Speculation: Trade Thread Part XI: New year...no trades.

[Trxjw]

Continue.

Click to read more...

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

Doncha just hate it when you write a long response to another poster without realizing it's going to fall like 3rd from the end of the thread?

 

[BBKers]

Not a fan really

But I could see Sather doing something like this:

TRADES

• MDZ for Fransson and a 3rd
• Stepan, Hagelin, Krsito/2nd for E Kane & 7th
• Brassard and prospect/4th for Berglund
• Boyle to Vancouver for a 2nd (or eventually Montreal)
• Trade some smaller pieces for the obligatory Sather goon McGrattan (to teach Big Mac a thing or two)

Resigns free agents Cally (5,8M), Girardi (5,5 M), Zucc (3M), Kreider (2,5 M) & J Moore (1,8 M)
Lets the rest walk (we should get something for Stralman IMO)
Signs UFAs Statsny (Typical Sather) & Tanner Glass

2014/2015 ROSTER

FORWARDS
Evander Kane ($5.250m) / Paul Stastny ($7.000m) / Rick Nash ($7.800m)
Chris Kreider ($2.500m) / J.T. Miller ($0.894m) / Ryan Callahan ($5.700m)
Mats Zuccarello ($3.000m) / Patrik Berglund ($3.550m) / Jesper Fast ($0.805m) Or ev Kristo
Tanner Glass ($1.500m) / Oscar Lindberg ($0.675m) / Derek Dorsett ($1.633m)
Brian McGrattan ($0.750m)

DEFENSEMEN
Ryan McDonagh ($4.700m) / Dan Girardi ($5.500m)
Marc Staal ($3.975m) / Cody Franson ($2.400m)
John Moore ($1.800m) / Conor Allen ($0.925m)
Dylan McIlrath ($0.703m)

GOALTENDERS
Henrik Lundqvist ($8.500m)
Cameron Talbot ($0.563m)

BUYOUTS
Brad Richards ($0.000m)
------
TOTALS
SALARY CAP: $71,100,000; CAP PAYROLL: $70,123,333; BONUSES: $1,971,667
CAP SPACE (23-man roster): $976,667

 

[Ail]

Let's just re-sign everybody and stay the course. I think I see an iceberg.

 

[Ola]

Are you that thick? I said multiple times that that's exactly NOT WHAT I THINK. Brian Boyle backed me up on that too. What is your problem?

I see you enjoy this washed up core that leads us to mediocrity year after year.

Oh, you don't like people misquoting you?

THEN STOP ****ING PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You obviously cannot follow my reasoning, you think I like our play this season? I've probably slept less then 3 hrs a night 15 times this season because I have been so pissed after a loss.

The thing is, people won't hand us Cup.

Do you think Yzerman in Tampa will go:
Hey, they deserve one in NY, lets give them the Cup this year.

Or Peter Chiarelli will go:
Oh, the fans in NY really don't like their team this year, we gotta find a way to get them the cup.

I am sorry, newsflash, it don't work like that. I not dumb, I understand the thinking. Deal a vet for prospects and picks, hope to get lucky, regroup and go at it again. I would also be for that option, if I thought we got meaningless odds at succeeding with it if we dealt Girardi and Callahan. Because on the other side of the scale, by dismantling our team, we hurt the current kids and prospects we have. From McD to Kreider, good players are developed on good teams. Good players are destroyed on bad teams. But the thing is, looking at the current market, I just don't sense that this is a year where teams will pay a boat load for a rental. Hence, I don't think the odds really are improving in a meaningful way by dealing them for like "Kyle Palmieri" and a late 1st.

There is 30 teams in this league, you will not automatically improving by "taking a step backwards". More than anything, unless you are "the" team that really takes the most steps backwards of all by a wide margin, history has shown that the worst way to build a team in the NHL is to put yourself just on the outside looking in. We held on too long to Graves and co, its in that environment you really could have dumped 3-4 vets and took a step backwards because we had nothing else. This team has a core even if Dan G and Cally are dealt, Hank, McD, Staal, Hagelin, Stepan and so on and so on. You are at best getting a top 12-14 pick with this team even if you try to dismantle it...

All I am seeing is a bunch of alternatives to take a step backwards. Get a roster player that is a marginal upgrade over Poo and a so-so prospect born in 1996 that might help us in 2018 -- if -- everything turns out alright. Nobody is presenting any meaningful way of moving forward. We could draft a Corey Perry with a 15th overall pick, and we could draft him with a 25th overall pick. Very low odds for either alternative to be honest. We could find a steal in the player we get in return for Girardi, or we could keep Girardi and deal someone else for better value and find the steal that way.

I've numerous times said that I wouldn't hesitate to deal like Cally if we got a meaningful return for him. The thing is, on the current market, I just doubt we would get a meaningful return.

 

[Trxjw]

Doncha just hate it when you write a long response to another poster without realizing it's going to fall like 3rd from the end of the thread?

I usually try to copy the last 20 posts, but I'm on mobile and it's a PITA. You can just copy and paste your post in this thread though.

 

[The Gloaming]

Oh, you don't like people misquoting you?

THEN STOP ****ING PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH. You obviously cannot follow my reasoning, you think I like our play this season? I've probably slept less then 3 hrs a night 15 times this season because I have been so pissed after a loss.

The thing is, people won't hand us Cup.

Do you think Yzerman in Tampa will go:
Hey, they deserve one in NY, lets give them the Cup this year.

Or Peter Chiarelli will go:
Oh, the fans in NY really don't like their team this year, we gotta find a way to get them the cup.

I am sorry, newsflash, it don't work like that. I not dumb, I understand the thinking. Deal a vet for prospects and picks, hope to get lucky, regroup and go at it again. I would also be for that option, if I thought we got meaningless odds at succeeding with it if we dealt Girardi and Callahan. Because on the other side of the scale, by dismantling our team, we hurt the current kids and prospects we have. From McD to Kreider, good players are developed on good teams. Good players are destroyed on bad teams. But the thing is, looking at the current market, I just don't sense that this is a year where teams will pay a boat load for a rental. Hence, I don't think the odds really are improving in a meaningful way by dealing them for like "Kyle Palmieri" and a late 1st.

There is 30 teams in this league, you will not automatically improving by "taking a step backwards". More than anything, unless you are "the" team that really takes the most steps backwards of all by a wide margin, history has shown that the worst way to build a team in the NHL is to put yourself just on the outside looking in. We held on too long to Graves and co, its in that environment you really could have dumped 3-4 vets and took a step backwards because we had nothing else. This team has a core even if Dan G and Cally are dealt, Hank, McD, Staal, Hagelin, Stepan and so on and so on. You are at best getting a top 12-14 pick with this team even if you try to dismantle it...

All I am seeing is a bunch of alternatives to take a step backwards. Get a roster player that is a marginal upgrade over Poo and a so-so prospect born in 1996 that might help us in 2018 -- if -- everything turns out alright. Nobody is presenting any meaningful way of moving forward. We could draft a Corey Perry with a 15th overall pick, and we could draft him with a 25th overall pick. Very low odds for either alternative to be honest. We could find a steal in the player we get in return for Girardi, or we could keep Girardi and deal someone else for better value and find the steal that way.

I've numerous times said that I wouldn't hesitate to deal like Cally if we got a meaningful return for him. The thing is, on the current market, I just doubt we would get a meaningful return.

And what would be a "meaningful return" for Callahan? I really want to hear this.

 

[Ola]

Alkurtz-

You make it sound so easy. The draft is one big crap shoot. You just never know how 18 year olds will develop. You might think you know or hope you know, but you never really know. The history of the draft is full of high picks that teams did their due dilgence on that didn't pan out. And that's not even taking injuries into account. Even with excellent scouting and a first class developmental program, many high picks never pan out.

It also works the other way. Look at the Bruins and two unique players, Lucic and Bergeron. Both taken in the second round. Some would give the Bruins high marks for drafting these guys. But the Bruins never thought they would develop as they did, otherwise they would have taken them in the first round. 29 other teams passed on them in the first round and many teams didn't pick them is the second. The Bruins got lucky.

Bottom line in the draft is: You never, ever know. Every team wants to build through the draft. Every team drafts players they hope will excel in the NHL. But it remains one big roulette game.

Given their UFA status I am not adverse to trading Cally or Girardi. But I'm not willing to give them away. The deal must be right. I'm not willing to give up on this season unless we are getting top 10 picks or young proven talent back.

My expectations are realistic for this team: hopefully make the playoffs and win a round. Come April, I want to be in the playoffs.

Having high draft picks is no guarantee of success: look at the Oilers, how many high picks have the Panthers had?

Yes, build through the draft. But you can have 5 picks in the top 10 and still not be successful.

It's not easy, especially when you are drafting kids. Its easier, but still not a sure thing in the NFL or NBA. Just as hard in MLB which requires years of developmental time. But just to say that all we need to do is draft high end players does not guarantee success or winning the Cup.

Couldn't agree more.

There are a few ways to build a cup-winning team in this league. None of them are easy. And taking a half-assed step backwards isn't one of them. Could that make sense anyway? Of course, you always gotta manage your cap. Plan ahead. But on many it seems like odds are that you will get better if you take a step backwards. History shows otherwise. That thinking has been the biggest iceberg in the NHL the last 30 years.

 

[Ola]

BrooklynRangersFan- I liked the use of ergo!

I am just allergic to the notion that if what we have won't win a cup its always better to get something else. Even if that something else is worse than what we have and give us a worse chance to winning a Cup.

That type of thinking is perfectly on par with trading Korpikoski for Lisin. Will Korpikoski win us a cup? Ok lets trade him for Lisin then. I am sorry, but we didn't become one bit better by that trade either. A Ford Fiesta is a Ford Fiesta no matter how much you call it a Ferrari. If we get a roster player and the 26th overall pick, more or less 24 other team has a bigger chance to pick a great player in the draft than us no matter what.

Hence I am at least willing to consider to not dump our captain and No 1 RD (a position that it is real hard to find a player at these days) for crap. No matter if the contracts aren't ideal.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

I usually try to copy the last 20 posts, but I'm on mobile and it's a PITA. You can just copy and paste your post in this thread though.

Hahaha. No worries - I wasn't complaining about the quality of the moderating; rather I was lamenting the timing of my posting.

 

[Pizza]

Sometimes the best deals are the ones you don't make.

It only makes sense to make a move that will strengthen the team. The Rangers have made some bad moves of late and are not in a strong bargaining position right now.

I do not expect they will make any deals soon. But people like the idea of trades so this discussion is endless....and unproductive in my view.

 

[SlingshotVv]

How do you wind up with a top 5 pick with Lundqvist, McDonagh, Stepan, Kreider, and Nash in your line-up? Nash isn't going anywhere, and unless the wheels fall off the development of those guys, we're going to be icing a very talented core every night. They're already surrounded by a lot of suspect role players and they're not in lottery position, with a first year coach, and an entire new defensive scheme. So unless you're breaking up that core, forget the lottery dreams please. At worst those guys alone will carry us outside the lottery

 

[SnowblindNYR]

How do you wind up with a top 5 pick with Lundqvist, McDonagh, Stepan, Kreider, and Nash in your line-up? Nash isn't going anywhere, and unless the wheels fall off the development of those guys, we're going to be icing a very talented core every night. They're already surrounded by a lot of suspect role players and they're not in lottery position, with a first year coach, and an entire new defensive scheme. So unless you're breaking up that core, forget the lottery dreams please. At worst those guys alone will carry us outside the lottery

The lottery is not 5 deep anymore.

 

[Paulie Walnutz]

So bring everyone back with no cap space and let the mediocrity continue. People think players are like a rare coin collection and never want to part ways. You'd think we're the Blackhawks with this so called "core" that can't be moved

 

[Ola]

And what would be a "meaningful return" for Callahan? I really want to hear this.

Look, please not that this is not what I think we will get, but what I think is enough to make up for what we loose, IE our heart and soul.

Id like to get a sure fire player. Someone that I know will count here in NY. Not a gamble. Not someone that is decent but not great all round nor really fill a need for us (say a Tatar, if a player with Tatar's skill was a RD I would be interested however).

To start with, you also gotta find a team that you can let Cally talk to so that the can agree on a deal before a trade is made so that you don't deal a rental.

So you know, Id definitely deal Cally, Girardi and Boyle for Yakupov and Eberle. But what does that take? THat EDM is desperate to jump start their game AND that EDM can talk with Cally and G and convince them to resign in EDM. What are the odds for that?

When Dallas traded James Neal, he was already a established 30 goal scorer. A PF. That is a good piece to get. Brayden Schenn is a good piece to get when Philly got him from LA. More or less a sure thing while the upside was / is a bit in question. Seguin was a good pickup. Hampus Lindholm from ANA is a player I would take, probably the only one that isn't completely unrealistic of the player mentioned so far...

Its not easy to get for a rental though. OTOH, our rentals aren't 35 y/o. They are 28 and 29 y/o, and any team getting them can just find out the asking price and resign them instantly. As can we.

I also definitely wouldn't be opposed to trading them for established players. Like getting say a Brent Burns to use as RD.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

BrooklynRangersFan- I liked the use of ergo!

I am just allergic to the notion that if what we have won't win a cup its always better to get something else. Even if that something else is worse than what we have and give us a worse chance to winning a Cup.

That type of thinking is perfectly on par with trading Korpikoski for Lisin. Will Korpikoski win us a cup? Ok lets trade him for Lisin then. I am sorry, but we didn't become one bit better by that trade either. A Ford Fiesta is a Ford Fiesta no matter how much you call it a Ferrari. If we get a roster player and the 26th overall pick, more or less 24 other team has a bigger chance to pick a great player in the draft than us no matter what.

Hence I am at least willing to consider to not dump our captain and No 1 RD (a position that it is real hard to find a player at these days) for crap. No matter if the contracts aren't ideal.

Listen, I understand that thinking generally. And were it two years ago, I would have agreed with you. Heck, I was fully on board with adding Nash to the core guys and thought we'd have a legit chance at the cup.

But once you've determined that the core you have isn't going to cut it, it's time to go back and start working on a new core. (It becomes especially imperative when key members of the current core are about to hit 30 AND cash in on Drury-esque retirement contracts.) That starts by maximizing the return (good, great, or indifferent) for the guys you have.

Now, I'm not saying dump them right now for whatever you can get. I don't want what was proposed in the Ott offer for MDZ over the holidays - and I don't think you have to settle for that. What I'm saying is that (unless someone is prepared to make a preemptive move now) you hold on to them until the deadline when bidding drives all the prices up and move them then.

(Back to ABCs. ) Summing up, there are three possible outcomes:

A) We trade Cally and Girardi for the best packages we can get at the deadline.
B) We hang onto them and sign them to contracts.
C) We hang onto them and let them go to other teams in the offseason, receiving nothing for them in return.

I wish there was an option D where they were the core of a cup contender signed to long term contracts and we were going to go out and add to them, but unfortunately that isn't the case.

Therefore, A > B > C. Why? Scenario A gives you more chances (even if they're longshots) to find new core players. Scenario B gives you less chances - and you've burdened yourself with new contracts that are likely to wind up being Drury-esque before they're done. And in scenario C, you've got the same chance we've got now - except you've wasted some prime assets.

 

[The Gloaming]

Look, please not that this is not what I think we will get, but what I think is enough to make up for what we loose, IE our heart and soul.

Id like to get a sure fire player. Someone that I know will count here in NY. Not a gamble. Not someone that is decent but not great all round nor really fill a need for us (say a Tatar, if a player with Tatar's skill was a RD I would be interested however).

To start with, you also gotta find a team that you can let Cally talk to so that the can agree on a deal before a trade is made so that you don't deal a rental.

So you know, Id definitely deal Cally, Girardi and Boyle for Yakupov and Eberle. But what does that take? THat EDM is desperate to jump start their game AND that EDM can talk with Cally and G and convince them to resign in EDM. What are the odds for that?

When Dallas traded James Neal, he was already a established 30 goal scorer. A PF. That is a good piece to get. Brayden Schenn is a good piece to get when Philly got him from LA. More or less a sure thing while the upside was / is a bit in question. Seguin was a good pickup. Hampus Lindholm from ANA is a player I would take, probably the only one that isn't completely unrealistic of the player mentioned so far...

Its not easy to get for a rental though. OTOH, our rentals aren't 35 y/o. They are 28 and 29 y/o, and any team getting them can just find out the asking price and resign them instantly. As can we.

I also definitely wouldn't be opposed to trading them for established players. Like getting say a Brent Burns to use as RD.

So now Eberle and Yakupov coming back in the same deal is realistic?

You and I both would love Lindholm, but he's about as unrealistic as it gets for Anaheim.

Burns has insane chemistry with Thornton. Why is San Jose trading him for UFA's-to-be?

 

[Trxjw]

I think the common misconception is that many people feel that those of us who are advocating for a "step back" are basically advocating for a Oilers-esque tank job. That's simply not the case. Yes, the draft is a crap shoot, but by increasing your odds with more picks, you increase the likelihood that you'll land quality talent.

The reality is that championship teams are built through the draft, free agency, and trades. Everything needs to be in balance. There's nothing wrong with landing a high pick this year and then making a shrewd FA signing on July 1st. What matters is that they all build towards the same goal: A championship caliber team that has an identity.

This team has been marred by inconsistency for years now. They're chasing the dream of squeaking into the playoffs once again, and people are lying to themselves if they think this is a team built for the playoffs, or if they think a couple of tweaks is going to turn this into a contender. Taking a risk on draft picks, or a trade of Girardi and / or Callahan is no more risky than signing two aging players to extended contracts. Especially when one is injured at least once per year, and the other is clearly average at best in the system the team is playing.

You need to build the team around players that fit. Right now, Girardi looks like a bad fit.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Look, please not that this is not what I think we will get, but what I think is enough to make up for what we loose, IE our heart and soul.

Id like to get a sure fire player. Someone that I know will count here in NY. Not a gamble. Not someone that is decent but not great all round nor really fill a need for us (say a Tatar, if a player with Tatar's skill was a RD I would be interested however).

To start with, you also gotta find a team that you can let Cally talk to so that the can agree on a deal before a trade is made so that you don't deal a rental.

So you know, Id definitely deal Cally, Girardi and Boyle for Yakupov and Eberle. But what does that take? THat EDM is desperate to jump start their game AND that EDM can talk with Cally and G and convince them to resign in EDM. What are the odds for that?

When Dallas traded James Neal, he was already a established 30 goal scorer. A PF. That is a good piece to get. Brayden Schenn is a good piece to get when Philly got him from LA. More or less a sure thing while the upside was / is a bit in question. Seguin was a good pickup. Hampus Lindholm from ANA is a player I would take, probably the only one that isn't completely unrealistic of the player mentioned so far...

Its not easy to get for a rental though. OTOH, our rentals aren't 35 y/o. They are 28 and 29 y/o, and any team getting them can just find out the asking price and resign them instantly. As can we.

I also definitely wouldn't be opposed to trading them for established players. Like getting say a Brent Burns to use as RD.

We aren't getting Burns unless we give up McD.

But we should really pester Winnipeg for Byfuglien who has evolved into a really good player who is definitely undervalued at the moment. He also happens to fit everything we lack in a defenceman AND he has a very good contract.

 

[Brooklyn Rangers Fan]

We aren't getting Burns unless we give up McD.

But we should really pester Winnipeg for Byfuglien who has evolved into a really good player who is definitely undervalued at the moment. He also happens to fit everything we lack in a defenceman AND he has a very good contract.

Buff is an interesting target. Kane is an interesting target. Brayden Schenn is (still) an interesting target. There have got to be 25-30 prospects who I can't list off the top of my head who are interesting targets. First round picks are always interesting targets. There are all kinds of interesting targets - and all of them will have risks. But those are the risks you take once you know you don't have the proper core in place.

 

[haveandare]

So now Eberle and Yakupov coming back in the same deal is realistic?

You and I both would love Lindholm, but he's about as unrealistic as it gets for Anaheim.

Burns has insane chemistry with Thornton. Why is San Jose trading him for UFA's-to-be?

I think the point was that it's not terribly realistic, but those are the kinds of returns that he thinks would justify trading these guys. Therefore, it's probably not wise to trade them for whatever assortment of maybes they'll realistically bring back.

 

[The Gloaming]

I think the point was that it's not terribly realistic, but those are the kinds of returns that he thinks would justify trading these guys. Therefore, it's probably not wise to trade them for whatever assortment of maybes they'll realistically bring back.

Well that's just not happening. I would be thrilled with Tatar/Vatanen/Palmieri coming back for either 24 or 5. He calls them all "crap" and then decides that Eberle/Yakupov/Burns are the only realistic targets. Right.

 

[Ghost of jas]

I think the common misconception is that many people feel that those of us who are advocating for a "step back" are basically advocating for a Oilers-esque tank job. That's simply not the case. Yes, the draft is a crap shoot, but by increasing your odds with more picks, you increase the likelihood that you'll land quality talent.

The reality is that championship teams are built through the draft, free agency, and trades. Everything needs to be in balance. There's nothing wrong with landing a high pick this year and then making a shrewd FA signing on July 1st. What matters is that they all build towards the same goal: A championship caliber team that has an identity.

This team has been marred by inconsistency for years now. They're chasing the dream of squeaking into the playoffs once again, and people are lying to themselves if they think this is a team built for the playoffs, or if they think a couple of tweaks is going to turn this into a contender. Taking a risk on draft picks, or a trade of Girardi and / or Callahan is no more risky than signing two aging players to extended contracts. Especially when one is injured at least once per year, and the other is clearly average at best in the system the team is playing.

You need to build the team around players that fit. Right now, Girardi looks like a bad fit.

Exactly...yes, some teams still stink after getting high draft choices, and some teams are able to properly develop those high picks and build winners. I don't want four or five years of suckage to end up where the likes of Edmonton, Florida, Columbus or the Islanders are. But, I would like the opportunity to draft a top line player that is a legitimate piece to add to the core.

As others have said, the group that was built from the 2004-6, (namely, Staal, Callahan, Dubinsky, Girardi, Sauer and Anisimov), had its peak in 2011-2. That group went as far as it could given its limitations. High draft picks don't guarantee success, but, they do give you more ammunition. Giving long-term deals to Callahan and Girardi may appear noble, but, you're more likely to face the law of diminishing returns. I don't want just a round of playoff success. I want Cup contention, and staying the course by signing Girardi and Callahan to market value deals makes it less likely that Cup contention is a possibility. Some fans are making it out as if by not signing Girardi and Callahan, the Rangers are losing integral parts of a winning formula. Again, that group was able to make to the Conference finals by the skin of its teeth under optimal conditions. Those conditions don't exist at the present time.

 

[Blue Blooded]

Buff is an interesting target. Kane is an interesting target. Brayden Schenn is (still) an interesting target. There have got to be 25-30 prospects who I can't list off the top of my head who are interesting targets. First round picks are always interesting targets. There are all kinds of interesting targets - and all of them will have risks. But those are the risks you take once you know you don't have the proper core in place.

Sure, but consider that Buff both is likely cheaper and would help the team more than E. Kane he is a lot better target. We could "overpay" for Buff and still come out ahead so to speak, especially considering how bafflingly undervalued he seems at the moment - virtually no fuss at all has been made of his absence from the Team USA roster. Can't say the same about Kane at all, such a trade would likely rip our team apart.

 

[OverTheCap]

The Rangers need to start stockpiling draft picks, and they should also look to move up in the first round of the draft (something I believe they haven't done since drafting Staal). Make some shrewd trades that targets prospects with high-end potential rather than sacrificing picks and depth for already established players (i.e., Gomez for McDonagh rather than the Nash trade).

Finding young, cost-controlled talent is not easy, especially when you don't have the luxury of lottery picks, but they need to start thinking outside the box, because more of the same old will just end up with another cupless season.