HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #87: 2024 Season Finale

417

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Can the other team's #1 D actually play defense or is it Matheson level defense?
Firstly, while I don't think Matheson's defense is in the elite category...he's certainly not nearly as bad as most Habs fans think he is.

He plays 25 mins a game and has done so on a bottom 5 team throughout his time here, he's going to be on the ice for some goals against, especially because he has the puck so much trying to create.

But i'm sorry, trading Mike Matheson for a 15th overall is a ridiculous return for him.
 

Habs Halifax

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They bring nothing we can not develop #1 and #2 I'd rather get another lottery pick than make the playoffs with those 2. It would just yield some average pick with 2 contracts we'd want to get rid of. No thanks.

Now if playoffs are in sight, I don't mind, but it's Sid that I want to go after. :nod:

At least, we'd want to resign him for sure.

Fair. I was not desperate to make those signings but curious to see what our fan base would say if we did.

I'm sure Hughes will look to add to this roster but he's also not desperate.
 

417

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Yes for the 15oa is clearly not enough, all though he wouldn’t be the #1 Dmen on a contending team
Clearly not, but he is on the Habs...so the value has to match that.

Suzuki wouldn't be a #1C on a contending team either, does that mean the Habs would trade him for the return of a #2C? Of course not.
 
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Habs Halifax

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Firstly, while I don't think Matheson's defense is in the elite category...he's certainly not nearly as bad as most Habs fans think he is.

He plays 25 mins a game and has done so on a bottom 5 team throughout his time here, he's going to be on the ice for some goals against, especially because he has the puck so much trying to create.

But i'm sorry, trading Mike Matheson for a 15th overall is a ridiculous return for him.

Agreed. He's not the physical type in his own end but his defensive struggles are being exaggerated for some reason. He's certainly just as good as Rielly is for the Leafs in his own zone. Sergachev with Tampa is not a beast in his own zone either.

Matheson more than makes up his value with his puck movement and ability to QB a PP. He's on a value contract and produced 62 pts with 11 goals.

When I look at this list (Pts/game over the last two seasons), Matheson is comparable in the D zone to many of them.

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Saundies

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Firstly, while I don't think Matheson's defense is in the elite category...he's certainly not nearly as bad as most Habs fans think he is.

He plays 25 mins a game and has done so on a bottom 5 team throughout his time here, he's going to be on the ice for some goals against, especially because he has the puck so much trying to create.

But i'm sorry, trading Mike Matheson for a 15th overall is a ridiculous return for him.
He is every bit as bad as fans think. I'd argue worse, but people would just assume I'm a hater.

On a better team, he would be benched for his mistakes. We let him run wild because we're in 27th last. The amount of goals against/games this guy cost us this year alone trying to do it all himself is insane.

I would easily trade 10-15 of his pts for replacement-level NHL defense.
 

417

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He is every bit as bad as fans think. I'd argue worse, but people would just assume I'm a hater.
Agree to disagree I suppose.
On a better team, he would be benched for his mistakes. We let him run wild because we're in 27th last. The amount of goals against/games this guy cost us this year alone trying to do it all himself is insane.

I would easily trade 10-15 of his pts for replacement-level NHL defense.
You're clearly not a fan of the player and that's fine...I won't ever call him a top pairing guy and he's clearly sitting in a chair he's not suited for.

But I also think he's become quite underrated and most of all, underappreciated.
 

Saundies

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Agree to disagree I suppose.

You're clearly not a fan of the player and that's fine...I won't ever call him a top pairing guy and he's clearly sitting in a chair he's not suited for.

But I also think he's become quite underrated and most of all, underappreciated.
I'm not a fan of him, I will admit it. I don't understand this narrative of "He'll help mentor the kids!"... mentor them to do what, not make simple plays, cough pucks up, and scoop them out of our net when the other team scores?

Obviously he can have great offensive instincts. I've posted in PGTs and his own thread that he's scored some goals this year that no one in our lineup is even capable of doing. But I find the casual fan (not calling you this or saying that automatically if you're a fan of MM that you're casual) looks at his stats and automatically assumes that he's an amazing player. The reality as I see it is that he's very good going one way and pretty brutal going the other way. And when the position you play involves a lot of you being at least passable going that other way, that's where I have a problem.

There was an interview with Xhekaj got sent down earlier this year and he specifically mentioned Matheson as getting a lot of rope because he produces points, so he felt he had to work on that part of his game as well to start getting some more rope. That really bothered me, because it shows even guys on the team notice the lack of accountability concerning him when he makes a bonehead play.
 

Habs Halifax

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He is every bit as bad as fans think. I'd argue worse, but people would just assume I'm a hater.

On a better team, he would be benched for his mistakes. We let him run wild because we're in 27th last. The amount of goals against/games this guy cost us this year alone trying to do it all himself is insane.

I would easily trade 10-15 of his pts for replacement-level NHL defense.

Nah, he's not as bad in his own zone like that. Maybe a few years ago when he was in the age 23-27 age range yeah. But give credit where it's due... he's improved at both ends with MSL.

His giveaways/60 is comparable to Bouchard, Letang, Rielly.
 

pepperMonkey

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Because:

- He’s at his peak value on the market
- He’s at a postion where we have young guys ready to take bigger minutes
- Go get a need with his value
Err...I thought a vet D that can munch minutes, protect young D's, and help develop said young D's was an actual need for us...
 

Vachon23

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Err...I thought a vet D that can munch minutes, protect young D's, and help develop said young D's was an actual need for us...
Not when that vet makes more mistakes then the young Dmen and we can still get a short term gap
on the RD to take that role.

We have major need to get a top 6 young forward, if Matheson can get you that, do it
 

Mrb1p

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Nah, he's not as bad in his own zone like that. Maybe a few years ago when he was in the age 23-27 age range yeah. But give credit where it's due... he's improved at both ends with MSL.

His giveaways/60 is comparable to Bouchard, Letang, Rielly.
Bouchard is godawful defensively, Letang is done and good for retirement and Rielly is also pretty bad. Horrible argument.

Matheson IS bad defensively. He makes 2-3 fatal mistakes every game because he's so slanted on offense for some reason. We gotta stop trying to rewrite reality, I've literally tracked every mistakes he made in the GDTs, there's not a single game where he wasn't at the very least directly responsible for a chance against and a good majority of games he was directly responsible for a goal against. He's flashy and a beautiful player and he will score a beautiful goal every two or three weeks, but on a day to day he's absolutely dreadful.
 

Jaynki

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Apparently we are interested in Maxim Tsypalov. According to Friedman, our FO even met with him,

A KHL 6ft3 190lbs KHL winger. Scored 31 goals in 65 games last season.

Might be a good presence on our bottom 6, from the small amount of information i have been able to gather he appears to play physical.
 

417

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I'm not a fan of him, I will admit it. I don't understand this narrative of "He'll help mentor the kids!"... mentor them to do what, not make simple plays, cough pucks up, and scoop them out of our net when the other team scores?
Yeah i'm not sure about the mentorship angle either, I think most players actually don't want to be mentors if anything. But for me it's more about his value as a contributor on this team, he does jumpstart a lot of our offense and again, although he's no defensive stalwart, his skating enables him to cover a lot of ground defensively.

To me there's a lot of value in that for the continued development of the players we currently have. I don't think there's anyone on the roster right now whose capable of doing what he does on the ice at this stage of their careers.

Of course, you hope one day Hutson/Mailloux/Reinbacher can bring some of the elements that Matheson has but in a more "holistic" way, but what are you telling Suzuki, Caufield, Slaf, Dach, Newhook and any other player this team is building, by taking away one of it's prime offensive weapons?


Obviously he can have great offensive instincts. I've posted in PGTs and his own thread that he's scored some goals this year that no one in our lineup is even capable of doing. But I find the casual fan (not calling you this or saying that automatically if you're a fan of MM that you're casual) looks at his stats and automatically assumes that he's an amazing player. The reality as I see it is that he's very good going one way and pretty brutal going the other way. And when the position you play involves a lot of you being at least passable going that other way, that's where I have a problem.
To me it's just what he brings and what he does, has a certain value...and that value is very high. So when I read that someone would trade him for a mid round 1st round pick, it's a head scratcher to me.

And I wouldn't call myself a "fan" per se, like you, I think there's some holes in his game but I do think he's gotten much better as a complete player. The player I thought we were acquiring when we traded for him and the player he is today (at least IMO) is totally different.

So again, i'm not opposed to trading him...I just think he's worth more than what's being tossed around here. There aren't a lot of dmen in the NHL who can skate and do the things he does offensively (not withstanding his defensive lapses).
There was an interview with Xhekaj got sent down earlier this year and he specifically mentioned Matheson as getting a lot of rope because he produces points, so he felt he had to work on that part of his game as well to start getting some more rope. That really bothered me, because it shows even guys on the team notice the lack of accountability concerning him when he makes a bonehead play.
I think it's normal that guys who produce offensively, tend to get more rope. But that's probably got more to do with Matheson's standing as a veteran more than anything.
 

Habs Halifax

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Bouchard is godawful defensively, Letang is done and good for retirement and Rielly is also pretty bad. Horrible argument.

Matheson IS bad defensively. He makes 2-3 fatal mistakes every game because he's so slanted on offense for some reason. We gotta stop trying to rewrite reality, I've literally tracked every mistakes he made in the GDTs, there's not a single game where he wasn't at the very least directly responsible for a chance against and a good majority of games he was directly responsible for a goal against. He's flashy and a beautiful player and he will score a beautiful goal every two or three weeks, but on a day to day he's absolutely dreadful.

These types are out there but he's not as bad as some are exaggerating.

One area I'd like to dig into more is giveaways/60. All of Kova, Matheson, Savard, Guhle, Xhekaj, Barron are in the top 20 over the last two seasons (min 50 games). That needs more focus and it's deeper than just Matheson.
 

Jaynki

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Bouchard is godawful defensively, Letang is done and good for retirement and Rielly is also pretty bad. Horrible argument.

Matheson IS bad defensively. He makes 2-3 fatal mistakes every game because he's so slanted on offense for some reason. We gotta stop trying to rewrite reality, I've literally tracked every mistakes he made in the GDTs, there's not a single game where he wasn't at the very least directly responsible for a chance against and a good majority of games he was directly responsible for a goal against. He's flashy and a beautiful player and he will score a beautiful goal every two or three weeks, but on a day to day he's absolutely dreadful.
He does not fit the bill of a true number 1D but he is an awesome defenseman to have even with the dreadful mistakes he constantly makes. A nice veteran presence, lot of stamina and can play big big minutes in still a high quality fashion. I do agree tho that in a better world he don't play against enemy team top lines night in and night out.
 
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Mrb1p

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Not when that vet makes more mistakes then the young Dmen and we can still get a short term gap
on the RD to take that role.

We have major need to get a top 6 young forward, if Matheson can get you that, do it
Or if the money saved on Matheson can get you Pesce, Roy, Tanev, Montour, Demelo, Walker, Carrier, Miller, Chatfield or Desharnais.
 

Nico Cauzuki

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I got news for you - they better start competing next year - the honeymoon is over.

You don't go from bottom five to Stanley Cup. There is a natural progression.
- Challange for playoffs
- Make playoffs
- Lose a couple of years in 1st or 2nd round
- Start being a real contender for Cup

Without vets like Matheson - you never get to step 1. As Miller said, like Buffalo, Senators, Wings you are perpetually in non playoff mode.
We are far from competing for anything besides a wild card spot Matheson is nothing special yes he had a good season offensively but hes a mess defensively if a team is willing to overpay for him i would not hesitate to ship him away we already have our 3 LDs for next year in Guhle,Xhekaj and Harris they are not rookies anymore its time for all of them to step it up

We are atleast 3 years away from competing for a cup and by then Matheson wont be with us im not talking about forcing a trade for him but if a team is willing to overpay then yes i woudlnt hesitate to trade him hes not a #1 or #2 def
 
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Mrb1p

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He does not fit the bill of a true number 1D but he is an awesome defenseman to have even with the dreadful mistakes he constantly makes. A nice veteran presence, lot of stamina and can play big big minutes in still a high quality fashion. I do agree tho that in a better world he don't play against enemy team top lines night in and night out.
In a better world he's giving up a goal a game on the Leafs instead of the Habs and we laugh at him because he's exactly their type of player.

You don't win with this type of player.

We are far from competing for anything besides a wild card spot Matheson is nothing special yes he had a good season offensively but hes a mess defensively if a team is willing to overpay for him i would not hesitate to ship him away we already have our 3 LDs for next year in Guhle,Xhekaj and Harris they are not rookies anymore its time for all of them to step it up

We are atleast 3 years away from competing for a cup and by then Matheson wont be with us im not talking about forcing a trade for him but if a team is willing to overpay then yes i woudlnt hesitate to trade him hes not a #1 or #2 def
He's not even a #3 and I hesitate to say he's a #4.
 

417

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Bouchard is godawful defensively, Letang is done and good for retirement and Rielly is also pretty bad. Horrible argument.

Matheson IS bad defensively. He makes 2-3 fatal mistakes every game because he's so slanted on offense for some reason. We gotta stop trying to rewrite reality, I've literally tracked every mistakes he made in the GDTs, there's not a single game where he wasn't at the very least directly responsible for a chance against and a good majority of games he was directly responsible for a goal against. He's flashy and a beautiful player and he will score a beautiful goal every two or three weeks, but on a day to day he's absolutely dreadful.
Maybe it's a question of perception because while all of this may or may not be true (you really tracked his every mistake? My gosh lol).

I know exactly what type of Dman he is, he's risky and he's going to force the issue at times and turn the puck over as a result.

I have never, ever thought of him as Scott Niedermayer...so i'm perfectly fine given the context of this team that's he's mostly there, purely for his offense.
 
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Deebs

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You don't win with this type of player.


He's not even a #3 and I hesitate to say he's a #4.
3 and 4 are the same thing....2nd pairing defensemen. Matty definitely is a 2nd paring D man and if we didn't have such a shortage of quality defensemen over the past couple of years, that's probably where he would be playing.

Ideally this year, Guhle is given some additional responsibilities while Matheson has a few removed. If Guhle is once again asked to play out of position on the right side, then I can't see things changing much with respect to Matheson.
 

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