Top Canadian NHL Players Since Expansion - #12

[GlitchMarner]

Who's the 12th best Canadian NHL player since the 1967 NHL expansion?


*Only players who began their careers after 1967-1968 or played three or fewer complete seasons in the NHL before 1967-1968 are included as options.




#1. Wayne Gretzky
#2. Bobby Orr
#3. Mario Lemieux
#4. Sidney Crosby
#5. Patrick Roy
#6. Ray Bourque
#7. Phil Esposito
#8. Guy Lafleur
#9. Mark Messier
#10. Denis Potvin
#11. Bobby Clarke

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[amnesiac]

Brodeur
Sakic
Yzerman
Trottier
Robinson

add Iginla, Keith, Belfour

 

[bobholly39]

Voted Sakic over Brodeur - but could go either/or

I feel like Bossy is right there too

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

Voted Sakic over Brodeur - but could go either/or

I feel like Bossy is right there too

Bossy has no business going before Trottier.

 

[bobholly39]

Bossy has no business going before Trottier.

I think they're really close, and would have no problem with either/or. I'd even extend my list to include Yzerman, Robinson, Coffey as I think all those guys are on the same tier, it just comes down to personal preference.

Though I can't say it isn't ironic to see me promoting the pure goal-scorer and see you disagreeing and promoting the all-around center who played for Pittsburgh instead

 

[Addison Rae]

mike bossy is the most overrated player of all time

 

[KoozNetsOff 92]

I think they're really close, and would have no problem with either/or. I'd even extend my list to include Yzerman, Robinson, Coffey as I think all those guys are on the same tier, it just comes down to personal preference.

Though I can't say it isn't ironic to see me promoting the pure goal-scorer and see you disagreeing and promoting the all-around center who played for Pittsburgh instead

Difference is that they played on the same team and it's pretty obvious who was better.

Trottier: smythe, Calder, Ross, hart, 4x hart finalist, 5x top 5 hart

Bossy: smythe, Calder, 2x rocket, 1x hart finalist, 2x top 5 hart

 

[bobholly39]

Difference is that they played on the same team and it's pretty obvious who was better.

Trottier: smythe, Calder, Ross, hart, 4x hart finalist, 5x top 5 hart

Bossy: smythe, Calder, 2x rocket, 1x hart finalist, 2x top 5 hart

You really should apply some context here though

Does the Ross for Trottier even count as a positive when compared to Bossy? 134 points scoring high - compared to 147 for Bossy, who simply played in a year w/Gretzky vs without. Trottier scored above 111 points 3x. Bossy surpassed that total 7x

From 79 to 86, their respective primes (where they're the exact same age too):

Bossy - 689 games, 535 goals, 1051 points 1.53 PPG
Trottier - 678 games, 355 goals, 948 points, 1.40 PPG

Playoffs:

Bossy: 123 games 83 goals 72 assists 155 points 1.26 ppg
Trottier: 126 games, 52 goals, 138 points 1.10 ppg

Head to head Bossy does significantly better offensively.

I think it's fine if you value longevity a lot, or even defense a lot - to give Trottier the slight edge in a long run. But they are comparable players - and head to head Bossy did better.

 

[bobholly39]

mike bossy is the most overrated player of all time

He often gets overrated i agree. People say he's the best goal-scorer ever because of career gpg, which is idiotic. He's not even top 5. He is top 10 though.

But just because a player often gets overrated doesn't mean you have to underrate him all of a sudden. He 100% belongs in the next tier of players.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Here's how Trottier and Bossy fared in Hart voting for the ten years they overlapped:

• 1978 - Trottier 2nd (behind peak Guy Lafleur), Bossy <10 points
• 1979 - Trottier won the Hart, Bossy <10 points
• 1980 - Trottier <10 points, Bossy nothing
• 1981 - Bossy 4th, Trottier <10 points
• 1982 - Trottier 2nd (behind peak Gretzky), Bossy 3rd
• 1983 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1984 - Trottier 3rd, Bossy 6th
• 1985 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1986 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1987 - neither player got votes

In five of the ten seasons, at least one of the players got >10 voting points. Trottier was ahead in four of those five years (finished 1st, 2nd to peak Gretzky, 2nd, and 3rd vs Bossy finishing 3rd, 4th and 6th).

Bossy was better at picking up a small number of votes in years when Trottier was shutout, but I'm not too impressed by that. For example, in 1983 Bossy got a single 3rd place vote. He got three votes (out of 60 ballots) in 1986, and four votes (out of 61 ballots) in 1985.

I understand that Bossy had better numbers but, at the time, the people who were watching them play generally agreed that Trottier was better. The difference in their two-way play is significant (longevity, of course, also goes in Trottier's favour).

All that being said - this speaks to the bias in Hart voting against defensemen. Potvin was short-changed big time.

 

[slapKing]

Voted for Sakic. Amazing peak, great prime and longevity. Big time player in the playoffs and international stage.

 

[MessierII]

Coffey

 

[jetsforever]

Brodeur

 

[bobholly39]

Here's how Trottier and Bossy fared in Hart voting for the ten years they overlapped:

• 1978 - Trottier 2nd (behind peak Guy Lafleur), Bossy <10 points
• 1979 - Trottier won the Hart, Bossy <10 points
• 1980 - Trottier <10 points, Bossy nothing
• 1981 - Bossy 4th, Trottier <10 points
• 1982 - Trottier 2nd (behind peak Gretzky), Bossy 3rd
• 1983 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1984 - Trottier 3rd, Bossy 6th
• 1985 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1986 - Bossy <10 points, Trottier nothing
• 1987 - neither player got votes

In five of the ten seasons, at least one of the players got >10 voting points. Trottier was ahead in four of those five years (finished 1st, 2nd to peak Gretzky, 2nd, and 3rd vs Bossy finishing 3rd, 4th and 6th).

Bossy was better at picking up a small number of votes in years when Trottier was shutout, but I'm not too impressed by that. For example, in 1983 Bossy got a single 3rd place vote. He got three votes (out of 60 ballots) in 1986, and four votes (out of 61 ballots) in 1985.

I understand that Bossy had better numbers but, at the time, the people who were watching them play generally agreed that Trottier was better. The difference in their two-way play is significant (longevity, of course, also goes in Trottier's favour).

All that being said - this speaks to the bias in Hart voting against defensemen. Potvin was short-changed big time.

I think the wild fluctuation in competition in those years makes trying to compare hart finishes a bit skewed.If we were to rank their best seasons head to head in those years, who ends up ahead? Bossy outscores him by a lot - the hart finishes may not be representative of that with Gretzky and Oilers emerging.
Bossy also outscored Trottier a lot in the playoffs, for goals especially, but also points, during their years competing.

1982 is a good example of hart finishes that seem to raise questions.

Trottier finishes 2nd, Bossy 3rd. Trottier had 129 points, 50 goals, +70 and 0 selke votes.
Bossy finishes 3rd, but had 64 goals, 147 points, + 69 and also no Selke votes.

Is Trottier landing ahead warranted? 18 points less, much less goals, no selke recognition either/or, so i don't know how much we should point to defense.

Bossy finished 6th or higher in the scoring race 8x. (2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6)
Trottier did this 4x. (1, 2, 5, 6)

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I think the wild fluctuation in competition in those years makes trying to compare hart finishes a bit skewed.If we were to rank their best seasons head to head in those years, who ends up ahead? Bossy outscores him by a lot - the hart finishes may not be representative of that with Gretzky and Oilers emerging.
Bossy also outscored Trottier a lot in the playoffs, for goals especially, but also points, during their years competing.

1982 is a good example of hart finishes that seem to raise questions.

Trottier finishes 2nd, Bossy 3rd. Trottier had 129 points, 50 goals, +70 and 0 selke votes.
Bossy finishes 3rd, but had 64 goals, 147 points, + 69 and also no Selke votes.

Is Trottier landing ahead warranted? 18 points less, much less goals, no selke recognition either/or, so i don't know how much we should point to defense.

Bossy finished 6th or higher in the scoring race 8x. (2, 4, 4, 4, 5, 5, 6, 6)
Trottier did this 4x. (1, 2, 5, 6)

My overall comment is the difference in their two-way play is significant. I agree that Bossy was better at generating offense, but he was merely adequate defensively. Trottier was probably 90% as good offensively, but excellent defensively (a perennial Selke contender in another era - see below).

For 1982 specifically - it's tough to prove it statistically since they almost always played together at even-strength (so their plus/minus is nearly identical) but Trottier was much more defensively responsible. And he played a lot on the PK (which was one of the strongest in the league), while Bossy had hardly any PK duties. I don't think it's unreasonable to say that really good two-way play is worth 18 points.

As for why Trottier didn't contend for the Selke - that trophy was first awarded in 1978. In the beginning, it truly was designed for unsung, bottom six forwards who had (for the era) low point totals. The trophy was literally designed to recognize Bob Gainey - and that influence is obvious. From 1978 to 1992 (nearly all of Trottier's career), the average Selke winner averaged 49 points (low for that high-scoring era). By the mid 90's, it was given to high-scoring, two-way forwards (Fedorov, Gilmour, Francis), but not elite defensive role players (as was originally the case). Then it morphed back to recognizing low-scoring defensive players during the Dead Puck Era (Lehtinen, Madden, Draper, Peca - though a lot of times they won it when they had a career year offensively).

More recently (post lockout), many of the Selke winners are very strong offensively (Datsyuk finished 4th, 4th and 26th for his trophies; Kopitar was 7th and 12th; Toews was 13th; Kesler was 15th; Brind'Amour was 24th, O'Reilly was 31st).

My point is - the criteria for awarding the Selke trophy has changed over time. Now we're used it in going to a high-scoring, defensively responsible two-way forward. In Trottier's time, it almost always went to a bottom six player focused solely on defense (Gainey, Carbonneau types). Trottier's offense effectively disqualified him (averaging 118 points a year over five years will do that). But if the Selke was award then the way it was now, he may have walked away with three Selke's.