Confirmed with Link: [TOR/STL] Leafs trade Carl Gunnarsson and 94th pick for Roman Polak - PT II

[Hockey Talker29]

I'm really surprised that some people are reacting so negatively to this.

I really liked Gunnar, but the team had a need for another right handed d-man (RHD).

Statistically, these two are quite similar, so I certainly don't think that this trade is going to make or break us. Most likely it will allow Gardiner to be paired with a RHD that is actually competent in his own end.

From that perspective it seems like an improvement.

Obviously there is a hole in our top pairing now. We should probably wait until free agency is over before we grade Nonis' moves.

People criticizing this are jumping the gun. There will likely be 3-4 substantial moves made over the summer. Let's see how it plays out before we say the sky is falling.

 

[Mess]

Adding Polak to Gunnarsson would make more sense. We don't add we replace. What happens if Gardiner/Phaneuf is not a fit? You took away the only proven player able to help Phaneuf. You think he gets trashed now for not being a no. 1. Gonna be fun.

Gunnarsson was a +12 paired with Dion most of the season going up against the oppositions best on a team that was 5th worst in goals against.. That is actually a respectable performance particularly considering it is well known he was doing it playing through injuries.

Gardiner was a -3 on a team full of almost all negative +\- players and that was against a much lower level of QofC on a lower pairing.

If the plan is really to move Gardiner up to the top pairing with Dion and go up against the best offensive players and replace Gunnarsson its going to be a big challenge as he is not known for his defense but rather his offense. Maybe Dion is going to be asked to be the stay at home dman while Gardiner plays rover and joins the rush and attack.

 

[Trapper]

I'm really surprised that some people are reacting so negatively to this.

I really liked Gunnar, but the team had a need for another right handed d-man (RHD).

Statistically, these two are quite similar, so I certainly don't think that this trade is going to make or break us. Most likely it will allow Gardiner to be paired with a RHD that is actually competent in his own end.

From that perspective it seems like an improvement.

Obviously there is a hole in our top pairing now. We should probably wait until free agency is over before we grade Nonis' moves.

People criticizing this are jumping the gun. There will likely be 3-4 substantial moves made over the summer. Let's see how it plays out before we say the sky is falling.

There is nothing wrong with picking up Polak.
It's getting rid of Gunnarsson at the same time.
Whether or not you put stock in +/-, we just got rid of the best one on the team.
Gunnar + 12
Next closest: Phaneuf + 2
All the rest double digit minus.

 

[Canadian Game]

Trouble is I don't remember Dion playing well with anyone but Gunnarsson.
Unless I'm missing someone?

For some reason I want to say Phaneuf and Gardiner played together for a little bit. Possibly in the short season?

 

[Mess]

Nonis must have a player lined up to be signed July 1st., and that player is likely a better Gunnarsson.

Phaneuf playing:

Defensive d-man:
Phaneuf - Rielly

Offensive d-man
Phaneuf - ????

That has to be Plan A.

Wonder if that Dman is Dan Boyle ?

Phaneuf -- Boyle
Gardiner -- Polak
Rielly -- Franson
Gleason

 

[KuleminFan41]

I'm okay with Polak, but we know he isn't a 1st. pairing defender.

You would have to believe he was brought in for the 2nd. or third pairing, and either the Leafs audition players (Gardiner/Rielly/Granberg) with Phaneuf or they are making a move in free agency.

What role is Phaneuf going to play, offensive or defensive? Usually you don't pay defensive d-men $7 per season, and if anyone thought Gunnarsson was soft what can they believe about Gardiner the toothpick?

http://www.nhl.com/ice/playerstats.htm?fetchKey=20142TORDADALL&sort=hits&viewName=rtssPlayerStats

I don't even think Polak was brought on to paired with Phaneuf. This trade opens things up for the Leafs both on and off the ice. Maybe the Leafs make a play for Niskanen ,Boyle or even Gilbert. Maybe they promote Rielly to the 1st line pairing to play with Dion. IDK, it's all still very early on.

Trouble is I don't remember Dion playing well with anyone but Gunnarsson.
Unless I'm missing someone?

To be fair, he was hardly paired with anyone else and wasn't he paired with Gunnarsson on the PK anyways?

I don't think anyone is bemoaning the fact that Gunnarsson was a #1 pairing defender on the Leafs and is now lost. Most would say Gunnarsson was forced to play on the top pairing which was above his pay grade and abilities and only spoke to how weak the Leafs defense core was because of that situation. Being 5th worst in goals against and 30th in shots against only confirms that.

However Nonis trading Gunnarsson and bringing in a player he describes as "a physical #4/5 defender" doesn't address the top pairing either, only attempts to fix another team weakness.

This was simply Nonis trying to address Leafs lack of physicality on the backend and trying to bring in a big physical depth defender. He is replacing the role Mark Fraser formerly played essentially, only with a much better skater and mobility. Polak is not replacing Gunnarsson but rather Fraser, but it cost the Leafs their best +/- defensive dman to accomplish that. Ideally Gunnarsson would simply have been moved down the depth chart when a true top pairing Dman was acquired.

As soon as Gunnar got traded, most people around here are claiming him to be a #1 pairing defencemen. All because he's gone, when he was here it was "above his head" and now its "we lost our #1 pairing defencemen". It bothers me a great deal because as I've said , the same standards do not apply to another player for those same people.

As for who to play with Dion, I personally believe that will be addressed soon. Either through UFA,trade or promotion from within.

 

[Trapper]

That has to be Plan A.

Wonder if that Dman is Dan Boyle ?

Phaneuf -- Boyle
Gardiner -- Polak
Rielly -- Franson
Gleason

Phaneuf and Boyle 1st pair.
Why do I think I'll be seeing the back of their jerseys a lot?

 

[topched]

That has to be Plan A.

Wonder if that Dman is Dan Boyle ?

Phaneuf -- Boyle
Gardiner -- Polak
Rielly -- Franson
Gleason

That wouldn't be all that bad IMO.

Though I doubt if we bring in another dman that Franson is back. I think Gleason starts on the bottom pairing and is moved to the 7 spot mid way when Granberg is ready.

The.one thing I will say about Boyle is that he brings leadership and is an excellent example for Gards and Rielly. The potential is there for him to move down to the second or third pairing depending on how the young guys develop

 

[topched]

Phaneuf and Boyle 1st pair.
Why do I think I'll be seeing the back of their jerseys a lot?

LOL

A corps with Boyle Gardiner and Rielly would be based completely on the ideology that the best defense is a good offense.

On one hand we'd be able to get the puck out of our own zone finally, but on the other, pick retrieval would he borderline horrendous

 

[ULF_55]

I don't even think Polak was brought on to paired with Phaneuf. This trade opens things up for the Leafs both on and off the ice. Maybe the Leafs make a play for Niskanen ,Boyle or even Gilbert. Maybe they promote Rielly to the 1st line pairing to play with Dion. IDK, it's all still very early on.

To be fair, he was hardly paired with anyone else and wasn't he paired with Gunnarsson on the PK anyways?

As soon as Gunnar got traded, most people around here are claiming him to be a #1 pairing defencemen. All because he's gone, when he was here it was "above his head" and now its "we lost our #1 pairing defencemen". It bothers me a great deal because as I've said , the same standards do not apply to another player for those same people.

As for who to play with Dion, I personally believe that will be addressed soon. Either through UFA,trade or promotion from within.

Rielly is the only promotable defender on the team.

Gardiner skates really well and that's it as far as his above average assets go.

 

[Mess]

You have a lot of faith in someone who has done very little in the form of trades, and what UFA signings he has made have been atrocious. That player is going to be Dan Boyle and at this point in his career - Boyle is not an upgrade on pretty much anyone.

EDIT: Also, if it is Dan Boyle - we will have acquired two defensemen from two of the top teams in the West - the two defensemen who own their teams WORST GF%. I am pretty sure our trouble is keeping goals out of the net, not sure what either of those players will bring to that need.

San Jose gave up only 200 goals against last season = 4th best.

Dan Boyle was a -8 (23rd on SJ in +-/) on a team that was mostly + players, and likely reason why he is being let go. Vlasic was +31 for example.

In comparison Gardiner was only a -3 on a team that was 5th worst in goals against, and not known for his defense nor defensive positioning.

Is Boyle really going to make the Leafs better defensively and replace Gunnarsson who was a +12 in that role?.

 

[Trapper]

LOL

A corps with Boyle Gardiner and Rielly would be based completely on the ideology that the best defense is a good offense.

On one hand we'd be able to get the puck out of our own zone finally, but on the other, pick retrieval would he borderline horrendous

I would feel better if we were able to swing a deal with Dallas for someone like Daley or Dillon to partner with Phaneuf. Not Boyle.

Daley/Dillon-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Polak
Rielly-Granberg (Boyle is fine here)

 

[SprDaVE]

Rielly is the only promotable defender on the team.

Gardiner skates really well and that's it as far as his above average assets go.

Gardiner provides a bit more then just skating really well. He's a bit of a high risk type of defender, but he also provides puck poise, along with both puck rushing and puck moving abilities that are above average. He also has a very underrated shot from the point.

What he really needs to improve on is cutting down on the high risk plays, like bad timing pinches with no support and forced outlet passes. This is where he struggled a lot of times this past season is that he didn't play smart or safe. I don't think he'll ever be a defensive stud but improving that would also help his status, like competing harder along the boards.

When Gardiner is on, he can dominate a game both offensively and defensively. We've all seen it. But when things are not going his way, he needs to be more patient and cut down the high risk plays. But with that said, him being high risk is what makes him so attractive because he can do things a lot of defenders wish they could do, like being to deke and stickhandle his way into the offensive zone with relative ease. Sometimes the high risk play will create a goal or two, but sometimes it'll create a goal against or two. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.

Let's hope we see a more overall consistent Gardiner. We will need him to really elevate his game if we are to be a good hockey team.

 

[BayStBullies]

It definitely looks like a deal with Boyle must be done. Gunnarsson is too soft; so he's not an ideal matchup for anyone but Phaneuf.

 

[HonestHockey*]

Rielly is the only promotable defender on the team.

Gardiner skates really well and that's it as far as his above average assets go.

So true. I'd move Gardiner in a heartbeat for a better asset up front.

 

[highslot]

I don't think anyone is bemoaning the fact that Gunnarsson was a #1 pairing defender on the Leafs and is now lost. Most would say Gunnarsson was forced to play on the top pairing which was above his pay grade and abilities and only spoke to how weak the Leafs defense core was because of that situation. Being 5th worst in goals against and 30th in shots against only confirms that.

However Nonis trading Gunnarsson and bringing in a player he describes as "a physical #4/5 defender" doesn't address the top pairing either, only attempts to fix another team weakness.

This was simply Nonis trying to address Leafs lack of physicality on the backend and trying to bring in a big physical depth defender. He is replacing the role Mark Fraser formerly played essentially, only with a much better skater and mobility. Polak is not replacing Gunnarsson but rather Fraser, but it cost the Leafs their best +/- defensive dman to accomplish that. Ideally Gunnarsson would simply have been moved down the depth chart when a true top pairing Dman was acquired.

while i think you are right about nonis, but we had macwilliams in the wings who could easily replace mark fraser, or maybe holzer even, for far cheaper. i guess if he's a top 4 replacement, then it makes sense.

i hope this isn't another case of overpaying for a bottom 6/ bottom pairing d.

if he's literally a straight replacement for gunnar, then it might be a win because he's just a better skater.

 

[topched]

I would feel better if we were able to swing a deal with Dallas for someone like Daley or Dillon to partner with Phaneuf. Not Boyle.

Daley/Dillon-Phaneuf
Gardiner-Polak
Rielly-Granberg (Boyle is fine here)

Problem is, good teams aren't giving up players like that. Dallas is getting better not worse, no reason to move Daley.

I'm with you philosophically though. The only guy on the FA market that might be able to bring that type of play at those mins is Orpik

 

[BayStBullies]

San Jose gave up only 200 goals against last season = 4th best.

Dan Boyle was a -8 (23rd on SJ in +-/) on a team that was mostly + players, and likely reason why he is being let go. Vlasic was +31 for example.

In comparison Gardiner was only a -3 on a team that was 5th worst in goals against, and not known for his defense nor defensive positioning.

Is Boyle really going to make the Leafs better defensively and replace Gunnarsson who was a +12 in that role?.

+/- is not a great indicator of an individuals abilities.

 

[ULF_55]

RH
Boyle
Polak
Granberg
Franson

LH
Phaneuf
Rielly
Gardiner
Gleason


Phaneuf-Boyle
Rielly-Polak
Gardiner-Granberg

 

[CerebralDevil]

Cap $$$ is gonna kill us. Players need to be moved pronto

 

[ULF_55]

Gardiner provides a bit more then just skating really well. He's a bit of a high risk type of defender, but he also provides puck poise, along with both puck rushing and puck moving abilities that are above average. He also has a very underrated shot from the point.

What he really needs to improve on is cutting down on the high risk plays, like bad timing pinches with no support and forced outlet passes. This is where he struggled a lot of times this past season is that he didn't play smart or safe. I don't think he'll ever be a defensive stud but improving that would also help his status, like competing harder along the boards.

When Gardiner is on, he can dominate a game both offensively and defensively. We've all seen it. But when things are not going his way, he needs to be more patient and cut down the high risk plays. But with that said, him being high risk is what makes him so attractive because he can do things a lot of defenders wish they could do, like being to deke and stickhandle his way into the offensive zone with relative ease. Sometimes the high risk play with create a goal or two, but sometimes it'll create a goal against or two. Gotta take the good with the bad sometimes.

Let's hope we see a more overall consistent Gardiner. We will need him to really elevate his game if we are to be a good hockey team.

He's the softest player on defense, and has no physical abilities at all, and really isn't much of a defender, but he certainly can skate the puck.

I really enjoy watching him play, but he sucks as a defenseman. He'll be 24 this week, I can't really see him changing his game any (he's who he is), but paired with someone like Granberg or Polak, he could be set free to play rover.

 

[Miller91]

+/- is not a great indicator of an individuals abilities.

It does however paint a very STRONG picture when most of your team is a + and you are a big fat minus. Boyle does not play a lick of D - and I do not want that kind of defender paired with Phaneuf. If you want to talk advanced stats - Boyle owned a -1.0 CF Rel% - something that SHOULD be surprising given he is an OFFENSIVE defenseman. If he isn't out-performing his teammates on an offensive level, what good is he?

For his defensive stats - he owned a GF% of 47.6% and a GF Rel% of -7.5% - he was far an away the worst defenseman on the Sharks last season - I do not want to go anywhere NEAR that. For what it's worth, Phaneuf, Gunnarsson, and Gardiner all owned +50% GF% last season - despite playing on Toronto.

 

[The CyNick]

+/- is not a great indicator of an individuals abilities.

It's good if it fits in your argument. If it doesn't, then you swear up and down is a useless stat. a lot of people do it on here. The guy who posted what you responded to is the undisputed champ at it.

 

[studebaker17]

Rielly is the only promotable defender on the team.

Gardiner skates really well and that's it as far as his above average assets go.

totally agree but may be a bit early to thrust rielly into that role. then again it couldn't be worse than putting him with franson last year.

 

[The Legend]

Typical leafs fans, bashing a player before he even suits up for a game LOLL. Give the guy a chance, if he blows, by all means boo your hearts out.

On a side note, that tweet from Gunner just killed me

Ya. Player acquisitions on the Toronto Maple Leafs definitely deserve the benefit of the doubt. Why didn't we give Clarkson a chance?