "stating facts"? I didn't spin where Suzuki is on the lists that were published coming into this year, I couldn't find him in a top 50 and couldn't find a farm system ranking that had him as the top organizational prospect of VGK. I would say this is more you "denying facts", but if you can find something from a reputable source that contravenes what I've said here, please do post it

 

[Cobra Commander]

I worded the thread in a way that my position wouldn't be obvious, and Pacioretty is a very good 1st line winger. But very good 1st line wingers are not more valuable than #3 defensemen, especially when those defensemen are at the beginning of their primes and the wingers are nearing the end of their primes. For context, the best recent trade comparable for Brodin is Adam Larsson

by "manipulating facts" do you mean "stating facts"? I didn't spin where Suzuki is on the lists that were published coming into this year, I couldn't find him in a top 50 and couldn't find a farm system ranking that had him as the top organizational prospect of VGK. I would say this is more you "denying facts", but if you can find something from a reputable source that contravenes what I've said here, please do post it

Ya that Adam Larsson deal is really working out for the Oilers. More proof that you don’t trade high end talent for defensive defenseman.

 

[Randy Randerson]

Ya that Adam Larsson deal is really working out for the Oilers. More proof that you don’t trade high end talent for defensive defenseman.

agree that the Hall for Larsson deal was bad for the Oilers from day 1, but Pacioretty is not and never has been close to as good as Taylor Hall. I don't like the Hall/Larsson deal as precedent because it hasn't been repeated, but it should give some perspective that someone was willing to give up a much better winger who was 5 years younger than Pacioretty for a similar defenseman to Brodin (who was 1 year younger than Brodin at the time)

 

[tony d]

Both are good but give me Patches here.

 

[Cobra Commander]

agree that the Hall for Larsson deal was bad for the Oilers from day 1, but Pacioretty is not and never has been close to as good as Taylor Hall. I don't like the Hall/Larsson deal as precedent because it hasn't been repeated, but it should give some perspective that someone was willing to give up a much better winger who was 5 years younger than Pacioretty for a similar defenseman to Brodin (who was 1 year younger than Brodin at the time)

Pacioretty is an elite goal scorer, you can’t get those for defensive defenseman.

Vegas traded Tatar a 27 year old 23 goal per 82 games player for him, plus a top OHL goal scoring prospect in Suzuki, and a 2nd round pick.

Ovechkin is 33, so 8 years older but I guess that makes it a fair trade for Brodin right??

 

[Randy Randerson]

Pacioretty is an elite goal scorer, you can’t get those for defensive defenseman.

Vegas traded Tatar a 27 year old 23 goal per 82 games player for him, plus a top OHL goal scoring prospect in Suzuki, and a 2nd round pick.

Ovechkin is 33, so 8 years older but I guess that makes it a fair trade for Brodin right??

well, NJ did, Pittsburgh got one for far less, Philly signed one this offseason for a reasonable contract, etc. "Elite" might be strong for a guy who's never broken the 40 goal plateau depending on how you define it, he'll never compete for a Richard so I certainly wouldn't expand the definition to include him

and did you just compare Pacioretty to a 1st ballot hall of famer, and maybe the best player from his hockey-power country of all time? hahahahaha

 

[Cobra Commander]

well, NJ did, Pittsburgh got one for far less, Philly signed one this offseason for a reasonable contract, etc.

and did you just compare Pacioretty to a 1st ballot hall of famer, and maybe the best player from his hockey-power country of all time? hahahahaha

No but i’m just going by your logic. Ovechkin is 3 years older than Pacioretty. Your logic is flawed. Where will Brodin be at 30 years old? The point is that offense is worth more than defense and goal scoring is extremely valuable in today’s NHL. You don’t trade a big piece like Pacioretty for a defensive D-man because he’s 5 years younger.

 

[Randy Randerson]

No but i’m just going by your logic. Ovechkin is 3 years older than Pacioretty. Your logic is flawed. Where will Brodin be at 30 years old? The point is that offense is worth more than defense and goal scoring is extremely valuable in today’s NHL. You don’t trade a big piece like Pacioretty for a defensive D-man because he’s 5 years younger.

Ovechkin is a near generational franchise player who's currently on pace to more than double Pacioretty's goals, he's tiers removed from the Pacioretty/JVR/Neal/Rakell/etc's. Age is a factor in a players value, it's not the only factor. What you're doing right now is called "manipulation", but you don't do it well

Teams do trade offense for defense, and equivalent value to what Pacioretty got in packages for defensemen of Brodin's caliber, so you should probably send a memo to the NHL GM's that "you don't do that".

you also continue to call Brodin strictly defensive, which is utterly not true. He doesn't get PP time on a team that's deep on the blueline and his 5v5 scoring rates are equivalent to 35-40pt dmen who do. You obviously haven't watched him play, he's smooth with the puck

 

[Deficient Mode]

Pacioretty is more valuable in that he's likely to provide a significantly bigger impact on your results going forward. Brodin may have more trade value as he's far younger with more prime years left, and there are fewer reliable defensemen in the league than top 6 wingers. If I were GM of a contending team, I'd certainly want Pacioretty more than Brodin.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Ovechkin is a near generational franchise player who's currently on pace to double Pacioretty's goals, he's tiers removed from the Pacioretty/JVR/Neal/Rakell/etc's. Age is a factor in a players value, it's not the only factor. What you're doing right now is called "manipulation", but you don't do it well

Teams do trade offense for defense, and equivalent value to what Pacioretty got in packages, so you should probably send a memo to the NHL GM's that "you don't do that".

Forget about Ovechkin. And Pacioretty has been a top 5 goal scorer most of these years without ever having a center to play with, he did that with DesHarnais and Danault.. imagine if he had been playing next to Backstrom and Kucherov..

Rakell > Pacioretty > Brodin

Rakell >> Brodin (ask Anaheim for a good laugh)

Pacioretty is better than JVR defensively and slightly better offensively, better shot.

Neal is finished

Still Pacioretty > Brodin

 

[Randy Randerson]

Forget about Ovechkin.

Rakell > Pacioretty > Brodin

Rakell > Brodin (ask Anaheim for a good laugh)

Pacioretty is better than JVR defensively and slightly better offensively, better shot.

Neal is finished

Still Pacioretty > Brodin

Don't bring guys up that you don't want to talk about, think about how they apply before you bring them up

they tier together, as you can see by the mixed result in this poll.

Brodin certainly gets a package like Suzuki++

Pacioretty is more valuable in that he's likely to provide a significantly bigger impact on your results going forward. Brodin may have more trade value as he's far younger with more prime years left, and there are fewer reliable defensemen in the league than top 6 wingers. If I were GM of a contending team, I'd certainly want Pacioretty more than Brodin.

trade value in a vacuum was the premise here, I edited it in to the OP. sorry for the confusion, my bad

 

[biturbo19]

Definitely Brodin in my estimation. Young Top-3/Top-pairing complementary capable Defenceman on a good contract for a few more years > Older Top-6 Winger coming off a down year and an impending UFA. Pretty easily imo. There are just so many teams who could really use a versatile young defenceman like Brodin...that market for good young D is crazy.

 

[Cobra Commander]

Don't bring guys up that you don't want to talk about, think about how they apply before you bring them up

they tier together, as you can see by the mixed result in this poll.

Brodin certainly gets a package like Suzuki++



trade value in a vacuum was the premise here, I edited it in to the OP. sorry for the confusion, my bad

So I guess you agree with the rest of my post since you didn’t offer a reply.

 

[Randy Randerson]

So I guess you agree with the rest of my post since you didn’t offer a reply.

sure, I guess you agree that Brodin is worth what Pacioretty got in trade since you didn't offer a reply

 

[Cobra Commander]

sure, I guess you agree that Brodin is worth what Pacioretty got in trade since you didn't offer a reply

I’m happy you agree with me and are coming to your senses but...

Brodin is not worth:

Tatar
Suzuki
2019 2nd