HF Habs: Trade Proposal Thread #87: 2024 Season Finale

[MarkovsKnee]

OK, more like "compete". When you compete, you will often take more penalties than if you just go through motions.

Example:
Caufield prior to this year - 143 games and 14 PIM
This year, more engaged - 82 games and 16 PIM

Pims have nothing to do with toughness or competing. It's usually to do with not using your stick correctly (highstick, hooking, slashing) or being stupid (roughing, spearing, unsportsmanlike conduct, charging, hitting from behind).

 

[Pat Riot]

Pims have nothing to do with toughness or competing. It's usually to do with not using your stick correctly (highstick, hooking, slashing) or being stupid (roughing, spearing, unsportsmanlike conduct, charging, hitting from behind).

To be fair it does for the toughness part. You will never say the lady bing trophy winner is a tough player.

 

[bud12]

You know the league is soft when you think Zegras is tough.

 

[Scriptor]

Pims have nothing to do with toughness or competing. It's usually to do with not using your stick correctly (highstick, hooking, slashing) or being stupid (roughing, spearing, unsportsmanlike conduct, charging, hitting from behind).

Or plain lazy with the hooking calls...

 

[BaseballCoach]

"At almost any cost"

Really?

That seems like an exaggeration.

IIRC there were many (legitimate imo) suggestions that he wasn't a good target at any realistic cost the yotes might consider, which is a different perspective all together

For some, I agree, but others were opposed due to the cap hit and his perceived negatives, which i listed off my memory hat.

As usual in this perverse HF world, you can get a majority to oppose almost any move. Those who think a move is not good enough will oppose it, and those who think it will work too well (too soon) might oppose it because they are tankers.

 

[themilosh]

To be fair it does for the toughness part. You will never say the lady bing trophy winner is a tough player.

I rather think of Gentlemanly play represents that of toughness but with respect to your opponent.

I think every Lady Byng winner is absolutely tough.

 

[Scintillating10]

You know the league is soft when you think Zegras is tough.

Basu was on 690 yesterday. He said if Zegras is available the Habs will go after him. He expects Habs to be aggressive this summer.

Basu said way Hughes talks he expects Montreal to take step up this off season. He thinks Montreal will add a goal scorer. Plus get more physical and help their specialty teams.

 

[BaseballCoach]

Basu was on 690 yesterday. He said if Zegras is available the Habs will go after him. He expects Habs to be aggressive this summer.

Basu said way Hughes talks he expects Montreal to take step up this off season. He thinks Montreal will add a goal scorer. Plus get more physical and help their special teams.

Some are happy to hear this, but many others hear the very same words and they think this means that every player Hugo target must be in the mold of Gordie Howe.

On top of that, the modern-day Howe must be willing to play for below market value, and be the right age. Having to be the right age excludes anyone on a bridge contract, because if they are as good as we want them to be, they will ask for more money than we think they are worth (now). It also excludes anyone over 25 who needs a long-term deal because that would put them in the old-age home by the end of their deal, just when we might start to compete (i.e. 2031 or 2032)

The opposing GMs must be willing to trade these proven, complete players for draft picks no better than late first rounders (never again overpay like we did for an incomplete player like Newhook). They must also salivate for those youngsters whom we have decided will probably never be core players for us, and thus we are willing to include. If that does not satisfy the GM on the other side of the table, Montreal is only allowed to sweeten the deal with players 30 and up whose contracts we all here agree are too rich and too long.

Oh, one more thing. These studs coming in must not improve the team enough to cause us to draft worse than top-5, until and unless we are ready with a serious shot at winning the Cup, which must apparently be overnight at some point.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Some are happy to hear this, but many others hear the very same words and they think this means that every player Hugo target must be in the mold of Gordie Howe.

On top of that, the modern-day Howe must be willing to play for below market value, and be the right age. Having to be the right age excludes anyone on a bridge contract, because if they are as good as we want them to be, they will ask for more money than we think they are worth (now). It also excludes anyone over 25 who needs a long-term deal because that would put them in the old-age home by the end of their deal, just when we might start to compete (i.e. 2031 or 2032)

The opposing GMs must be willing to trade these proven, complete players for draft picks no better than late first rounders (never again overpay like we did for an incomplete player like Newhook). They must also value salivate for those youngsters whom we have decided will probably never be core players for us, and thus we are willing to include. If that does not satisfy the GM on the other side of the table, Montreal is only allowed to sweeten the deal with players 30 and up whose contracts we all here agree are too rich and too long.

Oh, one more thing. These studs coming in must not improve the team enough to cause us to draft worse than top-5, until and unless we are ready with a serious shot at winning the Cup, which must apparently be overnight at some point.

You’re mislabelling a lot of people in this post. A lot of people simply don’t think Zegras is good enough to warrant paying a premium on threw a trade and new inevitable expensive contract. It’s really not that deep.

 

[Pat Riot]

I rather think of Gentlemanly play represents that of toughness but with respect to your opponent.

I think every Lady Byng winner is absolutely tough.

Thats lovely. Very poetic. But in all seriousness when I think of a tough player Ill think of a Tom Wilson like not a player with zero penalities in a whole season.

 

[SnapVirus]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

 

[EveryDay]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

I agree with this also I'm expecting 70+ points season next year for him but many wouldn't take him even with that production.

I hope MTL is on him IF he's made available.

 

[Pat Riot]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

Thats what I see too when I watch him play. Not sure where is bad reputation comes from. He is cocky and flashy some people dont like that. But that guy compete big time. I think he would be an amazing add for our team.

 

[Scriptor]

Some are happy to hear this, but many others hear the very same words and they think this means that every player Hugo target must be in the mold of Gordie Howe.

On top of that, the modern-day Howe must be willing to play for below market value, and be the right age. Having to be the right age excludes anyone on a bridge contract, because if they are as good as we want them to be, they will ask for more money than we think they are worth (now). It also excludes anyone over 25 who needs a long-term deal because that would put them in the old-age home by the end of their deal, just when we might start to compete (i.e. 2031 or 2032)

The opposing GMs must be willing to trade these proven, complete players for draft picks no better than late first rounders (never again overpay like we did for an incomplete player like Newhook). They must also value salivate for those youngsters whom we have decided will probably never be core players for us, and thus we are willing to include. If that does not satisfy the GM on the other side of the table, Montreal is only allowed to sweeten the deal with players 30 and up whose contracts we all here agree are too rich and too long.

Oh, one more thing. These studs coming in must not improve the team enough to cause us to draft worse than top-5, until and unless we are ready with a serious shot at winning the Cup, which must apparently be overnight at some point.

Major sarcasm, there.

It isn't incompatible to address skill and size in the same targeted player.

It is, however, rare to see such a player dangled in the first place, barring undisclosed side issues, and even rarer to see them dangled at thrift store prices.

You want such a high end forward, it will cost you; high end D or early first round draft pick, with, or more.

A lotto Hab fans approach trades as how Hughes can fleece some other GM clearly undeserving of the job.

That's farcical and overly prevalent as seen in many trade propsals which your sarcasm evokes.

You want a top-end, younger forward that isn't a locker room cancer in a trade, the first ask will likely be Guhle, and that needs be from a team that is in win-now mode and also has a surplus of quality forwards. Those teams are rarer than an Elvis Presley sighting at a rave.

Guhle also won't be the only piece that needs be headed the other way.

You'd likely need to include a forward with potential (even if the likelihood of that player becoming the forward that they give up is low) and a 1st round pick.

So, for a top end young forward - say Kyrou from the Blues -- Montreal would likely have to give up Guhle + one of Roy or Beck + the WIN 2024 draft pick. That also might not be enough tory Kyrou free from the St-Louis market.

Luckily, Montreal will have the Cap room to accommodate such a move and take on 8.125M over 7 more years from Kyrou's long term contract, while sending an ELC contract for Guhle, Roy or Beck and futures in the form a late 1st round pick, a net addition of considerable Cap space.

Guhle's next contract likely won't be as high as Kyrou's contract, IMO.

Would you give up Guhle + one of Roy or Beck + the WIN first round pick in 2024 for a player like Kyrou?

Would the prospect of eventually aligning the following top-6 make it worthwhile:

Caufield - Suzuki - Slafkovsky
Lindstrom/Iginla - Dach - Kyrou

If Roy is traded for Kyrou, that leaves a speedy tandem of Newhook - Beck to build a 3rd line around.

If Beck is traded for Kyrou, that leaves a high hockey IQ tandem of Newhook (C) - Roy to build a 3rd line around.

At that point, regardless of what tandem you build a 3rd line around, a winger is easily snagged from the UFA market.

On D, the loss of Guhle removes a shutdown, first pairing D from the equation in Montreal, but the relative upside and talent of the prospect pool at D for the Habs might well make sacrificing Guhle worthwhile if we can acquire a young, established impact forward who can score and create like Kyrou.

We are still left with Reinbacher, another shutdown D with first pairing upside to eventually pair up with the offensive dynamo that Hutson can be.

We still have the veteran, offensive presence of Matheson and an up-and-coming two-way D that can play the right side and whose D-game is already a strength in Engstrom. As a third pairing,wealready saw chemistry in a Xhekaj-Mailloux pairing.

Caufield - Suzuki - Slafkovsky
Lindstrom/Iginla - Dach - Kyrou
Newhook - Beck - UFA / UFA - Newhook - Roy

Hutson - Reinbacher
Matheson - Engstrom
Xhekaj - Mailloux

 

[Scriptor]

I think that the problem with Zegras will be his next contract after two more seasons. Expect he holdout for more money than his production (at that point) is worth and that this limits our chances of adding as much talent as possible for an eventual Cup run.

That's why a producer in the 70-point range like Kyrou is a better target, because he is already inked than 8.125M contract over the next 7 years, because St-Louis is the typeof team ready to compete for a Cup now that might look to upgrade on D (our strength from which to trade from).

 

[salbutera]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

This!

Fortunately Zegras’ youth coach at MidFairfield is now the Habs coach & is able to provide insight on the player

 

[Scriptor]

My problem with Zegras is that, as a 20-goal scorer, he is more of a playmaker and Montreal needs scoring, not passing.

It's all relative and more of a lack of will to pay big for more of a playmaker.

A 30-plus goal scorer like Kyrou is more appealing to me, especially since we already have more of playmaker in Dach.

Montreal needs to complement the top-6 with a potential for more goals.

We can get 30+ goals from Caufield, Suzuki and, maybe, Slafkovsky, down the line.

Adding Kyrou -- or a Kyrou type -- who can score 30+, for example, plus one of Lindstrom or Iginla as goal scorers to go on a line with Dach, who can dominate a shift and set up linemates, would go further than adding Zegras, IMO.

 

[BaseballCoach]

You’re mislabelling a lot of people in this post. A lot of people simply don’t think Zegras is good enough to warrant paying a premium on threw a trade and new inevitable expensive contract. It’s really not that deep.

It's not about Zegras per se, but really about anyone proposed. There are always ten reasons to say no, unless the other GM gives our target player to us for nothing. Last year, Keller was a no go.

 

[nhlfan9191]

It's not about Zegras per se, but really about anyone proposed. There are always ten reasons to say no, unless the other GM gives our target player to us for nothing. Last year, Keller was a no go.

I remember Keller receiving a lot of positive feedback. But maybe I wasn’t paying close enough attention. It just seems the names we see brought up consistently are either unrealistic in teams are very unlikely to give them up or have become expendable for reasons that raise red flags. This is why drafting and development is super important for us right now so we can bring in our own untouchable players. If the right trades come around, then we can either trade for them or sign them. I don’t see the need to rush and force it right now. I feel like the hype PLD got for years and now Zegras comes from fans getting over anxious to get things going. If we want to be competitive for a cup ever again, we can’t be relying on a bunch of players like Zegras to move the needle. We already have Caufield whose more or less a one dimensional goalscorer. We still lack game breakers and I don’t blame myself or other fans that don’t want to give up a bunch of assets or use $8+ million of cap on players that aren’t that.

 

[sampollock]

You know the league is soft when you think Zegras is tough.

nhl is not a goon league anymore. Hughes, Hudson. times are changing.
figs have revass, but they feel it is 1985 still

 

[BaseballCoach]

I remember Keller receiving a lot of positive feedback. But maybe I wasn’t paying close enough attention. It just seems the names we see brought up consistently are either unrealistic in teams are very unlikely to give them up or have become expendable for reasons that raise red flags. This is why drafting and development is super important for us right now so we can bring in our own untouchable players. If the right trades come around, then we can either trade for them or sign them. I don’t see the need to rush and force it right now. I feel like the hype PLD got for years and now Zegras comes from fans getting over anxious to get things going. If we want to be competitive for a cup ever again, we can’t be relying on a bunch of players like Zegras to move the needle. We already have Caufield whose more or less a one dimensional goalscorer. We still lack game breakers and I don’t blame myself or other fans that don’t want to give up a bunch of assets or use $8+ million of cap on players that aren’t that.

Zegras is a play driver and playmaker and not only a sniper. He also costs $2M less than Caufield and both got their deals out of ELC. Yes, TZ deal is shorter but he is not going to SIMULTANEOUSLY shoot up to $9M or so while at the same time SUCKING like some fear.

Keller was widely dissed as too small and too expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sign Crosby or Letang ..... or even Marchessault unless short-term, but I get the feeling from many folks here that they don't really want to EVER 'give to get'.

Vegas has been making trades, giving from strength to get what they believed they needed, and it won them a Cup.

 

[Scriptor]

Zegras is a play driver and playmaker and not only a sniper. He also costs $2M less than Caufield and both got their deals out of ELC. Yes, TZ deal is shorter but he is not going to SIMULTANEOUSLY shoot up to $9M or so while at the same time SUCKING like some fear.

Keller was widely dissed as too small and too expensive.

Don't get me wrong, I don't want to sign Crosby or Letang ..... or even Marchessault unless short-term, but I get the feeling from many folks here that they don't really want to EVER 'give to get'.

Vegas has been making trades, giving from strength to get what they believed they needed, and it won them a Cup.

I think that Hughes is more willing to give to get than the vast majority of the Habs' fan base.

Thankfully, I might add...

 

[BaseballCoach]

You’re mislabelling a lot of people in this post. A lot of people simply don’t think Zegras is good enough to warrant paying a premium on threw a trade and new inevitable expensive contract. It’s really not that deep.

I seriously believe that if at this time two years ago, someone had floated the idea of trading Romanov plus our early 3rd and early 4th picks in 2022 for Kirby Dach, the board would have been massively against it.

 

[VirginiaMtlExpat]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

Strikes me as buy-low, if indeed Anaheim could be persuaded to move on. It would be an outrageous first round to get one of Lindstrom/Catton/Iginla and Zegras on Day 1, possibly at the cost of "spare" defenseman. Especially if we can land some talented large-format players on Day 2 who can complement our Hustons and Caufields.

 

[Canadiens98]

You know people are stats watching on hockeydb when they say Zegras plays soft/small.

That dude has more dog in him then all 3 of Dach, Suzuki and Caufield. In fact only maybe Slafkovsky on our top6 would be more agressive than him. He is a pest. Marchand-lite. He hates to loose, hes a gamer like shown in junior/international play. And he absolutely raises his game when stakes are high. He is a gamer.

He missed training camp and had injuries this year. Thats it.

It sounds like you've watched him more than I have so I'm just curious - What's the most you'd be willing to give up in order to bring him over?