Trade Rumors and Proposals: "Keep your friends close but your enemies closer" version

[MiamiScreamingEagles]

The prior thread has been closed.

Part 1 is here: http://hfboards.mandatory.com/showthread.php?t=2354433&page=41

Click to read more...

 

[Rebels57]

Replying to last comment in first thread..

The Flyers were already much better 5v5 after adding Filppula and promoting Weal.

Adding all the kids in place of bums like VdV, Streit, etc will only make us even better.

My only concern is goaltending for now.

 

[Richards18Forever]

I like the idea of flurry for a couple years depending on the price from Vegas and that amac is apart of the deal. wouldn't mind signing Girard to a dirt cheap two year contract but is rather trade some of our excess forwards for a solid bottom pair veteran dman.
next two and a half weeks will be interesting.

 

[Flyers Time]

Does Weal have to sign today for protection in expansion draft ?

 

[Jtown]

it makes no sense imo to do anything that makes us a better team in the next few years. We are not cup contenders these next couple of years. What would be the best case scenario is that we slowing bring up Sanheim and morin, and a a few forwards while continuing to acquire high picks and then hopefully in 3 years we are ready to roll.

 

[Richards18Forever]

I feel like next year should be our year to really go after it. flip, read, umberger off the top of my head. their cap will all be gone.

 

[Prongo]

it makes no sense imo to do anything that makes us a better team in the next few years. We are not cup contenders these next couple of years. What would be the best case scenario is that we slowing bring up Sanheim and morin, and a a few forwards while continuing to acquire high picks and then hopefully in 3 years we are ready to roll.

Three years is much too late. Sanheim and Morin aren't going to be thrown in as teenagers. They are already slowly developed. In three years they should be pretty established. Shoot I think the season after next they should be pretty established. It's why Hextall likes to slow cook them already. If they make the team they are in a top 4 role more than likely.

Three years is also long to wait for Giroux and Voracek. We keep acting like this team has all the time in the world but there is a realistic window here.

If you can improve the team long term right now by adding a player you have to think about it. Hextall can't keep waiting around unless the pressure for him to build a competitive hockey team will mount from all over.

 

[hatcher]

Three years is much too late. Sanheim and Morin aren't going to be thrown in as teenagers. They are already slowly developed. In three years they should be pretty established. Shoot I think the season after next they should be pretty established. It's why Hextall likes to slow cook them already. If they make the team they are in a top 4 role more than likely.

Three years is also long to wait for Giroux and Voracek. We keep acting like this team has all the time in the world but there is a realistic window here.

If you can improve the team long term right now by adding a player you have to think about it. Hextall can't keep waiting around unless the pressure for him to build a competitive hockey team will mount from all over.

as much as I **** on the core I feel bad for them as all Hexy is doing is bringing in rookies and not much else. They need established help also.

 

[Flyers Time]

What time is trade freeZe today ?

 

[Tripod]

We are a good Dman and solid goaltending away from having a good year IMO.

I have been hoping Hextall will be able to shake something out with expansion happening. We shall see.

 

[Tripod]

What time is trade freeZe today ?

I read it was tomorrow:

"Saturday, June 17

The deadline for trading or signing players is 3 p.m. EST, except for Vegas."

http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-trade-free-agency-expansion-entry-draft-dates/

 

[Curufinwe]

Does Weal have to sign today for protection in expansion draft ?

You can protect a UFA, it just doesn't make sense to do so over Raffl, Laughton, Cousins, or Bellemare. Then you run the risk of losing Raffl to Vegas and Weal as a free agent - which would be the worst possible outcome.

The deadline is actually 3pm tomorrow. I've had this page in a browser tab all week.

https://www.nhl.com/news/nhl-expansion-draft-critical-dates/c-289723278

Saturday, June 17 - Commencement of the Expansion Draft Trade/Waiver Freeze for all NHL Clubs with exception of the Expansion Club (3 p.m. ET).

Commencement of Expansion Draft Signing Moratorium on NHL SPCs for all NHL Clubs with exception of the Expansion Club (3 p.m. ET).

 

[Flyers Time]

I read it was tomorrow:

"Saturday, June 17

The deadline for trading or signing players is 3 p.m. EST, except for Vegas."

http://thehockeywriters.com/nhl-trade-free-agency-expansion-entry-draft-dates/

Meltzer said 12pm today for anyone not trading with Vegas .

 

[Curufinwe]

Three years is much too late. Sanheim and Morin aren't going to be thrown in as teenagers. They are already slowly developed. In three years they should be pretty established. Shoot I think the season after next they should be pretty established. It's why Hextall likes to slow cook them already. If they make the team they are in a top 4 role more than likely.

Three years is an eternity in the NHL.

The idea of the Flyers tanking the rest of the decade while the contracts of Schenn and Simmonds run out and Giroux & Voracek become 30-somethings is completely ludicrous

 

[Curufinwe]

Meltzer said 12pm today for anyone not trading with Vegas .

He got that off Dave Isaac, who is clueless.

 

[Psuhockey]

Replying to last comment in first thread..

The Flyers were already much better 5v5 after adding Filppula and promoting Weal.
mama iw
Adding all the kids in place of bums like VdV, Streit, etc will only make us even better.

My only concern is goaltending for now.

Jordan Weal played 23 NHL games last year and shot 16.3 percent. http://www.hockey-reference.com/leaders/shot_pct_active.html To sum up that link, its not sustainable. The previous 14 NHL games he played the year before he scored 0 points. So the production isn't a given.

Now Weals possession stats were great so there is hope there but on the opposite end, Filppula's were
Vandevelde level awful. http://www.hockey-reference.com/teams/PHI/2017.html. He will also be a year older at 33.

I have seen previous Flyers late season runs not translate to the next season so I am not going to put stock into last year's either way. What I will put stock into is Hakstol making questionable lineup decisions, playing MacDonald as a top pair defenseman, and a core that struggles to score at even strength for the last 3 years. If you feel that the rookies, Weal, and Filppula will fix even strength scoring, I will take the leap of faith on that one. But what about Hakstol's lineups and MacDonald getting the 2nd most average minutes a game of any defenseman on the roster? Do you see those issues being fixed?

 

[deadhead]

It's not all or nothing the next few years.

Until the Flyers find that young franchise goalie, they'll only advance deep in the playoffs off a veteran's goalie's hot streak, like Neuvirth against the Nats, a better team could have stole that series behind his play.

Meantime, the team should improve each season the next few years as kids come up and are integrated into the team. The idea they have a window built around Giroux and Voracek is silly, it's not like they've done anything the last five years with those two. The future of the this team is the stream of young players coming up, the old core will provide solid depth and trade bait. The old core will slowly decline but not as fast as the young newcomers improve.

They'll be able to roll three lines and a solid 4th line each season, some names may change but the talent depth should remain. It's far more like that Simmonds and/or Voracek will be traded than a young prospect, both are past their peak age. Over the next three years a half dozen young forwards will join the NHL roster (Rubtsov, Vorobyov, AK, Allison, Bunnyman, MV, Kase, etc) in addition to #2 and Lindblom this year.

Same on defense, with the steady stream of young defensemen, MacDonald and Manning will be pushed out. Eventually Hextall will have to decide who to extend and who to trade, but that's two to three years away.

Meanwhile, the team should improve each season, so I see no urgency to make a trade for a veteran. More likely will be a trade to clear out excess talent (that you'd lose to the cap or roster limits or as UFAs) by trading volume for quality, but that could take many forms, including veterans, prospects and draft picks.

 

[deadhead]

I have seen previous Flyers late season runs not translate to the next season so I am not going to put stock into last year's either way. What I will put stock into is Hakstol making questionable lineup decisions, playing MacDonald as a top pair defenseman, and a core that struggles to score at even strength for the last 3 years. If you feel that the rookies, Weal, and Filppula will fix even strength scoring, I will take the leap of faith on that one. But what about Hakstol's lineups and MacDonald getting the 2nd most average minutes a game of any defenseman on the roster? Do you see those issues being fixed?

The Hakstol schtick has gotten old, still complaining about Hakstol playing "the tallest midget." Hextall has cleared out MDZ, Streit and Schultz, and MacDonald will be gone when he figures out how to move him at little cost in assets. When people are complaining about playing VdV over Luby, they're really complaining about the lack of depth, not the coach (i.e., "much ado about nothing.").

The key with Weal and Filpulla wasn't their play, but the ability to roll three lines that could actually play. Whether Weal returns or not, they will have three solid lines this season:
Weise - Couts - Schenn
Konency - Filpulla - Simmonds
Lindblom - G - V
And a fourth line of:
Laughton/Cousins/Raffl - #2/MV/PEB - PEB/Read
which will be a substantial improvement over last year

Same on defense, even if MacDonald were to play:
Provorov - MacDonald
Ghost - Gudas
Morin - Hagg/Sanheim
is a far more talented group than last season, and by spring, should be more effective as the kids get some experience.

2018-19: we add AK, Vorobyov, Myers, Friedman
2019-20: we add Rubtsov, LeBerge?, Bunnyman?, ???
and so on. For the next few years, each September should see 3-4 prospects in camp with a year or more of AHL play under their belts.

 

[Psuhockey]

The Hakstol schtick has gotten old, still complaining about Hakstol playing "the tallest midget." Hextall has cleared out MDZ, Streit and Schultz, and MacDonald will be gone when he figures out how to move him at little cost in assets. When people are complaining about playing VdV over Luby, they're really complaining about the lack of depth, not the coach (i.e., "much ado about nothing.").

The key with Weal and Filpulla wasn't their play, but the ability to roll three lines that could actually play. Whether Weal returns or not, they will have three solid lines this season:
Weise - Couts - Schenn
Konency - Filpulla - Simmonds
Lindblom - G - V
And a fourth line of:
Laughton/Cousins/Raffl - #2/MV/PEB - PEB/Read
which will be a substantial improvement over last year

Same on defense, even if MacDonald were to play:
Provorov - MacDonald
Ghost - Gudas
Morin - Hagg/Sanheim
is a far more talented group than last season, and by spring, should be more effective as the kids get some experience.

2018-19: we add AK, Vorobyov, Myers, Friedman
2019-20: we add Rubtsov, LeBerge?, Bunnyman?, ???
and so on. For the next few years, each September should see 3-4 prospects in camp with a year or more of AHL play under their belts.

So playing the worse goaltender at a critical part of the year is not an issue?

 

[Jtown]

Three years is much too late. Sanheim and Morin aren't going to be thrown in as teenagers. They are already slowly developed. In three years they should be pretty established. Shoot I think the season after next they should be pretty established. It's why Hextall likes to slow cook them already. If they make the team they are in a top 4 role more than likely.

Three years is also long to wait for Giroux and Voracek. We keep acting like this team has all the time in the world but there is a realistic window here.

If you can improve the team long term right now by adding a player you have to think about it. Hextall can't keep waiting around unless the pressure for him to build a competitive hockey team will mount from all over.

3 years is too long to wait if you believe we win a cup with giroux and voracek being top line players on this team. I on the other hand do not belive that is the case. Giroux is regressing and has been regressing for 3 years. The writing is on the wall, and if it wasnt i believe you would see hexy make more win now moves.

I dont think we are winning a cup with giroux and voracek, two declining players taking up 16.5 million of our cap. I pray hexy has the balls to do what homer did but personally i dont think any team would even be willing to part with good pieces for giroux.

The flyers are split into 3 age ranges.


Giroux, simmer, Voracek

5 year gap schenn is kind of an outlier.


Coots laughton ghost stolarz

1 year gap

Provy sanheim morin hagg 2nd overall rubstov lindblom konecny


look at where this team's talent is concentrated.

I much rather proceed with coots, laughton, ghost, and stolarz , and schenn being the oldest players on our team than G S and V.

 

[Curufinwe]

Do people still really think it was a coincidence that Neuvirth got most of the starts in February, then got a new contract on March 1st? That has Hextall's fingerprints all over it.

 

[WIP CALLER]

So playing the worse goaltender at a critical part of the year is not an issue?

it really isn't even worth responding to him. hakstol could put out bellamare, vdv, MacDonald, manning, and schultz as the number 1 powerplay and he would find an excuse to defend it.

 

[Larry44]

3 years is too long to wait if you believe we win a cup with giroux and voracek being top line players on this team. I on the other hand do not belive that is the case. Giroux is regressing and has been regressing for 3 years. The writing is on the wall, and if it wasnt i believe you would see hexy make more win now moves.

I dont think we are winning a cup with giroux and voracek, two declining players taking up 16.5 million of our cap. I pray hexy has the balls to do what homer did but personally i dont think any team would even be willing to part with good pieces for giroux.

-----

I much rather proceed with coots, laughton, ghost, and stolarz , and schenn being the oldest players on our team than G S and V.

I don't care if we get ANY return for Giroux, we need to ditch that contract. Keep Voracek, he at least has maintained his size, speed and health. Perhaps his game will return. Trade Giroux to Ottawa for Phaneuf, Colin White and a pick.

 

[deadhead]

I dismiss those complaints because they're BS.
They boil down to playing MacDonald over Streit, MDZ, Manning or Schulz and playing VdV over Luby or Cousins on the 4th line.
As if either decision had close to the impact of subpar goaltending.
Which is why I call the complaints "much ado about nothing."

The problem last season was talent, when Weal came up and they acquired Filpulla, they scored at a higher rate - amazing what adding talent can do! Coaches are constrained by their talent, when Hakstol had them start the season with D-men being aggressive, they scored a lot, but the combination of defensive breakdowns and bad goalie play meant they lost a lot of shootouts - so he had them play more conservatively which killed the offense but kept them in games - damned if you do, damned if you don't. You can't run a scheme that your players lack the talent to execute.

Fans always want a coach to make a "silk purse out of a sow's ear."
As Lavi shows, give a coach bad talent and he becomes a dunce, give him a team with good talent and he's once again a genius. Lavi's scheme didn't work when the talent base eroded five years ago, was it the coach or the players?

Hextall chose the coach, which means he choose the scheme, now he's choosing the players to execute the scheme - mobile defensemen and faster, defensively responsible forwards. He didn't want Hakstol to install a conservative scheme to protect mediocre players, he wants Hakstol to install an aggressive scheme and then get the players to run it. My prediction is that this team will look more like the one we saw in last October, hopefully with better defense and better goaltending. I think Hextall wants that aggressive attack fueled by talented offensive defensemen and forwards who know when to cycle to prevent breakaways.

Give Hakstol (Lavi) the players to operate their scheme, then if it doesn't work, fire them. But first get the players. Holmgren fired Lavi b/c he couldn't get the players so it was easier to get rid of the coach.

 

[deadhead]

As far as goaltending, Mason was the real issue.
If you play him, he wears down and whines that he was overused.
If you rotate him, he becomes inconsistent and whines that he should be the #1.
If you shoot him, you get 20 to life.