Proposal: Trade for Cam Fowler

[InjuredChoker]

I'd much rather send Svechnikov than Mantha. I think Mantha's ceiling is just better and he's more developed so he's the safer option as well.

i think svechnikov has higher ceiling... but he's a bit of a wild card on how good he ends up.. could be 1st line C or just passable 3rd line scoring C.. with middle 6 being the most likely outcome.

 

[InGusWeTrust]

I think we need to move one of them to get us a better d-man.

 

[Henkka]

Are we talking about the same Cam Fowler? He puts up 35 points a year like clockwork since his rookie year and he's only 24.

Offensive ability and puck moving are literally his strongest attributes. Since 2010, Cam Fowler ranks #28 among defender scoring. Guess who is #29? Mike Green.

I don't like that -47 number on his statistics. Than kind of winter is very cold.

Plus-minus could be a flawed stat on small sample size, but samples from multiple years won't lie.

 

[jkutswings]

I don't like that -47 number on his statistics. Than kind of winter is very cold.

Plus-minus could be a flawed stat on small sample size, but samples from multiple years won't lie.

But digging deeper, he was -53 during his first two years in the league, and has been +6 over the 4 years since then. I'm willing to cut him a little slack in that department.

 

[Ricelund]

But digging deeper, he was -53 during his first two years in the league, and has been +6 over the 4 years since then. I'm willing to cut him a little slack in that department.

The Ducks were also a terrible team his second year in the league.

 

[HisNoodliness]

i think svechnikov has higher ceiling... but he's a bit of a wild card on how good he ends up.. could be 1st line C or just passable 3rd line scoring C.. with middle 6 being the most likely outcome.

I honestly just don't see him as being a 1C. His play strikes me as more of a wingers game and I see his ceiling as a 2C/1W. Which is obviously still very good. I don't think Svech has the potential to put up huge points like Mantha though.

 

[Yemack]

I honestly just don't see him as being a 1C. His play strikes me as more of a wingers game and I see his ceiling as a 2C/1W. Which is obviously still very good. I don't think Svech has the potential to put up huge points like Mantha though.

Svech does have instant creativity though, that you often see from Russian forward.

I only saw Svech in one game but it seems he can think, make decision at fast pace. Which I haven't seen enough from Mantha.

But I'm not an expert on our prospect so maybe I'm wrong.

 

[HisNoodliness]

Svech does have instant creativity though, that you often see from Russian forward.

I only saw Svech in one game but it seems he can think, make decision at fast pace. Which I haven't seen enough from Mantha.

But I'm not an expert on our prospect so maybe I'm wrong.

Yeah Svech definitely has lots to like in his game. He's definitely creative and plays a very heavy game. He'll do well driving the net. I just think Mantha's tools are more impressive.

And of course none of us here are experts...otherwise we'd get paid to do this instead of just posting on HF. So there's definitely a very very real chance that I'm way off when all is said and done with these players.

 

[Satrebil]

Svech does have instant creativity though, that you often see from Russian forward.

I only saw Svech in one game but it seems he can think, make decision at fast pace. Which I haven't seen enough from Mantha.

But I'm not an expert on our prospect so maybe I'm wrong.

As long as he doesn't punch like Semin. Or slap.

 

[Yemack]

Yeah Svech definitely has lots to like in his game. He's definitely creative and plays a very heavy game. He'll do well driving the net. I just think Mantha's tools are more impressive.

And of course none of us here are experts...otherwise we'd get paid to do this instead of just posting on HF. So there's definitely a very very real chance that I'm way off when all is said and done with these players.

There's no question Mantha is more filled out player at this point.

I just think, with the way NHL is moving towards to, intuition and quick decision making is going to valued more and more.

Hopefully both players turn out to be good career NHLers

 

[obey86]

Is Svech actually playing center in GR?

 

[Frk It]

Is Svech actually playing center in GR?

3rd line LW for tonight's game.

 

[Bench]

I hope we aren't overlooking the fact that Fowler has played almost 100 more games than Green over that period and mustered 1 more point while having a significantly worse plus minus than a guy like Green who has a reputation for questionable D-play. Also let's not forget that Green has demonstrated a significantly higher level of play through history. Lastly, other than the the over the hill guys, he has played more games than almost everyone in his (for lack of a better term) production tier.

That said, I like Fowler and I do think he is a step in the right direction, but let's not blow what he is out of proportion.

First off, I didn't overlook anything. My rebuttal was to somebody that said Fowler doesn't have offensive instinct and can't move the puck well. You look at that list and you see some top defenders and all of them are puck movers. Fowler had held up in that group, played over 400 NHL games, and is only 24-years-old.

That's it. It's not a celebration of him as an elite talent. It's to say, "Hey, these numbers show you he actually holds up against some guys people consider great puck movers."

As for the plus-minus, well, that's been answered. Fowler was a top PK and PP option for the Ducks last year, playing over 2 minutes a game on each. The Ducks allowed the fewest goals in the league, had the best PK, and the best PP. It's undeniable Fowler helps this team and could contribute in a big way.

Of course if I were a betting man, I'd have Fowler on the Rangers way before the Wings. They want him, too, and I think their GM is actually proactive enough to get it done. Then they'll get aggressive on Shattenkirk and we'll wonder how these blueliners keep slipping through our fingers. Damn, so close.

Man, Holland making me jaded about trades.

 

[obey86]

First off, I didn't overlook anything. My rebuttal was to somebody that said Fowler doesn't have offensive instinct and can't move the puck well. You look at that list and you see some top defenders and all of them are puck movers. Fowler had held up in that group, played over 400 NHL games, and is only 24-years-old.

That's it. It's not a celebration of him as an elite talent. It's to say, "Hey, these numbers show you he actually holds up against some guys people consider great puck movers."

As for the plus-minus, well, that's been answered. Fowler was a top PK and PP option for the Ducks last year, playing over 2 minutes a game on each. The Ducks allowed the fewest goals in the league, had the best PK, and the best PP. It's undeniable Fowler helps this team and could contribute in a big way.

Of course if I were a betting man, I'd have Fowler on the Rangers way before the Wings. They want him, too, and I think their GM is actually proactive enough to get it done. Then they'll get aggressive on Shattenkirk and we'll wonder how these blueliners keep slipping through our fingers. Damn, so close.

Man, Holland making me jaded about trades.

"Puck moving" is much more relevant 5v5 compared to a PP when the defense is sitting back and controlled zone entries are more important.

The Wings need someone who can move the puck 5 on 5. If we're looking at 5 year sample sizes and just comparing players by how many points they put up, Jonathan Ericsson is as good of a puck mover as Fowler at 5 v 5.

2011 - 2016:

Fowler
5612 minutes, 30% OZFO%, 50 Opponent CF% 61 points, 23 first assists, -24

Ericsson
4958 minutes, OZFO%, 32% OZFO%, 50 Opponent CF%, 57 points, 24 first assists, +8


So he's basically Jonathan Ericsson offensively at even strength. Except Cam Fowler put up those same numbers as Ericsson playing 700 more minutes on a better team. Just what the Wings need.

 

[Claypool]

Of course if I were a betting man, I'd have Fowler on the Rangers way before the Wings. They want him, too, and I think their GM is actually proactive enough to get it done. Then they'll get aggressive on Shattenkirk and we'll wonder how these blueliners keep slipping through our fingers. Damn, so close.

Man, Holland making me jaded about trades.

All these defensemen people here have begged for over the years have largely sucked or were painfully average. The only impact defensemen Holland truly missed out on was Suter and he can't be blamed for his effort.

 

[obey86]

Cam Fowler played on the #1 PP in the entire NHL last season and barely outproduced a broken down and terrible Niklas Kronwall.

2016 PP:

Fowler,
204 minutes, 17 points

Kronwall,
177 minutes, 15 points

Oh yeah, and he was (again) less productively offensively than Jonathan Ericsson at even strength:

Ericsson,
1088 minutes, 15 points

Fowler,
1135 minutes, 9 points

He doesn't tilt the ice any way. He's mediocre. Like Danny Dekeyser if he got PP time.

 

[obey86]

All these defensemen people here have begged for over the years have largely sucked or were painfully average. The only impact defensemen Holland truly missed out on was Suter and he can't be blamed for his effort.

Yep.

Here are a few that come to mind.

Zach Bogosian was a rumored target for years. We should have traded for and built around him. lol. He sucks.

Tyler Myers. 2nd pair defender. Solid, but not worth giving up a ton of assets for.

Bouwmeester. Solid but meh overall, at least at this point.

Phaneuf. $7 million contract and again, average. Yeah, no thanks.

Matt Dumba. Was a healthy scratch the other day.


Cam Fowler isn't any different than all the other rumored targets. Painfully mediocre/average but because they play for another team they are seen as much better than they are.

 

[Bench]

I don't get the need to run down every single obtainable player in the league, but sure. Have fun.

By not doing anything, the Wings have the worst blueline in the league. Nice job holding firm.

 

[Heaton]

Beggars can't be choosers. Would rather trade a guy the organization seemingly doesn't like to get a 24 year old defensemen with upside. Not really concerned with what he did on a team like Anaheim who is almost as offensively challenged as the Wings.

 

[obey86]

I don't get the need to run down every single obtainable player in the league, but sure. Have fun.

By not doing anything, the Wings have the worst blueline in the league. Nice job holding firm.

sure, we could give up a ton of assets to become marginally better on the back end. sounds like a good plan.

 

[obey86]

Beggars can't be choosers. Would rather trade a guy the organization seemingly doesn't like to get a 24 year old defensemen with upside. Not really concerned with what he did on a team like Anaheim who is almost as offensively challenged as the Wings.

so why be concerned with ddk, ericsson or smith or marchenko offensively then?

they are on an offensively challenged team too....why don't they get the same excuse?

 

[theYman]

I think we need to move one of them to get us a better d-man.

I agree but not for Fowler. Need offensive dman. Fowler is hardly that.

 

[Heaton]

so why be concerned with ddk, ericsson or smith or marchenko offensively then?

they are on an offensively challenged team too....why don't they get the same excuse?

Not really a good argument. I'm not interested in nitpicking every single potential trade target, if we do that, we'll continue having the same issues we've had since Lidstrom retired.

Like I've said a million times, Fowler would be a step in the right direction, he's not a #1 defensemen or an elite offensive defensemen, but having watched him play he's good moving the puck, has a good shot and would be used as an offensive defensemen unlike Ericsson, DeKeyser, Smith or Marchenko. I think he has a lot of offensive ability unlike the guys you mentioned.

I don't think this organization has any intention of playing Mantha how he needs to be played. He'll get buried in the depth chart for not back checking and they'll never use him to his strengths. Get a young defensemen and be down with it.

 

[theYman]

how do we fit him under the cap? Someone else needs to be involved.

 

[Heaton]

how do we fit him under the cap? Someone else needs to be involved.

Can't we just LTIR Kronwall?