Proposal: [TOR/CAR] - something around Pesce for Nylander

[Nico the Draft Riser]

People hit like on my comments in this thread and not yours, draw your own conclusions champ.

Must I really explain the difference between Nashville and Carolina's blueline?

'he isnt even the best dman on his pair or his team'

its okay to be wrong dude

 

[The Man with a Plan]

I think the idea of trading nylander has a lot to do with not being able to afford to keep him. there is some serious cap management issues happening In Toronto now

might not be able to bring in any long term contracts at this type of hit

You truly have no idea what you are talking about. There is no cap issue, the only people who say that are the media who is fishing for something, anything Leaf related that is negative. And then you have people like you who believe that trype and parrot it as gospel.

The problems in both Alberta teams are much more real and not based on gossip and hate

 

[Starat327]

'he isnt even the best dman on his pair or his team'

its okay to be wrong dude

You got a like now, too. So it clearly means your posts have more sway.

 

[LeafGrief]

You got a like now, too. So it clearly means your posts have more sway.

The last thing anyone wants to do is start throwing around like numbers in a thread with the Hurricanes fans lmao

 

[BrindAmours Army]

Larsson is better than Pesce in every conceivable way, don’t kid yourself.

The only thing detailing this thread is how fervently you believe that players values skyrocket just by putting on a Hurricane jersey. Nylander for Pesce is an absolute landslide win for you, anyone not a Hurricanes fan can see that.

Nah.

Over the three seasons, Pesce has put up 0.25 P/GP vs. Larsson's 0.22 P/GP, this despite an average of 1:11 less TOI per game.
Pesce P/60: 0.75, Larsson P/60: 0.62

He also takes significantly fewer penalties, 54 PIM vs 155 PIM.
Pesce Minor Penalties/60: 0.37. Larsson 0.77.
Pesce Minor Penalties Draw/60: 0.41. Larsson 0.29.

Pesce A1/A2 = 0.64. Larsson A1/A2 = 0.39.

Pesce's 5 on 5 zone start ratio is 49.52%, which is the second lowest among Canes' defensemen with 60 games played over the three seasons. The lowest is Slavin with 48.25%, and the highest is TVR with 62.18%. Fourth(of ten) in Corsi% with 53.06%. The range on the team is 47.61% to 55.26%.

Larsson's 5 on 5 zone start ratio over the past two years is 47.30%, which is the lowest among EDM defensemen. Highest is Benning with 56.90%. Fifth(of seven) in Corsi% with 50.32%. The range is 47.42% to 53.14%.
During his last season in New Jersey he put up a zone start ratio of 31.82%, the lowest on his team. Highest was 57.96. Third(of five) in Corsi% that season, with 44.56%. The range was 43.48% to 49.08%.

So, Pesce is slightly more productive offensively. He has a significantly higher primary:secondary assist ratio, takes fewer penalties, draws more penalties, similar zone usage relative to team (Larsson was lowest in ZSR, Pesce 2nd lowest), but Pesce seems to have better Corsi% relative to his team than Larsson.

You could very well prefer Larsson as a player, and overall he may very well be better. But the claim that he is better in "every conceivable way" has no basis in reality.

Your not getting Nylander for Pesche(which is kinda the consensus). The fair value from a Toronto stand point would be Brown, Kapanen and maybe a 2nd or 3rd round pick. But I dont think Carolina would want that even though the value is fair. If im Carolina id have been looking at a Domi or Galchenyuk as fair value.

If you think Toronto is going to get a player similar to Pesce for a package centered around Brown and Kapanen, you're insane. In the future, maybe. But at the moment that is a package of a bottom six player and a prospect that has not looked like an NHL player in any of his showings yet.

Browns scored more goals playing 3rd line the Domi hed be on the Canes second line. Thats the offer from Toronto. You should offer Pesche for Pasternak im sure the Bruins would jump all over it.Or maybe Ehelrs if that doesnt work out.

17-18
Connor Brown P/60: 1.36

That would be good for 11th among Canes' players with at least 41 games played last season. The only Carolina forwards beneath this level of production would be Marcus Kruger and Joakim Nordstrom. The player in 10th place was Phillip Di Giuseppe with 1.52, and the upper end of the range is 2.79 for Aho.

Connor Brown G/60: 0.68

That's less bad but still not impressive. That would put him at 9th among Canes' players. Beneath him would be Lindholm (0.66), PDG, Kruger, and Nordstrom. The players above that rate would range from 0.71 (Williams) to 1.25 (Aho).

Connor Brown A/60: 0.68

That would be good for 15th on the Hurricanes. Two forwards (Kruger and Nordstrom), and two defensemen (TVR and Fleury) beneath him.

Combined with the fact that Toronto was a significantly higher scoring team than Carolina it is safe to say that no, Connor Brown would not be on Carolina's second line as his production would be that of a fourth liner, except for his goal scoring in which he would be the worst top 9 forward on the team.

 

[Canada4Gold]

Leave it to Oilers fans to turn a fairly even value Pesce/Nylander thread into arguments about how Hall is way better than Nylander and how Larsson is way better than Pesce. Last time I checked Hall and Larsson aren't in the proposal so it doesn't really matter who you think is better. The Hall/Larsson thing was and always has been brought up as an example of a bad panic value downgrade from a winger to a defenceman because you're desperate. Not a perfect match to who the players are every time it's brought up

Back on topic, I absolutely love Pesce and was after him 2 or 3 years ago when he wasn't as valuable. Would have been a great buy low if the Canes would have been open to it then(probably not). I still don't think I'd pull the Nylander trigger on him though. Kadri would absolutely be available for him and that's from someone who hates the Tavares makes Kadri expendable discussion because it's patently false. But I doubt the Canes would go for something around Pesce and Kadr, even with Hamilton added.

 

[Unsustainable]

The last thing anyone wants to do is start throwing around like numbers in a thread with the Hurricanes fans lmao

Huh?

 

[LeafGrief]

Huh?

Likes Received:36,060

GOTTEM

 

[Starat327]

Huh?

I dont get it either.

Edit: Ah, makes sense now Reading is hard.

 

[BleedBlue4Life]

Stop proposing trades for any leafs player, especially their favorites that they value so highly. It’s not worth the inherent arguing that ensues every single time.

 

[rent free]

Likes Received:36,060

GOTTEM

you should have said "the number of likes" instead of "like numbers". That would have been more clear

 

[The Man with a Plan]

I think the value is decent. But can the world come to grips with the Leafs’ system? They don’t actually have a bad D corps. It’s just not what people traditionally see. Leafs fans and the media want a blue line full of Byfuglien and Burns. Meaty blue liners that carve up the opposition.

That’s not what the Leafs are assembling or desiring. And by the Leafs I mean Dubas/Shanahan/Babcock.

The people in charge want a highly mobile, fleet-footed D corps that moves the puck exceptionally well. Which they have a large chunk of already assembled.

And it’s only getting better with Liljegren and Sandin coming up the pipeline.

The Leafs’ game isn’t about “giveaway, then make ‘em pay” hockey like Dawn Cerise clamours for all the time. It’s about keeping the puck, making smart passes, controlling the play, making it count each time you move the puck up ice.

NHL Classics should really re-cast Olympic hockey from the 70’s/80’s. You’d all see then what that hockey looks like flawlessly executed.

And selling off guys like Nylander to break away from that system is outright foolishness.

Bang on. This is the best post in this thread and the most accurate.

People here seem to think they know better then the professionals. Dubas has already said it a handful of times. We have young talent coming up and the ability to keep the core 4 around for the log term.

We don't need a home run trade for a dman especially at the cost of one of the core. We need patience as our window is only starting to get cracked. We have the assets and prospects to find what we need in house. Bergman, Rosen and soon enough Lilly will all be knocking on the door for a spot. And on the cheap deals we need to boot.

Besides Willie being signed I doubt we seeuch more movement from the leafs until at least the 1/4 mark of the season. Even then... we seem to have found an element to our management we haven't had in ages. Patience.

 

[A1LeafNation]

Nylander has yet to be a center at the NHL level, so he's right in that regards. He may be one some day, but it's not a certainty.

That said, the Leafs still wouldn't trade him for Pesce, and even though some other Canes fans don't feel this way, I think the Canes would do that deal fairly easily. In terms of the OP though, the Leafs have zero need for Rask so that part of it makes no sense.

What are you talking about. He has played center at the NHL level.

 

[A1LeafNation]

LOL Nylander isnt even top 10 NOW for under 23 players

youre ridiculous

Doesn’t mean he can’t be.

We ain’t trading him. Get over yourself.

 

[bukwas]

Stop proposing trades for any leafs player, especially their favorites that they value so highly. It’s not worth the inherent arguing that ensues every single time.

There are quite a few posters(in every fan base) who are mature/emotionally stable enough to discuss trades/players etc. rationally.
Threads involving the Leafs just draw in the loonies from far and wide so it's just a matter of sorting through the garbage and finding the goodies.

 

[Puckstuff]

LOL Nylander isnt even top 10 NOW for under 23 players

youre ridiculous

Nylander is a 60 + point player at 20 and 21 and just turned 22. He won an MVP for Sweden at 21. He also play's best at center. He may be the best potential 1 C under 23 available (not really available though)

 

[A1LeafNation]

Well, most know what Nylander is, he is a 60 point right winger who maybe can turn into a NHL center, and up to this day have not delivered in the NHL playoffs. I know very well who he is, and I value him exactly what he is. I know some tries to value him as a first line center or something, but as today he is less of a proven center then Drouin, Chucky Draisaitl, Wheeler etc etc. My point was, Canes dont need more wingers, they need proven centers for their wingers, what is your problem?

My point is we aren’t risking trading Nylander

 

[zeke]

I really like Pesce a lot but this is an easy no.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

What is the cap management issue? They can afford all their players going forward with ease.

probably mostly a matter of simple math. you might get a horrible shock if you give this matter any sort of attention. sadly, sticking your head in the sand probably wont help you when reality strikes

 

[zeke]

Nah.

Over the three seasons, Pesce has put up 0.25 P/GP vs. Larsson's 0.22 P/GP, this despite an average of 1:11 less TOI per game.
Pesce P/60: 0.75, Larsson P/60: 0.62

He also takes significantly fewer penalties, 54 PIM vs 155 PIM.
Pesce Minor Penalties/60: 0.37. Larsson 0.77.
Pesce Minor Penalties Draw/60: 0.41. Larsson 0.29.

Pesce A1/A2 = 0.64. Larsson A1/A2 = 0.39.

Pesce's 5 on 5 zone start ratio is 49.52%, which is the second lowest among Canes' defensemen with 60 games played over the three seasons. The lowest is Slavin with 48.25%, and the highest is TVR with 62.18%. Fourth(of ten) in Corsi% with 53.06%. The range on the team is 47.61% to 55.26%.

Larsson's 5 on 5 zone start ratio over the past two years is 47.30%, which is the lowest among EDM defensemen. Highest is Benning with 56.90%. Fifth(of seven) in Corsi% with 50.32%. The range is 47.42% to 53.14%.
During his last season in New Jersey he put up a zone start ratio of 31.82%, the lowest on his team. Highest was 57.96. Third(of five) in Corsi% that season, with 44.56%. The range was 43.48% to 49.08%.

So, Pesce is slightly more productive offensively. He has a significantly higher primary:secondary assist ratio, takes fewer penalties, draws more penalties, similar zone usage relative to team (Larsson was lowest in ZSR, Pesce 2nd lowest), but Pesce seems to have better Corsi% relative to his team than Larsson.

You could very well prefer Larsson as a player, and overall he may very well be better. But the claim that he is better in "every conceivable way" has no basis in reality.



If you think Toronto is going to get a player similar to Pesce for a package centered around Brown and Kapanen, you're insane. In the future, maybe. But at the moment that is a package of a bottom six player and a prospect that has not looked like an NHL player in any of his showings yet.



17-18
Connor Brown P/60: 1.36

That would be good for 11th among Canes' players with at least 41 games played last season. The only Carolina forwards beneath this level of production would be Marcus Kruger and Joakim Nordstrom. The player in 10th place was Phillip Di Giuseppe with 1.52, and the upper end of the range is 2.79 for Aho.

Connor Brown G/60: 0.68

That's less bad but still not impressive. That would put him at 9th among Canes' players. Beneath him would be Lindholm (0.66), PDG, Kruger, and Nordstrom. The players above that rate would range from 0.71 (Williams) to 1.25 (Aho).

Connor Brown A/60: 0.68

That would be good for 15th on the Hurricanes. Two forwards (Kruger and Nordstrom), and two defensemen (TVR and Fleury) beneath him.

Combined with the fact that Toronto was a significantly higher scoring team than Carolina it is safe to say that no, Connor Brown would not be on Carolina's second line as his production would be that of a fourth liner, except for his goal scoring in which he would be the worst top 9 forward on the team.

Pesce over Larsson easily for this leafs fan.

but you're still not getting Willy.

 

[Alberta_OReilly_Fan]

You truly have no idea what you are talking about. There is no cap issue, the only people who say that are the media who is fishing for something, anything Leaf related that is negative. And then you have people like you who believe that trype and parrot it as gospel.

The problems in both Alberta teams are much more real and not based on gossip and hate

lets look where the maple leafs cap is sitting for next season... there is 10 players signed for 47.9 million dollars. now lets see who those other 13 players might be and what they might require to sign

lets say Matthews wont sign for less than Tavares... that's 11 mill

mitch marner is rumored to be wanting 9... for argument sake we will give him 9

of course nylander needs a deal... lets give him 6.5
kapanen needs a deal... 1.5 for him?
johnsson needs a deal... seems he might get over 1 too

on defense we got gardner/hainsey/carrick currently making in excess of 8 mill. they wont be cheaper.

we are at 37 mill for these 11 players

or 85 mill for 21 players...

of course we can ltir hortonto get us back to 80 mill but theres still three guys missing to fill out the roster {if we sign a backup goalie too}

now... this is WITHOUT ADDING A SINGLE UPGRADE... if you actually want to add a better dman, then you will need to find more cap room

enjoy this season... this is the last year you don't have cap hell. then expect your team to start being torn apart next year. you guys have a serious cap problem on its way

 

[zeke]

Pesce: 147gms, ES 18:21 (A- qoc), .73p/60, .43p1/60, 53.6cf% (+2.6), 54.9xgf% (+4.9) /
Larsson: 142gms, ES 18:51 (B+ qoc), .57p/60, .25p1/60, 50.5cf% (+0.1), 52.2xgf% (+1.4)

Pesce: PP 0:28, 1.79p/60 0.00p1/60 ---- PK 2:15
Larsson: PP 0:08, 0.00p/60, 0.00p1/60 -- PK 1:57

not really a close comp - even with tougher usage, Pesce is cleanly better than Larsson across the board.

 

[klamla]

lets look where the maple leafs cap is sitting for next season... there is 10 players signed for 47.9 million dollars. now lets see who those other 13 players might be and what they might require to sign

lets say Matthews wont sign for less than Tavares... that's 11 mill

mitch marner is rumored to be wanting 9... for argument sake we will give him 9

of course nylander needs a deal... lets give him 6.5
kapanen needs a deal... 1.5 for him?
johnsson needs a deal... seems he might get over 1 too

on defense we got gardner/hainsey/carrick currently making in excess of 8 mill. they wont be cheaper.

we are at 37 mill for these 11 players

or 85 mill for 21 players...

of course we can ltir hortonto get us back to 80 mill but theres still three guys missing to fill out the roster {if we sign a backup goalie too}

now... this is WITHOUT ADDING A SINGLE UPGRADE... if you actually want to add a better dman, then you will need to find more cap room

enjoy this season... this is the last year you don't have cap hell. then expect your team to start being torn apart next year. you guys have a serious cap problem on its way

its almost like u dont know u can trade players, and contracts end

 

[Finlandia WOAT]

Pesce over Larsson easily for this leafs fan.

but you're still not getting Willy.

how about pesce for Vladimir Guerrero Jr?

 

[Boom Boom Apathy]

What are you talking about. He has played center at the NHL level.

What are you talking about? Having played center for a handful of games doesn’t equate to being a full time center in the NHL. Leafs are my second team and Nylander has been predominantly a winger. Like I said, he may be a center down the road, but to date he’s been a winger.

I agree he’s not available and not being moved for Pesce, just being factual about his usage to date