Proposal: Trade Target: Rasmus Kupari

[MBH]

The LA Kings are loaded at Center.
Vilardi looks good.
They've got Byfield. They've got Turcotte.
They've got other prospects, like Jarrett Dolan-Anderson.
And they have Rasmus Kupari.
Having Kupari and Veleno would be a potentially very nice 2-3 punch behind Larkin.
Do the Wings have the assets to get him?

Click to read more...

 

[MabusIncarnate]

That Athanasiou guy they got looks pretty good too

 

[MBH]

That Athanasiou guy they got looks pretty good too

Athanasiou is scoring around a 50+ point pace...
Seems to be getting more trust lately. Real good on the line with Carter-Vilardi.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

real gud too

What's RK's trade value?

 

[Voodoo Glow Skulls]

I hope they don't pay to get him.

He's ok.

 

[OgeeOgelthorpe]

The LA Kings are loaded at Center.
Vilardi looks good.
They've got Byfield. They've got Turcotte.
They've got other prospects, like Jarrett Dolan-Anderson.
And they have Rasmus Kupari.
Having Kupari and Veleno would be a potentially very nice 2-3 punch behind Larkin.
Do the Wings have the assets to get him?

Turcotte is looking like a 3C. They won't trade Kupari. Someone will get shifted to wing.

 

[Tetsuo]

Turcotte is looking like a 3C. They won't trade Kupari. Someone will get shifted to wing.

Or someone will be traded to fill a hole elsewhere. Which, presumably, is why they would trade Kupari. I really don't see a fit for us unless we're giving up a similarly skilled defensemen. For as good as LA's drafting has been, if there was area where Detroit is better than them it's been at drafting defensemen. Our pipeline on both sides is pretty stacked. Problem is, because defenders usually take longer to develop, we have to wait a little bit longer for the pecking order to truly be born out. In general, I think this move would be a little premature for both teams, but a baseline is there to make something happen.

Gun to my head, if I had to move anyone for Kupari, it would be Lindstrom + pick, because I don't really see him being able to crack our top 4 down the road.

 

[MBH]

I don't know that Tuomisto gets it done, but I'd offer him.
Better upside.
LA doesn't need Lindstrom.

 

[Tetsuo]

I don't know that Tuomisto gets it done, but I'd offer him.
Better upside.
LA doesn't need Lindstrom.

Lindstrom will be a capable 6D for a long time, I'm not sure if Tuomisto will even make the NHL yet. I agree that Tuomisto has the better upside, but he's still got a while before he's ready. LA could be competitive pretty soon, depending on how FA goes. I don't hate the value, but I still don't feel as sold on Hronek being in our top 4 long-term, so having a high ceiling guy in a good program appeals to me. Now, if we draft Brandt Clarke, my tune probably changes.

Also, I would argue that Detroit is actually in a pretty good position when it comes to Centers going forward, because Veleno and Niederbach have both shown some pretty positive signs in the SHL (and Allsvenskan) this year. It's still very early to make any kind of realistic projections, but I think Veleno at least has turned a corner in his development and refined his game to be much better at the pro-level; I see some top 6 upside. While Niederbach is simply really exciting because he started so far behind everyone else in his age group but has already made up a ton of ground. And if Rasmussen winds up as a 4th line C, we could have some pretty solid Centers, even if none of them end up elite.

 

[MBH]

Lindstrom will be a capable 6D for a long time, I'm not sure if Tuomisto will even make the NHL yet. I agree that Tuomisto has the better upside, but he's still got a while before he's ready. LA could be competitive pretty soon, depending on how FA goes. I don't hate the value, but I still don't feel as sold on Hronek being in our top 4 long-term, so having a high ceiling guy in a good program appeals to me. Now, if we draft Brandt Clarke, my tune probably changes.

Also, I would argue that Detroit is actually in a pretty good position when it comes to Centers going forward, because Veleno and Niederbach have both shown some pretty positive signs in the SHL (and Allsvenskan) this year. It's still very early to make any kind of realistic projections, but I think Veleno at least has turned a corner in his development and refined his game to be much better at the pro-level; I see some top 6 upside. While Niederbach is simply really exciting because he started so far behind everyone else in his age group but has already made up a ton of ground. And if Rasmussen winds up as a 4th line C, we could have some pretty solid Centers, even if none of them end up elite.

Capable #6 defensemen are pretty much worthless.
If Tuomisto hits his potential, he's a top 4 D with PP upside.

As for our center depth, it's not so hot.
Larkin. Legit top 2C. A 1C when playing well. But probably needs to lighten the load.
Veleno. Maybe a 2C? Maybe a 3C? He's an NHL center. Just not sure how good.
Rasmussen? 4C or 3C. But I'd put him at wing

Say we made this trade...Kupari for Tuomisto + a 3rd or whatever makes it work.
We still have RD of Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom + others.

Here's our potential group in 2 years time
Rasmussen-Veleno-Raymond
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Kupari-Berggren
Smith-whoever-whoever

Johansson-Seider
Hughes (whoever we draft this year)-Hronek
McIsaac (Cholo)-Lindstrom (whoever)

 

[jaster]

This guy looks like a 3rd-line center to me. Veleno most likely a 3rd-line center. Niederbach probably trending more like 3rd-line center for now. That's a lot of 3rd-line centers.

As for Tuomisto, he is still soooooo slow. He needs to learn how to skate before he sniffs the NHL.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Feels like this would be a waste of assets. What differentiates Kupari from Rasmussen, Veleno, Niederbach, etc? He's just a different name. Is Kupari a top 6 capable guy? If not, why are we looking to trade assets for him? The Wings whole problem since Z and Datsyuk fell off is that you have good players being asked to move up the roster too far. If you had a top pairing and DDK was your #3? Your D is awesome. Since you don't, he's dogshit. If you had a real 1C, Larkin would be such a dynamite 2C. So on and so forth. If you had a couple capable bottom pairing Ds, you wouldn't be playing Marc Staal this year or Madison Bowey, Alex Biega, Jonathan Ericsson, etc. last year.

I just don't understand the point of this kind of deal. For LA to be motivated to deal him, you'd have to give them something of value. I don't think Tuomisto + 3rd gets it done. What motivation does LA have to take that?

 

[Shaman464]

Capable #6 defensemen are pretty much worthless.
If Tuomisto hits his potential, he's a top 4 D with PP upside.

As for our center depth, it's not so hot.
Larkin. Legit top 2C. A 1C when playing well. But probably needs to lighten the load.
Veleno. Maybe a 2C? Maybe a 3C? He's an NHL center. Just not sure how good.
Rasmussen? 4C or 3C. But I'd put him at wing

Say we made this trade...Kupari for Tuomisto + a 3rd or whatever makes it work.
We still have RD of Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom + others.

Here's our potential group in 2 years time
Rasmussen-Veleno-Raymond
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Kupari-Berggren
Smith-whoever-whoever

Johansson-Seider
Hughes (whoever we draft this year)-Hronek
McIsaac (Cholo)-Lindstrom (whoever)

Yeah a guy whose never shown great offensive upside at the pro level will be a number 1 C.

 

[Ghost of Ethan Hunt]

Capable #6 defensemen are pretty much worthless.
If Tuomisto hits his potential, he's a top 4 D with PP upside.

As for our center depth, it's not so hot.
Larkin. Legit top 2C. A 1C when playing well. But probably needs to lighten the load.
Veleno. Maybe a 2C? Maybe a 3C? He's an NHL center. Just not sure how good.
Rasmussen? 4C or 3C. But I'd put him at wing

Say we made this trade...Kupari for Tuomisto + a 3rd or whatever makes it work.
We still have RD of Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom + others.

Here's our potential group in 2 years time
Rasmussen-Veleno-Raymond
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Kupari-Berggren
Smith-whoever-whoever

Johansson-Seider
Hughes (whoever we draft this year)-Hronek
McIsaac (Cholo)-Lindstrom (whoever)

Needs more Zadina, or any Zadina on L1...bumps Ras down to L3/L4 depending on Svech & fit. L4 needs Soderblom. I like everything else, hopefully McIsaac can grab that bottom pairing role & have #4 upside at peak.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Larkin is a 2C and Veleno is probably a 3C or 4C. If you believe Veleno is a 3C then no need for Kupari. If you believe Veleno is a 4C then I guess there is a spot for Kupari. I'd imagine the Kings would want an NHL ready D-man so the only guy we could offer who would be enticing would be Hronek. I'm not crazy about trading Hronek, particularly for a 3C. I'd rather move Mantha plus in order to go after a 1C or top 2 D-man.

Just doesn't seem like we would be good trade partners.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Larkin is a 2C and Veleno is probably a 3C or 4C. If you believe Veleno is a 3C then no need for Kupari. If you believe Veleno is a 4C then I guess there is a spot for Kupari. I'd imagine the Kings would want an NHL ready D-man so the only guy we could offer who would be enticing would be Hronek. I'm not crazy about trading Hronek, particularly for a 3C. I'd rather move Mantha plus in order to go after a 1C or top 2 D-man.

Just doesn't seem like we would be good trade partners.

Jesus no. Hronek for a 3c? Hell no. Hell to the no.

 

[Run the Jewels]

Jesus no. Hronek for a 3c? Hell no. Hell to the no.

Agreed, that was my take.

 

[Tetsuo]

Capable #6 defensemen are pretty much worthless.
If Tuomisto hits his potential, he's a top 4 D with PP upside.

As for our center depth, it's not so hot.
Larkin. Legit top 2C. A 1C when playing well. But probably needs to lighten the load.
Veleno. Maybe a 2C? Maybe a 3C? He's an NHL center. Just not sure how good.
Rasmussen? 4C or 3C. But I'd put him at wing

Say we made this trade...Kupari for Tuomisto + a 3rd or whatever makes it work.
We still have RD of Seider, Hronek, Lindstrom + others.

Here's our potential group in 2 years time
Rasmussen-Veleno-Raymond
Bertuzzi-Larkin-Mantha
Svechnikov-Kupari-Berggren
Smith-whoever-whoever

Johansson-Seider
Hughes (whoever we draft this year)-Hronek
McIsaac (Cholo)-Lindstrom (whoever)

Kupari is a depth Centerman on a contending team, which to me is only slightly more valuable than a depth defensemen. Lindstrom looked real steady in his call up last year, and he has the skating to be a high-level shutdown D.

This guy looks like a 3rd-line center to me. Veleno most likely a 3rd-line center. Niederbach probably trending more like 3rd-line center for now. That's a lot of 3rd-line centers.

As for Tuomisto, he is still soooooo slow. He needs to learn how to skate before he sniffs the NHL.

Niederbach is much more in the boom/bust mold. He has serious offensive skill with elite hockey IQ, but he had a devastating knee injury that sidelined him for well over a year. Either his skating and overall game improves enough for him to make the NHL or they don't and he stays in Europe. If he does make the league, he has the passing chops to play on a scoring line.

Agreed that Tuomisto need to improve his skating, but it looks like he is having some success in college this season. Definitely promising news.

Larkin is a 2C and Veleno is probably a 3C or 4C. If you believe Veleno is a 3C then no need for Kupari. If you believe Veleno is a 4C then I guess there is a spot for Kupari. I'd imagine the Kings would want an NHL ready D-man so the only guy we could offer who would be enticing would be Hronek. I'm not crazy about trading Hronek, particularly for a 3C. I'd rather move Mantha plus in order to go after a 1C or top 2 D-man.

Just doesn't seem like we would be good trade partners.

Agreed that we aren't good trade partners with the Kings, unless it is a hockey trade where we trade spare parts for spare parts. But I will say that Mantha is not going to bring back a 1C in a trade. He's a very good RW (when he's motivated), but he's not a good enough player to pry an actual, NHL-caliber 1C from anybody. And that's ignoring any consistency issues he has. It's out of the question.

 

[MBH]

Kupari is a depth Centerman on a contending team, which to me is only slightly more valuable than a depth defensemen. Lindstrom looked real steady in his call up last year, and he has the skating to be a high-level shutdown D.

/QUOTE]

So, Lilja was worth more than Draper?

Lindstrom is nothing special. Good chance he sees the waiver wire sometime soon.

 

[MBH]

Yeah a guy whose never shown great offensive upside at the pro level will be a number 1 C.

Flip the lines? Who gives a f***?
I think his game is more likely to complement the linemates.

 

[MBH]

Feels like this would be a waste of assets. What differentiates Kupari from Rasmussen, Veleno, Niederbach, etc? He's just a different name. Is Kupari a top 6 capable guy? If not, why are we looking to trade assets for him? The Wings whole problem since Z and Datsyuk fell off is that you have good players being asked to move up the roster too far. If you had a top pairing and DDK was your #3? Your D is awesome. Since you don't, he's dogshit. If you had a real 1C, Larkin would be such a dynamite 2C. So on and so forth. If you had a couple capable bottom pairing Ds, you wouldn't be playing Marc Staal this year or Madison Bowey, Alex Biega, Jonathan Ericsson, etc. last year.

I just don't understand the point of this kind of deal. For LA to be motivated to deal him, you'd have to give them something of value. I don't think Tuomisto + 3rd gets it done. What motivation does LA have to take that?

We have no evidence yet that Rasmusen, Veleno, Niederbach are even NHL centers.
Rasmussen is a month shy of 22 and just got demoted to GR.
Veleno has yet to have a really strong year in the pros.
Niderbach is a 19-year-old who was taken 50th and has yet to break into Sweden's top league.

There's no evidence yet that Kupari is some amazing center.
But I think he's a lot like Veleno. He's gong to be an NHL center. The only question is, how good?
He's a great skater, he's 6'1. He's a right handed shot.

You don't understand the point of this kind of deal?
1) We need a center. Kupari is very close to being NHL ready.
2) Kings need defense.

Looking at Depth Charts
Kings don't have much need for Cs.
Wngs don't have much need for RDs.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

So, Lilja was worth more than Draper?

Lindstrom is nothing special. Good chance he sees the waiver wire sometime soon.

Okay, what?
In the late 90s, early 2000s, Kris Draper and the Grind Line started games. Kris Draper and the Grind Line closed out games. He was a "depth centerman" like Luc Robitaille was a third line winger.
Draper was almost 60% on FOs even at the tail end of his career.

But even so... if Lindstrom is nothing special and is waiver-wire fodder... Why are we getting a 3C for him? LA isn't in the market to trade a good player for our garbage just because they don't have a "need" for Cs. Which is complete bunk, because all teams need Cs, all the time. All it takes is one long term injury and all of a sudden that stellar C depth vanishes.

I don't understand the point of LA trading us a worthwhile player for someone you think is trash. I don't understand the point of us sweetening the pot enough to actually land Kupari, because he seems like he would be a redundant piece here. It seems like you'd be trading to get a slightly more developed Veleno when you could just wait like a year and you'd have your own, home-grown, Veleno.

Capable #6 defensemen are pretty much worthless.

Being a Red Wings fan... I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. Maybe it's because you've forgotten what a capable #6 defenseman actually looks like. Our bottom pairing Ds since f***ing Brett Lebda have been AHL fodder. Biega, Ericsson in his last years, Bowey, Staal, Huskins, Daley, Lashoff, Hicketts, Almqvist, Sproul? We've had DOGSHIT on the backend. I'm sure they're all fine human beings, but we have had a substandard NHL backend for years and years and years. If you had a legitimate bottom pairing and the guys playing above them weren't also bottom pairing guys, you'd see how worthwhile it is to have okay players in your 5 and 6 spots.

See VGK and their first year run and continued success in the next year or two after when they had Shea Theodore and Nate Schmidt as their top Ds and a bunch of also-rans (including Jon Merrill, who is, himself, a capable bottom pair D) back there.

 

[MBH]

Okay, what?
In the late 90s, early 2000s, Kris Draper and the Grind Line started games. Kris Draper and the Grind Line closed out games. He was a "depth centerman" like Luc Robitaille was a third line winger.
Draper was almost 60% on FOs even at the tail end of his career.

But even so... if Lindstrom is nothing special and is waiver-wire fodder... Why are we getting a 3C for him? LA isn't in the market to trade a good player for our garbage just because they don't have a "need" for Cs. Which is complete bunk, because all teams need Cs, all the time. All it takes is one long term injury and all of a sudden that stellar C depth vanishes.

I don't understand the point of LA trading us a worthwhile player for someone you think is trash. I don't understand the point of us sweetening the pot enough to actually land Kupari, because he seems like he would be a redundant piece here. It seems like you'd be trading to get a slightly more developed Veleno when you could just wait like a year and you'd have your own, home-grown, Veleno.



Being a Red Wings fan... I have no idea how you come to this conclusion. Maybe it's because you've forgotten what a capable #6 defenseman actually looks like. Our bottom pairing Ds since f***ing Brett Lebda have been AHL fodder. Biega, Ericsson in his last years, Bowey, Staal, Huskins, Daley, Lashoff, Hicketts, Almqvist, Sproul? We've had DOGSHIT on the backend. I'm sure they're all fine human beings, but we have had a substandard NHL backend for years and years and years. If you had a legitimate bottom pairing and the guys playing above them weren't also bottom pairing guys, you'd see how worthwhile it is to have okay players in your 5 and 6 spots.

See VGK and their first year run and continued success in the next year or two after when they had Shea Theodore and Nate Schmidt as their top Ds and a bunch of also-rans (including Jon Merrill, who is, himself, a capable bottom pair D) back there.

Kupari is still a prospect. He's not a 2-3C yet.
That's his potential.
Look at LA's system.
Look at their depth charts.

Look at our depth charts.

We're trading a prospect D for a prospect C. Kupari is further along and a higher pick, so I'd offer more.

The problem with our team isn't that our #6 defenseman isn't as good as most teams #6 defenseman.
Anyone who thinks our #6 defenseman is the problem has no idea what it takes to have a winning roster.
The problem is our #1 is nowhere near other team's #1.
Same with #2.
And #3. And #4.
Problem is, we're playing 6 third pairing-level defensemen.
DJoos. Stecher. Staal. Merrill. Unhealthy Dekeyser. Nemeth.
If one of these guys was on our roster as our #6, we'd be OK.
If we had 3 other legit top 4 defensemen to go with Hronek, we could have a third pairing of Staal/Stecher without much issue.

Why do we have so many third pairing dmen? Because they're a dime a dozen.
If Lindstrom's upside is a #6, he has very little trade value.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Kupari is still a prospect. He's not a 2-3C yet.
That's his potential.
Look at LA's system.
Look at their depth charts.

Look at our depth charts.

We're trading a prospect D for a prospect C. Kupari is further along and a higher pick, so I'd offer more.

The problem with our team isn't that our #6 defenseman isn't as good as most teams #6 defenseman.
Anyone who thinks our #6 defenseman is the problem has no idea what it takes to have a winning roster.
The problem is our #1 is nowhere near other team's #1.
Same with #2.
And #3. And #4.
Problem is, we're playing 6 third pairing-level defensemen.
DJoos. Stecher. Staal. Merrill. Unhealthy Dekeyser. Nemeth.
If one of these guys was on our roster as our #6, we'd be OK.
If we had 3 other legit top 4 defensemen to go with Hronek, we could have a third pairing of Staal/Stecher without much issue.

Why do we have so many third pairing dmen? Because they're a dime a dozen.
If Lindstrom's upside is a #6, he has very little trade value.

So why is LA giving us something good for him?

 

[jaster]

The problem with our team isn't that our #6 defenseman isn't as good as most teams #6 defenseman.
Anyone who thinks our #6 defenseman is the problem has no idea what it takes to have a winning roster.
The problem is our #1 is nowhere near other team's #1.
Same with #2.
And #3. And #4.
Problem is, we're playing 6 third pairing-level defensemen.

The problem is the same with our top-6 center situation. We have a bunch of middle-6/3rd-line center types in the prospect pipeline. We need more clear-cut top-6 center prospects. Kupari is not that. If we want to pursue skilled centers, we should be thinking bigger. The flip side of that of course is that teams are normally very reluctant to trade top-6 centers/prospects.