Confirmed with Link: TRADE: Penguins acquire LW Andreas Martinsen, 7th Round Pick from Ducks for Erik Gudbranson

[Jacob]

I think I’m over fighting in all its forms. What is it except two guys trying to give the other a brain injury? How can that be justified? When Crosby fought DuBois... yeah that rallied the team and everything, but why? It’s only because Crosby, the captain and best player, risked another concussion for the sake of his teammates, which is not really brave or noble at all, it’s just kinda stupid. And I think Crosby would admit as much. It sucks that it even had the effect it did. I think my opinion should be the same as if he got popped and had to be helped off the ice, a very real possibility in any fight, and just because he didn’t shouldn’t change how I’d have felt otherwise.

Would it be totally stupid if in fights players only went for body shots and a take down?

 

[HandshakeLine]

I think I’m over fighting in all its forms. What is it except two guys trying to give the other a brain injury? How can that be justified? When Crosby fought DuBois... yeah that rallied the team and everything, but why? It’s only because Crosby, the captain and best player, risked another concussion for the sake of his teammates, which is not really brave or noble at all, it’s just kinda stupid. And I think Crosby would admit as much. It sucks that it even had the effect it did. I think my opinion should be the same as if he got popped and had to be helped off the ice, a very real possibility in any fight, and just because he didn’t shouldn’t change how I’d have felt otherwise.

Would it be totally stupid if in fights players only went for body shots and a take down?

Not at all, IMO. And I'm a combat sports guy, and a competitive judoka. Besides, a liver punch hurts way worse than getting your bell rung. (Incidentally, the British Medical Association ran a study about a decade or so ago on boxers and the results suggested that bare knuckle boxing was actually way better for the competitors than the gloved variety, owing to the simple fact most bare knuckle boxers fought with shots to the body instead of the head to avoid breaking their hands.)

Like I said, fighting is going to have to change at some point in the game's future. The questions are really just "when?" and "how?" It's so ingrained in hockey culture than any change is going to be generational, like what we're starting to see with concussions, or like what happened with helmets 30 years ago. But it's going to take time and structural changes in the rules and how suspensions are applied.

Until then, fighting, like it or not, still has a place in the modern game.

 

[NMK11]

Sorry, got up on the wrong side of the bed yesterday and was just pretty much waspish all day.

No worries, we've all been there.

I disagree with the qualifier "good", because there's several well-regarded role players who produce in the low double digits who are not involved in the discussion, yet we focus on Reaves as if he's the only one we could say that about. I mean, we talk about penalty killing, but not every 4th liner on the Pens has or will PK too, and hell, some of the top 9 don't do it either. And as far as production, while Reaves outscoring Lucic definitely is an anomoly, does it take away from the accomplishment that he was able to do something a much more talented player was not? No.

I guess I'm using the term "good" in terms of what's done on the ice within the subset of players who are already good enough to make it to the NHL. From my standpoint, he's not "good" at helping the puck get into the opponents net, stop the puck getting into our net, driving possession (Corsi <50% and negative relative Corsi), PKing (didn't even make it out of training camp as a possible PK guy), or being a specialist on the PP. He's physical, yes, but at some point if being physical is that important and he's that good at it, you'd like it to show up somewhere. Other than that he's essentially an AHL level player. Just my take and I'm fully aware that others disagree, but those disagreements should focus on the importance of being physical or fighting or his presence, not on what he actually does while the puck is in play because there's not a lot of evidence out there suggesting he's anything more than a 12/13F at best on a mediocre team.

The fact of the matter is, as much as we may or may not like it, fighting and physicality are skills that have places in the modern game. Reaves is easily one of the best fighters in the league, and he's not a liability as a regular shift. He's capable of absolutely destroying players with a hit. And he can pot a few points as a bonus. If a GM wants to build a 4th line that requires that kind of player (and several do), then Reaves is the best in the league in his position. It does not mean he is a bad player, he's just not the kind of player we have a role for on our roster.

Totally agree on all this. I'm not shy of saying I think fighting is a waste and dumb, but given the set of circumstances that it's here for now, he's the best at what he does. Those are his good qualities (other than apparently being a real good locker room guy, he sounds hilarious with his interactions with Phil last year). I wish we had some tougher guys in the mold of Kunitz like most of us do, I just really don't see any benefit if having a Reaves on this roster and don't understand a lot of the defense of him or the trade.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Word, again, sorry about being so peevish yesterday. I owe you a beverage.

I think in the end, the defense of him often amounts to a sort of realpolitik about what the realities of the game are, just as a lot of the criticism around Reaves revolves around people disliking the fighting aspect of the game specifically. That said, while lots of fighters would be out of a job if the league got serious and laid down a zero-tolerance policy for fisticuffs tomorrow, I'd wager a beer that Reaves could still find work in the NHL, at least for the last few years of his career simply because he's actually a legitimate 4th liner on playoff teams for more than just his fighting. That doesn't mean he'd be a good fit for us or our fourth line, nor that he's an elite 4th liner, or that we'd be better off with him in the lineup up per se. But it also doesn't put him the same category as goons like Sestito or Godard.

Anywho.

 

[NMK11]

Word, again, sorry about being so peevish yesterday. I owe you a beverage.

I think in the end, the defense of him often amounts to a sort of realpolitik about what the realities of the game are, just as a lot of the criticism around Reaves revolves around people disliking the fighting aspect of the game specifically. That said, while lots of fighters would be out of a job if the league got serious and laid down a zero-tolerance policy for fisticuffs tomorrow, I'd wager a beer that Reaves could still find work in the NHL, at least for the last few years of his career simply because he's actually a legitimate 4th liner on playoff teams for more than just his fighting. That doesn't mean he'd be a good fit for us or our fourth line, nor that he's an elite 4th liner, or that we'd be better off with him in the lineup up per se. But it also doesn't put him the same category as goons like Sestito or Godard.

Anywho.

Yeah, but the Hand of God is still the most badass enforcer nickname the sport has ever seen.

 

[EightyOne]

What is this thread about again?

 

[Pancakes]

The fact of the matter is, as much as we may or may not like it, fighting and physicality are skills that have places in the modern game. Reaves is easily one of the best fighters in the league, and he's not a liability as a regular shift.

Physicality, sure. I dunno about fighting though. It's great that Reaves is a badass fighter but there's so few guys like that in the league now that what is even the point? He's not intimidating anyone out there. Time and again we've had fighters on the Penguins and not once has that ever prevented other teams from going after Sid and Geno. Know why? Because Reaves isn't gonna be on the ice when someone takes a run at Sid, because he's never going to play with Sid.

Now a prime Milan Lucic has a ton of value because he was good enough to play with star players and he could throw down. That type of guy I'd always love to have. But Reaves? He's just going to fight other 4th liners, and who really gives a crap about that? If I'm protecting my star guys I want the tough guy who has skill enough to play with them. Think Keven Stevens, or Lucic, etc. Obviously Lucic is a shell of his former self now but in his prime he was that guy.

I think I’m over fighting in all its forms. What is it except two guys trying to give the other a brain injury? How can that be justified? When Crosby fought DuBois... yeah that rallied the team and everything, but why? It’s only because Crosby, the captain and best player, risked another concussion for the sake of his teammates, which is not really brave or noble at all, it’s just kinda stupid. And I think Crosby would admit as much. It sucks that it even had the effect it did. I think my opinion should be the same as if he got popped and had to be helped off the ice, a very real possibility in any fight, and just because he didn’t shouldn’t change how I’d have felt otherwise.

Would it be totally stupid if in fights players only went for body shots and a take down?

Well the good news is the league is mostly over it too. Fighters are a dying breed, and teams try to carry skill guys on the 4th line now.

 

[td_ice]

Physicality, sure. I dunno about fighting though. It's great that Reaves is a badass fighter but there's so few guys like that in the league now that what is even the point? He's not intimidating anyone out there. Time and again we've had fighters on the Penguins and not once has that ever prevented other teams from going after Sid and Geno. Know why? Because Reaves isn't gonna be on the ice when someone takes a run at Sid, because he's never going to play with Sid.

Now a prime Milan Lucic has a ton of value because he was good enough to play with star players and he could throw down. That type of guy I'd always love to have. But Reaves? He's just going to fight other 4th liners, and who really gives a crap about that? If I'm protecting my star guys I want the tough guy who has skill enough to play with them. Think Keven Stevens, or Lucic, etc. Obviously Lucic is a shell of his former self now but in his prime he was that guy.



Well the good news is the league is mostly over it too. Fighters are a dying breed, and teams try to carry skill guys on the 4th line now.

Yeah, and a guy like Kassian has a place in today's game, because he CAN protect McDavid, as well as play on his line, as currently constructed with Drai. I realize that's a huge caveat, someone being serviceable while playing with 2 of the top players in the game, but Kassian is effective with them. He's not a total plug.

 

[Peat]

Imo, if the league wants to prevent fisticuffs, a large part of it won't be zero tolerance for fighting so much as zero tolerance for shenanigans. You don't need to fight Tom Wilson if he understands every time he steps out of line his ban has two digits and if he really steps out of line its half the season. The list of psychos who keep repeat offending under harsh sanctions is very low. You ban fighting but still allow the behaviour that makes people want to fight and you simply create new problems.

Admittedly, the big problem with that is that you may effectively be penalising hitting out of the game... but we'll see. Its amazing what players can adapt to if you force them to.

 

[lastcupever75]

Everyone knows that even the best GM's fail at times.

However, my problem with some of the trades the past couple of years, and I said it at the time of each trade, was the complete 180 degree shift from speed, youth and skill that won back to back cups to this quest for size and grit that most here knew was a mistake.

So the individuals traded for, fine, it happens.

Change of philosophy trying to be part one thing and part the other which is diametrically opposed to the first? Not fine at all.

we barely won that capitals series. Fluery stood on his head in game 7 to help us advance. a big part of the caps almost winning that series was crosby missing games .

how many times can you "turn the other cheek"when hit/cheap shotted before you get injured and miss some games?
that was what JR was trying to help with