Top ten players all time, going only on prime

[marty 4 hart*]

Rank the top ten best players ever. Just looking at how god they were when they were in their prime.

Click to read more...

 

[revolverjgw]

I'd say

1- Gretzky
2- Orr

3- Lemieux



4- Howe
5- Hasek
6- Lafleur
7- Hull
8- Shore
9- Jagr
10- Harvey

 

[kmad]

1. Lemieux
2. Gretzky
3. Orr
4. Hasek

Bossy, Hull...

This is difficult. I've never thought about this before.

I would imagine Forsberg would be in the mix.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

The first 8 I'm pretty sure off. After that, it gets tougher.

1. Bobby Orr
2. Wayne Gretzky
3. Gordie Howe
4. Mario Lemieux
5. Guy Lafleur
6. Doug Harvey
7. Bobby Hull
8. Terry Sawchuk

9. Dominik Hasek ?
10. Bobby Clarke ?

HM: Phil Esposito, Valeri Kharlamov, Jaromir Jagr, Eddie Shore, Alex Ovechkin

Can a prime be as short as 2 years? Then Bernie Parent has to be on the list.

 

[shazariahl]

I'd say

1- Gretzky
2- Orr

3- Lemieux



4- Howe
5- Hasek
6- Lafleur
7- Hull
8- Shore
9- Jagr
10- Harvey

That's a pretty good list IMO. I think 6-10 can be moved around a little maybe, but for the most part I'd say that would be my list as well.

 

[pnep]

Total NHL "HHOF Monitor PTS" 3 consecutive seasons

Player| POS |Franch| Last Seas. | Total NHL "HHOF PTS" (3 Cons. Seas.)
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky| C | EDM | 1984-85 | 2057.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr| D | BOS | 1971-72 | 1937.80
Guy "The Flower" Lafleur| RW | MTL | 1977-78 | 1727.50
Gordie "Mr. Hockey" Howe| RW | DET | 1953-54 | 1580.00
Phil "Espo" Esposito| C | BOS | 1973-74 | 1553.50
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin| LW | WAS | 2009-10 | ~1537
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek| G | BUF | 1998-99 | 1511.00
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull| LW | CHI | 1965-66 | 1464.50
Stan "Stosh" Mikita | C | CHI | 1967-68 | 1400.00
Jaromir "Jags" Jagr | RW | PIT | 1999-00 | 1388.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau | C | MTL | 1956-57 | 1307.50
Eduard "Newsy" Lalonde | C | MTL | 1920-21 | 1235.00
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux | C | PIT | 1988-89 | 1225.00
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk | G | DET | 1953-54 | 1194.00
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante | G | MTL | 1959-60 | 1168.50
Ken "Octopus" Dryden | G | MTL | 1977-78 | 1167.00
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher | RW | TOR | 1935-36 | 1165.50
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard | RW | MTL | 1946-47 | 1135.50
Cecil "Babe" Dye | RW | TOR | 1922-23 | 1126.50
Bernie "Barnyard" Parent | G | PHI | 1975-76 | 1119.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin| C | PIT | 2008-09 | ~1100
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan | G | MTL | 1945-46 | 1098.50
Mike "The Boss" Bossy | RW | NYI | 1982-83 | 1084.50
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull | RW | STL | 1991-92 | 1079.50
Joe "Phantom" Malone | C | HAM | 1919-20 | 1059.00
Clint "Praying Bennie" Benedict | G | OTT1 | 1920-21 | 1058.00
Bill Cook | RW | NYR | 1932-33 | 1056.50
Bryan "Trots" Trottier | C | NYI | 1979-80 | 1039.50
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore | D | BOS | 1932-33 | 1016.65
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny | LW | OTT1 | 1924-25 | 1015.00
Dickie "Digging Dicker" Moore | LW | MTL | 1958-59 | 1012.00
Bobby "Clarkie" Clarke | C | PHI | 1975-76 | 997.00
Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri | RW | EDM | 1986-87 | 989.50
Paul "Coff" Coffey | D | EDM | 1985-86 | 989.05
Leonard "Red" Kelly | D | DET | 1953-54 | 979.10
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper | D | BOS | 1940-41 | 971.20
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek | G | BOS | 1940-41 | 965.50
Marcel "Little Beaver" Dionne | C | LA | 1980-81 | 963.00
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson| G | BOS | 1930-31 | 953.50
George "Buck" Boucher | D | OTT1 | 1923-24 | 951.30
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey | D | MTL | 1957-58 | 945.70
Ray "Bubba" Bourque | D | BOS | 1991-92 | 940.60
Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | D | DET | 2002-03 | 934.30
Bryan Sr. "Hex" Hextall | RW | NYR | 1941-42 | 928.50
Joe "Burnaby Joe" Sakic | C | COL | 2001-02 | 927.00
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz | C | MTL | 1931-32 | 920.50
Frank "Raffles" Boucher | C | NYR | 1929-30 | 919.00
Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn | D | BOS | 1925-26 | 913.05
Tony "Tony O" Esposito | G | CHI | 1971-72 | 909.00
Jarome "Iggy" Iginla | RW | CGY | 2003-04 | 893.50

 

[Sergei Makarov]

1. Kharlamov
2. Firsov
3. Maltsev
4. Fetisov
5. Makarov
6. Krutov
7. V. Petrov
8. Mikhailov
9.Starshinov
10.Vikulov

 

[ck26]

Lemieux
Gretzky
Howe
Esposito
Lafleur
Ovechkin
Bobby Hull

Orr
Shore
Harvey

Hasek
Dryden

I can't really compare across positions but I tend to think one of Orr's Art Ross years puts him at the top. If Ovechkin pushes his team to the Finals this year, then I think he slides up between Howe and Esposito--he needs to either win a scoring title by more than a few points or mix in some Howe-style physical dominance to break into that top group.

 

[lazerbullet]

Depends how you define prime.

I usually think about 4-5 years as "prime" and 1-2 years as "peak".

 

[Boxscore]

As the topic states, I am going on prime and factoring in nothing else. I am looking at how great (and dominant) these players were at their very best (even if it was/is a small window). As lazer said above, I am going more with peak.

1. Orr

2. Gretzky

3. Lemieux

4. Howe

5. Hasek

6. Ovechkin

7. Lindros

8. Kharlamov

9. Richard

10. Tretiak

HM: Forsberg

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

As the topic states, I am going on prime and factoring in nothing else. I am looking at how great (and dominant) these players were at their very best (even if it was/is a small window). As lazer said above, I am going more with peak.

1. Orr

2. Gretzky

3. Lemieux

4. Howe

5. Hasek

6. Ovechkin

7. Lindros

8. Kharlamov

9. Richard

10. Tretiak

HM: Forsberg

Lindros and Forsberg have a single Art Ross (won by only a few points over non-HOFer Markus Naslund) and two Harts between them. I doubt either has had even a Top 30 prime. Well, maybe Lindros if you define "prime" to be as short as part of a season.

Guy Lafleur should be on everyone's list - probably higher than any non-goalie not named Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, or Howe. He dominated the NHL in both the regular season and playoffs for 6 straight years, and did absolutely nothing before or after.

 

[Boxscore]

Lindros and Forsberg have a single Art Ross (won by only a few points over non-HOFer Markus Naslund) and two Harts between them. I doubt either has had even a Top 30 prime.

Guy Lafleur should be on everyone's list - probably higher than any non-goalie not named Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, or Howe. He dominated the NHL in both the regular season and playoffs for 6 straight years, and did absolutely nothing before or after.

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically. In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically.

Lindros only broke 100 points ONCE, during the high scoring 95-96. Though he was on pace to do so in the lockout shortened season, but who knows if he would have remained healthy through 82 games.

In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

He was healthy in 1995, and couldn't even beat out a not-yet-in-his-prime Jagr for the Art Ross (he tied Jagr in points but lost the tiebreaker on goals). He was relatively healthy in 1996, and he couldn't hold Mario Lemieux's jock.

And besides, it's Lindros' own damn fault he missed so many games. Try playing with some hockey sense, Eric.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

Nothing eh? How about scoring goals at a high level, for one. That's a pretty big deal.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Eric Lindros

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically. In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

Eric Lindros:

http://www.hockey-reference.com/players/l/lindrer01.html

One 100+ point season, with games missed most seasons due to injury because no one was afraid to hit him. From his rookie season onward, players who were approximately the same size as him would bounce him around regularly. As for toughness, the hit on Anders Dackell, a much smaller player, typifies the alleged Eric Lindros toughness.

Peter Forsberg - definitely more talented than Eric Lindros but again in terms of a career nowhere near the complete package of a Jean Beliveau,Stan Mikita, Bobby Clarke, Henri Richard, Dave Keon, Steve Yzerman, Joe Sakic,Alex Delvecchio, Jean Ratelle, to name a few. Durability was a factor with Peter Forsberg.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically. In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

How about score over 30 goals?

Don't get me wrong, Forsberg is a great player, and one of my personal favorites, but never over 30 goals and never in the top 10 in the league in goal scoring is not good enough here. I know he played in the dead puck era and was a great playmaker, but when you're talking top 10 EVER, you should be listing guys that were elite at both goal scoring and playmaking.


EDIT: Ooops, looks like DevilMadeMe beat me to it on this one

 

[Canadiens Fan]

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically. In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

More dominant than Lafleur ???

In six years, Lafleur never scored less than 50 goals, in his entire career Forsberg never scored more than 30 in a season ....

To me, domination would include stuff like Hart Trophies, Art Ross', Stanley Cups, Conn Smythe's etc ...

A single 100 point season (Lindros), a single first team all-star nomination, or a single Hart Trophy, no Conn Smythe's, no Cups ... doesn't spell domination to me.

To his credit Forsberg made the first all-star team three times, but a single Hart, a single Art Ross, two 100 point season, two Cups, no Conn Smythes ... doesn't spell domination to me.

Over the six year period Lafleur was the best player in the NHL.

- six first team All-Star
- two Hart Trophies
- three Art Ross Trophies
- six fifty goal seasons
- six 100 point seasons
- one sixty goal season
- one Conn Smythe trophy
- four Stanley Cups

Aside from Gretzky, (and maybe Lemieux) ... no forward ever had a more dominant six year run.

Edit: Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who shook their head at the inclusion of Lindros and Forsberg in this thread.

 

[Boxscore]

People, there is more to hockey than just scoring goals and putting up points. Please tell me the day Lafleur played excellent two-way hockey and threw checks like Forsberg. He didn't. And, Lindros was a monster who could change/dominant a game with skill or pure physical intimidation. There is a lot more to hockey than just numbers... which is why players like Robinson and Stevens were better than Coffey.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Howe and Mikita

More dominant than Lafleur ???

In six years, Lafleur never scored less than 50 goals, in his entire career Forsberg never scored more than 30 in a season ....

To me, domination would include stuff like Hart Trophies, Art Ross', Stanley Cups, Conn Smythe's etc ...

A single 100 point season (Lindros), a single first team all-star nomination, or a single Hart Trophy, no Conn Smythe's, no Cups ... doesn't spell domination to me.

To his credit Forsberg made the first all-star team three times, but a single Hart, a single Art Ross, two 100 point season, two Cups, no Conn Smythes ... doesn't spell domination to me.

Over the six year period Lafleur was the best player in the NHL.

- six first team All-Star
- two Hart Trophies
- three Art Ross Trophies
- six 100 point seasons
- one Conn Smythe trophy
- four Stanley Cups

Aside from Gretzky, (and maybe Lemieux) ... no forward ever had a more dominant six year run.

Edit: Glad to see that I wasn't the only one who shook their head at the inclusion of Lindros and Forsberg in this thread.

Case may be made for Gordie Howe 1950 -56. Stan Mikita 1963-69.
Howe had more competition at RW while playing in a league that was more balanced than the post expansion NHL. Mikita had the numbers, the nominations and the hardware except for the key ones - SC and Conn Smythe.

 

[Canadiens Fan]

People, there is more to hockey than just scoring goals and putting up points. Please tell me the day Lafleur played excellent two-way hockey and threw checks like Forsberg. He didn't. And, Lindros was a monster who could change/dominant a game with skill or pure physical intimidation. There is a lot more to hockey than just numbers... which is why players like Robinson and Stevens were better than Coffey.

Did you ever see Lafleur play during those six seasons ??

You are correct that numbers sometimes don't tell the whole story. But when one speaks of domination, things like awards, all-star nominations etc ... do help to fill in the blanks.

 

[shazariahl]

Total NHL "HHOF Monitor PTS" 3 consecutive seasons

Player| POS |Franch| Last Seas. | Total NHL "HHOF PTS" (3 Cons. Seas.)
Wayne "The Great One" Gretzky| C | EDM | 1984-85 | 2057.00
Bobby "Number Four" Orr| D | BOS | 1971-72 | 1937.80
Guy "The Flower" Lafleur| RW | MTL | 1977-78 | 1727.50
Gordie "Mr. Hockey" Howe| RW | DET | 1953-54 | 1580.00
Phil "Espo" Esposito| C | BOS | 1973-74 | 1553.50
Dominik "The Dominator" Hasek| G | BUF | 1998-99 | 1511.00
Bobby "The Golden Jet" Hull| LW | CHI | 1965-66 | 1464.50
Stan "Stosh" Mikita | C | CHI | 1967-68 | 1400.00
Jaromir "Jags" Jagr | RW | PIT | 1999-00 | 1388.50
Jean "Le Gros Bill" Beliveau | C | MTL | 1956-57 | 1307.50
Eduard "Newsy" Lalonde | C | MTL | 1920-21 | 1235.00
Alexander "Ovie" Ovechkin| LW | WAS | 2008-09 | ~1230
Mario "The Magnificent" Lemieux | C | PIT | 1988-89 | 1225.00
Terry "Ukey" Sawchuk | G | DET | 1953-54 | 1194.00
Jacques "Jake The Snake" Plante | G | MTL | 1959-60 | 1168.50
Ken "Octopus" Dryden | G | MTL | 1977-78 | 1167.00
Charlie "Big Blue Bomber" Conacher | RW | TOR | 1935-36 | 1165.50
Maurice "The Rocket" Richard | RW | MTL | 1946-47 | 1135.50
Cecil "Babe" Dye | RW | TOR | 1922-23 | 1126.50
Bernie "Barnyard" Parent | G | PHI | 1975-76 | 1119.50
Evgeni "Gino" Malkin| C | PIT | 2008-09 | ~1100
Bill "The Mirror Man" Durnan | G | MTL | 1945-46 | 1098.50
Mike "The Boss" Bossy | RW | NYI | 1982-83 | 1084.50
Brett "The Golden Brett" Hull | RW | STL | 1991-92 | 1079.50
Joe "Phantom" Malone | C | HAM | 1919-20 | 1059.00
Clint "Praying Bennie" Benedict | G | OTT1 | 1920-21 | 1058.00
Bill Cook | RW | NYR | 1932-33 | 1056.50
Bryan "Trots" Trottier | C | NYI | 1979-80 | 1039.50
Eddie "The Edmonton Express" Shore | D | BOS | 1932-33 | 1016.65
Cy "The Cornwall Colt" Denneny | LW | OTT1 | 1924-25 | 1015.00
Dickie "Digging Dicker" Moore | LW | MTL | 1958-59 | 1012.00
Bobby "Clarkie" Clarke | C | PHI | 1975-76 | 997.00
Jari "The Flying Finn" Kurri | RW | EDM | 1986-87 | 989.50
Paul "Coff" Coffey | D | EDM | 1985-86 | 989.05
Leonard "Red" Kelly | D | DET | 1953-54 | 979.10
Aubrey "Dit" Clapper | D | BOS | 1940-41 | 971.20
Frank "Mr. Zero" Brimsek | G | BOS | 1940-41 | 965.50
Marcel "Little Beaver" Dionne | C | LA | 1980-81 | 963.00
Cecil "Tiny" Thompson| G | BOS | 1930-31 | 953.50
George "Buck" Boucher | D | OTT1 | 1923-24 | 951.30
Doug "Dallying Doug" Harvey | D | MTL | 1957-58 | 945.70
Ray "Bubba" Bourque | D | BOS | 1991-92 | 940.60
Nicklas "Lidas" Lidstrom | D | DET | 2002-03 | 934.30
Bryan Sr. "Hex" Hextall | RW | NYR | 1941-42 | 928.50
Joe "Burnaby Joe" Sakic | C | COL | 2001-02 | 927.00
Howie "The Stratford Streak" Morenz | C | MTL | 1931-32 | 920.50
Frank "Raffles" Boucher | C | NYR | 1929-30 | 919.00
Sprague "The Big Train" Cleghorn | D | BOS | 1925-26 | 913.05
Tony "Tony O" Esposito | G | CHI | 1971-72 | 909.00
Jarome "Iggy" Iginla | RW | CGY | 2003-04 | 893.50

I don't know how the HHOF points system works, but does Ovechkin really rank higher than Lemieux over a 3 season period? That is absolutely staggering. It would also mean I am both underestimating Ovechkin in this, and overestimating Lemieux

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't know how the HHOF points system works, but does Ovechkin really rank higher than Lemieux over a 3 season period? That is absolutely staggering. It would also mean I am both underestimating Ovechkin in this, and overestimating Lemieux

It's a formula based on points finishes and awards. Lemieux was losing out to Gretzky in his prime, so his numbers in the formula will look lower.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I don't know how the HHOF points system works, but does Ovechkin really rank higher than Lemieux over a 3 season period? That is absolutely staggering. It would also mean I am both underestimating Ovechkin in this, and overestimating Lemieux

The reason for Lemieux being ranked lower is because it is 3 CONSECUTIVE seasons and because he was losing awards to Gretzky some years (which he most definitely would have won had he been playing the last few years when Ovechkin won his).

EDIT: Beat me again DevilMadeMe! That's twice today!

 

[Sens Rule]

I disagree. When Lindros and Forsberg were at their peak, they were more dominant than Lafleur and many other players who had better careers than both of them.

At his best, Lindros was an absolute monster who was scoring 100+ points a year, while making his linemates better and brutally destroying players physically. In the early years, teams were terrified of #88. He was a hulk with top-end skills and mean streak as wide as his back. There may never be a player like Lindros again - Ovechkin is the closest, and he is not even near the animal Lindros was physically. If he stayed healthy (and avoided off-ice problems) he could have been the most dominant player of all-time. He had the physical tools and talent.

Forsberg was also a monster while at his best. His combination of skills, two-way play and checking was outright scary. There was NOTHING Forsberg couldn't do, nothing.

Lafleur was at the top for like 5 or 6 seasons. Lindros or Forsberg did neither. In all honesty Lafleur is all about his peak as the rest of his career is not nearly on the same level. Lafleur is ALL ABOUT HIS PEAK and not his career and his peak was better and longer than Forsberg's or Lindros.

Forsberg COULD NOT SCORE. It is the most important thing a forward really needs to do and he did not do it at a high level.

I like forsberg and I think he was great. But he was talked about as the BEST PLAYER for only a couple of years. Years where Gretzky was either really old or retired. When Mario was retired and when there was no obvious best player.

Forsberg is a lot more like Martin St. Louis or Iginla than he is like Lafleur or Mikita or something. He was the best when there was no one else that was an all-time great being their best. He is massively overrated on these boards because he was thought of as the very best player, for a short time when there were not that many other truly great forwards.

Clarke is world's better than Forsberg for a long time. But he faced Espo and Orr and Lafleur and many others. Still won I think 3 Harts but is so underrated while Forsberg is so overrated.

 

[Sens Rule]

People, there is more to hockey than just scoring goals and putting up points. Please tell me the day Lafleur played excellent two-way hockey and threw checks like Forsberg. He didn't. And, Lindros was a monster who could change/dominant a game with skill or pure physical intimidation. There is a lot more to hockey than just numbers... which is why players like Robinson and Stevens were better than Coffey.

There is more to hockey than goals. However this is the top ten peaks EVER. Gretzky NEVEr through a hit. A real hit EVER. He dominates everyone but maybe Orr here.

You want to include Robinson or Stevens in an All-time peak top 10 thread?

 

[Sens Rule]

I don't know how the HHOF points system works, but does Ovechkin really rank higher than Lemieux over a 3 season period? That is absolutely staggering. It would also mean I am both underestimating Ovechkin in this, and overestimating Lemieux

Mario always had the injuries. It makes it harder to assess him on 3 year terms. AO has 3 straight years of healthy utter dominance. It does not make me think he is better than Mario but I can understand why he is rated higher in a points system on a 3 year basis.