Confirmed with Link: [TOR/OTT] Matt Murray (25% retention), a 3rd in 2023 and a 7th in 2024 for Future Considerations.

Status
Not open for further replies.

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,243
22,918
Indeed. Though I'm getting much better at just laughing off the nonsense. Maybe it's just because there's been so much of it lately, that it's no longer as frustrating reading the drivel as it once was, like water off a ducks back as the saying goes. Can't wait for the season to start, I have this funny feeling that ... this could be the year. :)
 
  • Like
Reactions: saltming

Da Cool Rula

Registered User
Sep 8, 2017
2,923
1,731
Montego Bay, Jamaica
Yeah I don't think comparing our cap structure to Tampa is necessarily indicative that our plan works

Tampa used their 51 million to supply the following:
Elite centre (Point)
Best winger in hockey (Kucherov)
Elite producer (Stamkos)
Best defenseman in hockey (Hedman)
Low end 1D (McDonagh)
Best goalie in hockey (Vasi)

Toronto used their 51 million to supply the following:
Top 2 centre in hockey (Matthews)
Top 3 winger in hockey (Marner)
Top line winger (Nylander)
Top line centre (Tavares)
Low end 1D (Rielly)
Good 2D (Muzzin)

Tampa's money is spread better, with elite talent in every position. We have elite talent at one position (forward)
Not saying Leafs distribution of funs is great but it sure helps when you can pay your elite players less due to the tax situation. Tbay basically has a larger salary cap then the Leafs.
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
Indeed. Though I'm getting much better at just laughing off the nonsense. Maybe it's just because there's been so much of it lately, that it's no longer as frustrating reading the drivel as it once was, like water off a ducks back as the saying goes. Can't wait for the season to start, I have this funny feeling that ... this could be the year. :)
Agreed it is a pretty settling when you can flip what you read into either curiousity or ammusement instead of it triggering you

This board since i have started posting more regularily has given me some good laughs in spite of whatever inane debate was featured.

By the sounds of it it sounds like you passed the test lol :5:
 
  • Like
Reactions: Gary Nylund

Tarmore

Registered User
Nov 11, 2008
1,141
635
Rielly is legit. He would be on the top pairing of many NHL teams and not just TOR. He logged a lot of minutes and last season had a career high of 68 points.

As for the Murray topic:

I hope he plays well. I am not confident he will.

I agree with your post save one point (or rather 4 points), 68 points is not Morgan's carrier high in points. Not far off but he did get 72 points in 18-19.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ianturnedbull

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,369
15,467
Ok. Party on.
Except the two statements you're trying to equate aren't the same. You're arguing against nobody. I said internal goalie options (which usually take longer than Dubas has been GM to go from draft to NHL), not the state of the entire goalie department.
But to Stephens point a revamped system could have potentially put guys through already
For the record, only 2 goalies drafted in the past 5 drafts have played more than 6 NHL games. One was drafted too high for us to even have a chance at him, and the other was used out of desperation and has sucked in the NHL so far. None are starters.
 
  • Like
Reactions: acrobaticgoalie

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,369
15,467
It wasn’t even that logical, replace a known quantity as backup that had proved it, with an if that had no pedigree.
It was the only logical move. No GM is going to go with a 35+ journeyman backup and pending UFA and throw away their mid-20s Calder Cup winning AHL goaltender of the year without giving him a chance. Also not sure how you're suggesting he didn't have pedigree when he had a 0.928, 0.922, and 0.936 over his 3 previous AHL seasons, he helped lead his team to a championship, and he won AHL goaltender of the year.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,243
22,918
Agreed it is a pretty settling when you can flip what you read into either curiousity or ammusement instead of it triggering you
That's a good way of putting it. I do believe I am getting there though I have to say that I do have the most annoying Dubas worshippers on ignore and if that wasn't the case, I suspect I'd still be triggered from time to time. It's amazing how stubborn and dogmatic some people can be, makes me smh.
 

Zybalto

Registered User
Dec 28, 2012
9,575
8,938
Sparks over McBackup was a logical asset management move that anyone would make in a video game but it missed the actual developmental/goalie department insight that could say "yeah this guy can play the way he does at the AHL level but it will get exposed at the NHL level."

Not just in a video game but a common sense move almost any GM would have made IMO.

Do you choose a journeyman goalie going into his late thirties or the guy who put up these numbers in the A the previous 3 seasons a shot:

14-4-3 .928
21-9-0 .922
31-9-2 .936 + Calder Cup

I think going a combined 66-22-5 with a save% close to .930 and a championship earns you a shot.

He got an extended 20-game tryout (going 8-9-1 with a .902) and didn't work out. He was a bit of a headcase and couldn't adjust to the NHL. These things happen. He earned his shot though. In hindsight, you make the other move of course but I don't think it made a huge difference in the long run anyways.
 

Mess

Global Moderator
Feb 27, 2002
87,105
12,305
Leafs Home Board
Murray's GSAx is his "actual numbers", and the most accurate measure of goaltending performance. You seem to have no trouble utilizing the stat when it suits you, but then you turn around and try to discredit the stat when it doesn't - using it incorrectly and making incorrect statements about it.

"Expected" its right in the title "Goals Saved above Expected" is NOT actual numbers like Shots, Saves, Goals Against, are actual verifiable #'s. Who decides expected goals from actual goals?

The Leafs are "Expected" to win the Stanley Cup, they "Actually" lose in round #1 however.. See how expected is only pretend and not reality?

That is because where shots are taken on the ice Do NOT show up of the Score Clock, only actual real goals against count, not pretend expected ones the goalie should have saved.

The NHL records shots on net as either Goals if they go in, and Saves if the goalie stops then his sv% is calculated based those 2 official accurate figures, and where that shot came from totally irrelevant to the outcome of the game. GSAx is not a stand alone stat its a derivative of actual Goals and Saves.

This is just the basics of understanding on how scoring works in the NHL. For 100 years the NHL never even heard of "expected stats" and to this day go with tracking only actual verifiable numbers for a goalie. You can argue until your blue in the face that the goalie "should" have stopped that one, as he was "expected" to stop that one because he let in a soft/bad goal, but in reality all actual goals count.

Analytics was created to drill down on actual numbers looking for patterns and trends to help understand what might comprise those core numbers, but they only try and help explain the actual numbers. They might only be actual in terms of tracking if the shot came from the point, or the face-off dot or centre ice in that respect, You can see shot location maps all the time tracking were they came from and which ones went in.. The subjective part is the expected part as someone arbitrarily determines IF the goalie should have stopped it. Shoulda, Woulda Coulda doesn't matter expected or not, that's an opinion not a fact, puck either goes in, or the goalie saves it, that is the actual true fact.

A high positive GSAx means your goalie is making a lot of tough saves because they were expected to let in from that shot HDSC location etc on the ice, and vice versa a high negative GSAx means your goalie is letting in a lot of easy goals he likely should be expected to stop but doesn't. When you get to the playoffs you want to count on goalies that make the easy and tough saves and the higher the GSAx the more game saving saves he is making and likely wins your team is recording.
 
Last edited:

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
That's a good way of putting it. I do believe I am getting there though I have to say that I do have the most annoying Dubas worshippers on ignore and if that wasn't the case, I suspect I'd still be triggered from time to time. It's amazing how stubborn and dogmatic some people can be, makes me smh.
:smh

Need and emoji for it:rant:
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
Except the two statements you're trying to equate aren't the same. You're arguing against nobody. I said internal goalie options (which usually take longer than Dubas has been GM to go from draft to NHL), not the state of the entire goalie department.

For the record, only 2 goalies drafted in the past 5 drafts have played more than 6 NHL games. One was drafted too high for us to even have a chance at him, and the other was used out of desperation and has sucked in the NHL so far. None are starters.
Lol.. you edited my post which loses CONTEXT of what i said.. keep editing stuff
 

Suntouchable13

Registered User
Dec 20, 2003
43,628
19,187
Toronto, ON
Indeed. Though I'm getting much better at just laughing off the nonsense. Maybe it's just because there's been so much of it lately, that it's no longer as frustrating reading the drivel as it once was, like water off a ducks back as the saying goes. Can't wait for the season to start, I have this funny feeling that ... this could be the year. :)

Well, enjoy the season Gary. I can’t keep watching this team doing the same thing over and over again. I don’t think Dubas and co really care about winning the cup. They just like putting up huge points in the regular season and the playoffs are a bonus. Like I said, I don’t like what is going on here. If you enjoy and others enjoy it, all the power to you. I have decided that I am not interested in what Dubas is selling. You gotta enjoy what you’re watching, if not then just step away. I will be doing just that.
 

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,369
15,467
"Expected" its right in the title "Goals Saved above Expected" is NOT actual numbers like Shots, Saves, Goals Against, are actual verifiable #'s.
The fact that "expected" is in the title doesn't change that it's an actual number and statistic, based on extensively supported methodology, and a more accurate representation of goaltending performance than anything you just named. And nothing you said has stopped you from using it countless times yourself throughout this summer when it suited your argument.

You tried to compare two seasons that were wildly different. Your so-called "actual numbers" misled you.
 

Leaf Fans

Registered User
Sep 29, 2017
20,531
8,858
Well, enjoy the season Gary. I can’t keep watching this team doing the same thing over and over again. I don’t think Dubas and co really care about winning the cup. They just like putting up huge points in the regular season and the playoffs are a bonus. Like I said, I don’t like what is going on here. If you enjoy and others enjoy it, all the power to you. I have decided that I am not interested in what Dubas is selling. You gotta enjoy what you’re watching, if not then just step away. I will be doing just that.
"You gotta enjoy what you’re watching, if not then just step away. I will be doing just that." I agree with you 100 percent on that point. If I weren't enjoying the games, I wouldn't watch either.
 

Nineteen67

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 12, 2017
23,155
10,399
Yeah I don't think comparing our cap structure to Tampa is necessarily indicative that our plan works

Tampa used their 51 million to supply the following:
Elite centre (Point)
Best winger in hockey (Kucherov)
Elite producer (Stamkos)
Best defenseman in hockey (Hedman)
Low end 1D (McDonagh)
Best goalie in hockey (Vasi)

Toronto used their 51 million to supply the following:
Top 2 centre in hockey (Matthews)
Top 3 winger in hockey (Marner)
Top line winger (Nylander)
Top line centre (Tavares)
Low end 1D (Rielly)
Good 2D (Muzzin)

Tampa's money is spread better, with elite talent in every position. We have elite talent at one position (forward)
And Nylander hasn’t yet committed himself to winning. If he does then their structure should have some playoff success.
 
Last edited:

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,369
15,467
Lol.. you edited my post which loses CONTEXT of what i said..
I didn't edit your post. I quoted the statement I was addressing, and nothing else you said changes anything. Exactly what context do you think was missed? How is a revamped system going to put guys through that weren't put through under any system in the league?
 

All Mod Cons

Registered User
Sep 7, 2018
10,557
11,137
So let's get down to real details here on the goalie personnel at the end of 2021-22. Between the Leafs goalie coach and 9 goalies in the system:

-Steve Briere was hired as Leafs goalie coach July 20, 2015, three months after Nonis and Rick St. Croix were fired by Shanahan/Dubas/Hunter, and three days before Lou was hired July 23, 2015. So I'm going to go out on a limb and say Briere wasn't the product of Nonis/Lamoriello.

-Joseph Woll was drafted in 2016. By Lamoriello.

-Ian Scott was drafted in 2017. By Lou Lamoriello.


-Jack Campbell was acquired February 2020. By Kyle Dubas. I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Artur Akhtyamov drafted in 2020. By Kyle Dubas.

-Michael Hutchinson was acquired through free agency October 2020. No Lou. No Nonis.

-Erik Kallgren was signed August 2021. By Kyle Dubas. Again, I'm going to say Lou and Nonis didn't have much involvement here.

-Keith Petruzzelli signed Summer 2021 by the Marlies. Maybe he was a Dubas acquisition. Maybe it was the Marlies.

-Vyacheslav Peksa drafted in 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

-Petr Mrazek was signed Summer 2021. By Kyle Dubas.

So again, why are we talking about Lou Lamoriello or Dave Nonis?
Clearly Lou's fault.
 

andora

Registered User
Apr 23, 2002
24,337
7,408
Victoria
I didn't edit your post. I quoted the statement I was addressing, and nothing else you said changes anything. Exactly what context do you think was missed? How is a revamped system going to put guys through that weren't put through under any system in the league?
It isnt worth it with you
 

Nineteen67

HFBoards Sponsor
Sponsor
Dec 12, 2017
23,155
10,399
He hadn't shown inability. FYI, they played Washington in 2017.
And in 2017 he starting showing why Anaheim choose to move him, by 2018 we knew he wasn’t the answer. They didn’t fix it and now they’re playing a fingers crossed game.
 

Gary Nylund

Registered User
Oct 10, 2013
30,243
22,918
Well, enjoy the season Gary. I can’t keep watching this team doing the same thing over and over again. I don’t think Dubas and co really care about winning the cup. They just like putting up huge points in the regular season and the playoffs are a bonus. Like I said, I don’t like what is going on here. If you enjoy and others enjoy it, all the power to you. I have decided that I am not interested in what Dubas is selling. You gotta enjoy what you’re watching, if not then just step away. I will be doing just that.
We've seen enough players fail here and then win cups elsewhere that I just can't agree that our guys don't care about winning the cup. They care, and this year they will go deep, that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Our annual playoff misery lessens my enjoyment of the regular season to a degree so I do understand where you're coming from. But I've watched all my life, even when we had no shot at the playoffs and I do believe we can win so I will try to put the past away in a drawer, and try to enjoy the games the best I can. I won't enjoy it as much as I would had we at least won a series or two in recent years but I will still enjoy it to some degree and we have some crazy good talent to watch, M&M doing their thing for example is pretty cool! But if you can't enjoy it then for sure you're better off doing something else with your time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: freshwind

Dekes For Days

Registered User
Sep 24, 2018
20,369
15,467
It isnt worth it with you
Seems like it was worth it to reply to me multiple times and misrepresent what I did. Weird that you couldn't take a second out to actually justify/support your initial statement, if you actually had a response. There weren't guys to "put through" from the past 5 drafts, revamped system or not.
 

ACC1224

Super Elite, Passing ALL Tests since 2002
Aug 19, 2002
74,298
40,217
Not just in a video game but a common sense move almost any GM would have made IMO.

Do you choose a journeyman goalie going into his late thirties or the guy who put up these numbers in the A the previous 3 seasons a shot:

14-4-3 .928
21-9-0 .922
31-9-2 .936 + Calder Cup

I think going a combined 66-22-5 with a save% close to .930 and a championship earns you a shot.

He got an extended 20-game tryout (going 8-9-1 with a .902) and didn't work out. He was a bit of a headcase and couldn't adjust to the NHL. These things happen. He earned his shot though. In hindsight, you make the other move of course but I don't think it made a huge difference in the long run anyways.
You think they would have been aware that he was a headcase.
I'd agree though, of all the mistakes we've witnessed this one would be near the bottom of the list.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad