Post-Game Talk (GBU): Trade Deadline Edition

[Hasek]

Great deadline. I really like the two guys coming back from the LA deal. To me this trade gives of the aura of one of those deals that gets talked about in 8 years as a "steal of a decade" meaning one of the three players included will really break out. Let's hope its not McNabb.

Here's a fantasy scenario for you. Let's say Regier was hired by Sabres just for trading. So GMTM went to hm and said, "I want that Fasching kid from LA". Darcy goes and trades McNabb for Fasching, Des, and 2nds.

Then goes and...
jaroslav halak, g for

michal neuvirth, g
rostislav klesla, d
2015 3rd-round pick
2015 2nd-round pick

then...

matt moulson, f
cody mccormick, f
for
torrey mitchell, f
2014 2nd-round pick
2016 2nd-round pick, 2017 2nd-round pick, 2018 2nd-round pick, 1999 2nd-round pick, 2019 2nd-round pick

 

[Mellifleur]

G: Adding Carrier, Fasching and more picks. Getting paid for all our pending UFA:s.

B: Overpaying in the deal with LA. I get that we've got a lot of picks to play with and that the logjam at D made McNabb expendable, but I'm still not a fan of that deal. If Fasching is so promising, why wasn't he picked before the fourth round? And if Murray is such a great talent evaluator, why didn't the Senators pick up Fasching earlier? But yeah, things happen, players develop. I have confidence that it's a good addition, just think we gave up too much. Hope to be proven wrong.

U: Leino still here. Islanders. Rangers.

According to various reads I have hunted down, Fasching was projected to be drafted in the 2nd round at the beginning of is draft year, but the year he was drafted he had a down year. I am fine with flipping a defense prospect (who was leapfrogged by at least 3 guys) and a few picks this year for a good forward prospect and possibly two depending on how Deslaurier pans out. It's a gamble but you don't know what you would have gotten with those 2 picks and holding onto McNabb except a longer wait time. IMO we accelerated the curve of the rebuild, McNabb was falling behind, the 2nds would be at least 3-4 years out. Fasching and Deslaurier are closer to being NHL players and by the time they are ready to contribute the Sabres ship should be righted.

 

[Afino]

U: Sabres giving Neuvirth #30

 

[haseoke39]

According to various reads I have hunted down, Fasching was projected to be drafted in the 2nd round at the beginning of is draft year, but the year he was drafted he had a down year. I am fine with flipping a defense prospect (who was leapfrogged by at least 3 guys) and a few picks this year for a good forward prospect and possibly two depending on how Deslaurier pans out. It's a gamble but you don't know what you would have gotten with those 2 picks and holding onto McNabb except a longer wait time. IMO we accelerated the curve of the rebuild, McNabb was falling behind, the 2nds would be at least 3-4 years out. Fasching and Deslaurier are closer to being NHL players and by the time they are ready to contribute the Sabres ship should be righted.

Fasching is a 2013 pick. I don't consider that much acceleration. He's maybe redeemed his stock from 4th rounder back to 2nd, is what I hear people saying about him. Not sure how that's worth 2 seconds.

 

[omglolnub]

U: Sabres giving Neuvirth #30

It falls on the "too soon" to re-distribute the number in my opinion, but would they retire his number? Can't retire 'em all, after all. 30's a common number for goalies and Miller was hardly the first Sabre goalie to wear it, no?

 

[haseoke39]

You cannot be serious....

What? A pair of seconds is as much as vanek returned. The only reason the board is cool with this is because we're totally trusting Murray's judgment. But yeah, this kid is a huge question mark for me. If he never got offered a pro contract, I couldn't say I'd be surprised.

 

[SoFFacet]

What? A pair of seconds is as much as vanek returned. The only reason the board is cool with this is because we're totally trusting Murray's judgment. But yeah, this kid is a huge question mark for me. If he never got offered a pro contract, I couldn't say I'd be surprised.

What would be the difference between Murray trading those picks for people you aren't sure about, as opposed to just using those picks on people you don't prefer? Either way it's just your preferences vs his. That difference will of course cause you to rate decision poorly, but you can't fault other posters for not following along if they suspect that Murray is more informed than you.

The general reaction would be much different if there were no comprehensible line of reasoning that could justify it. But this one is pretty easy. There is really no denying that Fasching's stock has risen quite a bit since he was drafted.

 

[haseoke39]

On net, we turned:
Miller
Moulson
Ott

Into:
2015 first
Fasching
Carrier

And then a bunch of dead weight exchanged one way or the other. You can net out the four picks in the St. Louis condition and then forget we got that third in the first place, because we later gave it to Washington. Stewart is pretty much dead weight. Neuvirth and klesla were considered cap dumps until Murray enlightened us about them. The moulson picks went straight to fasching. So yeah, on net I'd say we got a pick and two prospects - in terms of what's actually valuable to us as a revuilding team and that you can't improve upon by simply scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel - for all three of them.

 

[Zman5778]

On net, we turned:
Miller
Moulson
Ott

Into:
2015 first
Fasching
Carrier

And then a bunch of dead weight exchanged one way or the other. You can net out the four picks in the St. Louis condition and then forget we got that third in the first place, because we later gave it to Washington. Stewart is pretty much dead weight. Neuvirth and klesla were considered cap dumps until Murray enlightened us about them. The moulson picks went straight to fasching. So yeah, on net I'd say we got a pick and two prospects - in terms of what's actually valuable to us as a revuilding team and that you can't improve upon by simply scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel - for all three of them.

You're completely ignoring Deslauriers? He was 2nd on the Monarchs in scoring....in his first year in the AHL....and only his second full year playing wing.

He's a legit prospect as well.

 

[ZZamboni]

So on net, the Sabres didn't turn Miller into Halak into Neuvirth?

 

[EichHart]

Is this correct so far about our rebuild. (Any corrections)

I know I've seen like 50+ posts asking how many picks the Sabres hold the next two years. Here is a detailed list of the "Sabres Core" dismantled over the last few years.

Lost "Core" Personnel: Gaustad (Feb 2012), Roy (Jul 2012), Pominville (Apr 2013), Vanek (Oct 2013), Miller (Feb 2014)

Lost (other) Personnel: McCormick (Mar 2014)

Lost picks: 3rd (2014)

Gained Personnel: Girgensons (1st/2013), Zadorov (1st/2013), Carrier, Stewart, Neuvirth, Klesla, Larsson, Hackett, Mitchell

Gained picks: 1st (2015), 1st (2014/2015), 1st/2nd/3rd (2014), 2nd (2014), 2nd (2014), 2nd (2015), 2nd (2016), 6th (2014)

How we got here...

Gaustad (2/12) -> 1st (Girgensons)

Roy (7/12) -> Ott (traded w/ Miller, see below) + Pardy (lost as a UFA)

Miller/Ott (2/14) -> 1st (2015), 1st/2nd/3rd (2014, conditional on Miller resigning or STL making conf. finals), William Carrier (Prospect), Chris Stewart ($4mil/yr, UFA in 2015), Jaroslav Halak (traded, see below)

Halak + 3rd (3/14) -> Michael Neuvirth ($2.5mil/yr, UFA in 2015), Rostislav Klesla ($2.975mil/yr, UFA in 2014), 6th

Vanek (10/13) -> 1st (2014 or 2015), 2nd (2015), Matt Moulson (traded, see below)

Moulson + McCormick (3/14) -> 2nd (2014), 2nd (2016), Torrey Mitchell ($1.9mil/yr, UFA in 2015)

Pominville (4/13) -> 1st (Zadorov), 2nd (2014), Johan Larsson (Prospect), Matt Hackett (Prospect)

 

[Zip15]

Fasching is a 2013 pick. I don't consider that much acceleration. He's maybe redeemed his stock from 4th rounder back to 2nd, is what I hear people saying about him. Not sure how that's worth 2 seconds.

Several Kings fans have said if that draft was held again today, he'd be picked in the 1st round. His production is virtually identical to Compher's in their respective freshman campaigns, and most believe that Compher should've been a 1st rounder. Additionally, Fasching had an excellent WJC.

In any event, I'm not buying your "we picked up one actual 2nd round player for two future 2nd rounders, so how is that a good deal" logic. The 2014 LAK will be in the 50's. Murray clearly hates this draft past the 1st round. He's encumbered the MIN 2nd and BUF 3rd in the Miller/Ott deal, and he traded the LAK 2nd. (And I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that the WPG 2nd ends up being traded before the draft.) That leads me to believe he doesn't think we can get anything remotely approaching Fasching with that pick and a (probable) pick in the 50's next year.

He identified a player he really likes and he moved decisively. And the trade can be defended on value grounds, as well.

 

[dotcommunism]

You're completely ignoring Deslauriers? He was 2nd on the Monarchs in scoring....in his first year in the AHL....and only his second full year playing wing.

He's a legit prospect as well.

Deslauriers is in his third year in the AHL and I believe his first full year playing wing (at that level)

As far as the stuff about not trading Tallinder, looking at what other UFA defensemen got, he'd have returned maybe a 5th round pick.

 

[Ralonzo]

So to sum up the 2013-14 Tank Nation season:

OUT:

Thomas Vanek, F
Corey Tropp F
Steve Ott, F
Ryan Miller, G
Brayden McNabb, F
Jonathan Parker, F
Cody McCormick, F
---
2014 2nd round pick (LAK)
2015 2nd round pick (LAK)
2015 3rd round pick (BUF)

IN:

Matt D'Agostini, F
Zenon Konopka, F
Chris Stewart, F
William Carrier, F
Cory Conacher, F
Hudson Fasching, F
Nicolas Deslauriers, F
Michal Neuvirth, G
Rostislav Klesla, D
Torrey Mitchell, F
---
2014 -or- 2015 1st round pick (NYI)
2014 2nd round pick (WPG)
2015 1st round pick (STL)
2016 2nd round pick (MIN)
2016 conditional 3rd round pick (STL)


That is seriously blowing it up and laying a new foundation

 

[wunderpanda]

Matt D'Agostini, F
Zenon Konopka, F
Chris Stewart, F
Cory Conacher, F
Michal Neuvirth, G
Rostislav Klesla, D
Torrey Mitchell, F

That is seriously blowing it up and laying a new foundation

Not sure if those pieces are foundation or just a tarp covering the sight posts and chalk lines

 

[Heraldic]

What? A pair of seconds is as much as vanek returned. The only reason the board is cool with this is because we're totally trusting Murray's judgment. But yeah, this kid is a huge question mark for me. If he never got offered a pro contract, I couldn't say I'd be surprised.

Fasching is having a better freshman year than Nick Bjugstad had, and is producing more points as well. He also had a great WJC (again, produced the same amount of points as Bjugstad did at same situation). He's also having quite similar year as Compher.

So are you really saying that it's reasonable to view Fasching as an average 2nd round pick?

He also satisfies almost perfectly the organizational need of having more potential top-6-forwards. He's not really even having any clear holes in his game. Can he still bust? Sure. Though, I view him higher than Carrier, absolutely.

 

[phosphene*]

I'm sorry, but turning Vanek into a top 5 pick makes the entire year a success.

Bravo, Darcy.

 

[dire wolf]

Here are some interesting links from Kings boards on Fasching and Deslauriers:

http://lakingsinsider.com/2014/02/10/deslauriers-athleticism-strength-ease-transition/


http://lakingsinsider.com/2014/02/12/weekend-in-manch/

http://lakingsinsider.com/2014/01/28/four-lakings-com-stories/

http://lakingsinsider.com/2013/12/29/fasching-continues-strong-wjc-campaign/

I think you'll be happy about the trade after reading stuff like this.

Some good quotes on Deslauriers:

"The move [from D to LW] hasn’t been as much of an experiment as it has been a thoroughly successful transition that “reinvigorated [Deslauriers'] whole career,” according to Morris. Deslauriers scored four goals in the team’s first preseason game, and at the AHL All-Star break ranks second on the club in goals with 15."

"His play down low and along the boards has also drawn praise from the team’s coaching staff and the Kings’ hockey operations. Listed by the Monarchs at 6’1 and 230 pounds, his upper body strength is apparent when speaking with him"

"“He’s probably our best athlete,” Morris said."

"“The closest thing we have to a King or Nolan right now is Nic Deslauriers,” Morris said. “I haven’t seen him lose too many fights.”

Quotes on Fascing:

"Hudson Fasching is 6-feet-2, 215 lbs and he's wreaking havoc on both the college and international hockey scenes. Fresh back from playing in Sweden with Team USA at the World Junior Championships - the premier tournament in the world for players under the age of 20 - he's a star on the rise and a kid many have already tabbed 'the steal of the draft' last year. Although the American team didn't medal, Fasching was one of the breakout stars for the group, playing his typical puck-hungry aggressive style. He used his size, created opportunities for his teammates and was extremely sound defensively."

""If you want to talk about character, you start at the top with Hudson. Plain and simple," Yannetti emphatically noted. "He embraces that role, too. You can see how he carries himself. You can see the type of young man, you can see that character. Hockey’s the easy part."'

"Hudson Fasching — Named Team USA’s player of the game having scored the first goal, Fasching was a dominant force on many, if not all of his shifts. He is so hard to take off the puck and does a great job down low. From the faceoff dots down in the offensive zone, the U.S. doesn’t have a guy who has been better than Fasching there. It’s an important area and will be even more important against Canada."

 

[Heraldic]

I really think that Ryan Kesler "screwed" the markets from sellers pov. It seems that he was the primary target of almost every "strongest" buyer, and him not being moved, it really didn't create any "domino-effects". And I think the teams that were after Kesler were really hesitant to give up anything with value, because they know that Kesler is for sale again in the draft (like Schneider was), and they are keeping their ammunition until the draft. And because of that, the teams were reluctant to execute any "plan-b", which most likely were Vanek and Moulson. La, MTL, Ott and Min were not in any rumour being after Kesler, and they grabbed the the most valuable players after Kesler (Vanek, Moulson, Gaborik and Hemsky), and Anaheim, Bos or Flyers didn't make any move. Even Pens used only later round picks, and kept their 1st round pick and 2nd round pick.

This absolutely was quite a devastating factor regarding Moulson's price, but it might benefitted us by lowering Vanek's price as well and increasing the odds of Islanders being a bottom feeder again next year (in case the keep their this year's pick, which they most likely do).

 

[ZeroPT*]

What? A pair of seconds is as much as vanek returned. The only reason the board is cool with this is because we're totally trusting Murray's judgment. But yeah, this kid is a huge question mark for me. If he never got offered a pro contract, I couldn't say I'd be surprised.

We literally got back those seconds within 3 hours. Murray even moved up, he traded the Kings pick which likely would be bottom 10 aswell as there '15 pick for WPG's 2nd which will likely be between 37th overall and 43rd.

He's a question mark? The reason he slid to the 4th round is because he had a down year which was fueled by the awful medical situation his family is currently in. Try and focus on hockey when both of your siblings have a disease not allowing them to talk nor speak, requiring around the clock care. Go look at his freshmen numbers, they are better than Nick Bjugstad who is one of the panthers best young players this year.

And we cannot ignore Nick Deslauriers who was leading his team in goals as a D-man turned forward with 18 goals.

Would it have been nice to have flipped Stewart,Ehrhoff,Myers,Moulson,Miller and Ott for a bunch of 1sts? Yeah. But Murray said it in his interviews, he doesn't like this years draft depth wise, meaning from the 2nd half of round 2 all the way to round 7, are not very good... If he thinks guys like Fasching and Deslaurier will be better NHLer's than a couple 2nds in a weak draft I'm completely fine with that.

 

[LGBuffalo]

Fasching is a 2013 pick. I don't consider that much acceleration. He's maybe redeemed his stock from 4th rounder back to 2nd, is what I hear people saying about him. Not sure how that's worth 2 seconds.

He fits an organizational need. I've seen him at Minnesota and watched all of the WJC. He was phenomenal. I remember asking my buddy if he knew his draft status or who had him. When I looked it up and saw LA got him in the 4th, I was stunned. He was the best player on the ice for stretches. His development continued to jump at Minnesota, so the WJC probably wasn't a fluke. If you want to get a player that you feel will make a large impact on the team, you have to spend to get him. They feel he's worth it, and from what I've seen, they're not wrong.

 

[haseoke39]

You're completely ignoring Deslauriers? He was 2nd on the Monarchs in scoring....in his first year in the AHL....and only his second full year playing wing.

He's a legit prospect as well.

Really? 23 years old and in his third AHL season, switching positions just now to try and revitalize his career? Depth guy at best, don't you think? Luke Adam has the better pedigree at this point.

So on net, the Sabres didn't turn Miller into Halak into Neuvirth?

I'm just saying you can get a backup goaltender on a one year deal in UFA. I don't consider that a valuable asset for us going forwards. If he flees to the KHL, it doesn't affect us, really. We have to sign a guy in the offseason, is all.

So yeah, I'm not counting depth guys and backups as something valuable we got yesterday. You go the trade route to acquire valuable pieces for your team moving forward, not fill-ins. Fill-ins can be had for free.

 

[Karate Johnson*]

On net, we turned:
Miller
Moulson
Ott

Into:
2015 first
Fasching
Carrier

And then a bunch of dead weight exchanged one way or the other. You can net out the four picks in the St. Louis condition and then forget we got that third in the first place, because we later gave it to Washington. Stewart is pretty much dead weight. Neuvirth and klesla were considered cap dumps until Murray enlightened us about them. The moulson picks went straight to fasching. So yeah, on net I'd say we got a pick and two prospects - in terms of what's actually valuable to us as a revuilding team and that you can't improve upon by simply scraping the bottom of the UFA barrel - for all three of them.

Stewart is dead weight?

Your entire outlook on all this is so incredibly flawed.



If thi kids from LA are a "question mark" for you, I don't think you're going to find too many people that really care considering you know nothing about either and heard their names for the first time yesterday and have still never seen them play.

 

[haseoke39]

Stewart is dead weight?

Your entire outlook on all this is so incredibly flawed.



If thi kids from LA are a "question mark" for you, I don't think you're going to find too many people that really care considering you know nothing about either and heard their names for the first time yesterday and have still never seen them play.

We'll see what you think of Stewart in a year. Blues fans tried to warn us.

I'm sorry that I don't find an 18 year old who is 30 games removed from being a fourth round pick knocked for his consistency issues to be the surefire top 6 player everyone around here has him pegged as. I think "question mark" is a pretty apt term. He could turn out well, he could be a bust, the opinions of 30 NHL GMs who passed on him with their third last spring has some weight for me. For the record, no one here mentioned either Fasching or Deslauriers until we got them. I hardly think I'm alone in not knowing much about the kid.

 

[McCauleyChirps]

Fasching is a 2013 pick. I don't consider that much acceleration. He's maybe redeemed his stock from 4th rounder back to 2nd, is what I hear people saying about him. Not sure how that's worth 2 seconds.

Would it help to say that Fasching would go borderline first round this year?