Top 50 Playoff Players of All-Time

[Starchild74]

I realize that it's tough putting together one of these lists, and I'm kind of a jerk for criticizing without offering one of my own.

-But Patrick Roy one spot under Ray Bourque for playoff performances? Sandwiched between Billy Smith and Grant Fuhr among goalies? I don't get it.

-Scott Niedermayer over Scott Stevens and Nicklas Lidstrom is indefensible.

-Tony Esposito a top 50 playoff performer? The reason he's usually left off lists of Top 100 players of all time is because of his poor playoff showings.

Patrick Roay was one of the greatest goalies ever but Ray Bourque carried the Bruins to 2 Stanley Cup finals. For a defenceman to do this is very very hard. THeir are so many intagibles for players over goalies. I mean it is hard comparing player vs player when they play the same position let alone when they play different positions. However I am in the minority here but Roy's accomplishemnts which they are major accomplishments were made by a goalie whoe rarely ever played against the best in the playoffs. Not taking anything away from him. Roy only beat one team in the Finals that had ever done anything in the playoffs the 2001 Devils. Other then that he never beat the best he just won. Now of course that is not his fault but a guy like Smith beat the Oilers and Flyers and a very good North Stars team. Grant Fuhr beat the Flyers twice and the Islanders.

Billy Smith won 4 cups in a row. Won 19 playoff series in a row. Only losing to the Oilers in that strecth after beating them a year before. I tried to put inot account a whoe career. Roy never won back to back cups. He never even went to the Finals in back to back years. Smith in my opinon although not the greates goalie ever never gets is just do. Also Smith was one of the first goalies in the modern day era who was a true leader for his team. Also the term money goalie was meant for him

Scott Niedermayer was a major part of the Devils wins and the Ducks win. He could change a series around with his great defensive play or his offence. All three are great but I do not think Niedermayer gets the credit he should have. He should have won a few norris trophies

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Scott Niedermayer was a major part of the Devils wins and the Ducks win.

Not really. He was a good secondary player in 1995, 2000, and 2001, but I don't know how "major" he was. He wasn't even a consensus top 2 defenseman on the team in any of those years. Daneyko was just as important in 1995 IMO, and its certainly arguably whether Rafalski or Niedermayer was more important in 2000 or 2001. And that's just among defensemen. He was Smythe-worthy in 2003 and 2007, but really nothing special before 2003, in years that the Devils did well or years that they lost.

He could change a series around with his great defensive play or his offence.

From 2003-2007, he could. Stevens and Lidstrom could change series around for much longer periods of time.

All three are great but I do not think Niedermayer gets the credit he should have. He should have won a few norris trophies

When should he have gotten a Norris trophy other than the one he won (in an off-year by Lidstrom, mind you)? Lidstrom was better at both ends of the ice than Niedermayer in every season after the Norris win, and Niedermayer really wasn't anything special in the regular season before the Norris win.

 

[reckoning]

Without putting a ton of thought into it, my initial top 10 would be:

1. Maurice Richard
2. Patrick Roy
3. Wayne Gretzky
4. Gordie Howe
5. Bobby Orr
6. Turk Broda
7. Denis Potvin
8. Ted Kennedy
9. Doug Harvey
10. Terry Sawchuk

 

[overpass]

Tom Awad of Puck Prospectus has released GVT for the playoffs going back to 1944.

I'm not sure how he handles differing numbers of playoff rounds. His article here discusses a couple of different ways he looked at it, but I don't know if the numbers here are normalized for length of playoffs or not. Probably not, looking at the results, so modern players are overrepresented. Also, there are limitations to a purely statistical ranking, especially in the playoffs when data is more limited and strength of opposition varies so widely.

That said, here are the results.

Rk|Player|GVT
1 | Patrick Roy | 117.8
2 | Wayne Gretzky | 113.4
3 | Mark Messier | 85.0
4 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 79.4
5 | Ed Belfour | 70.0
6 | Peter Forsberg | 69.9
7 | Joe Sakic | 68.8
8 | Paul Coffey | 67.4
9 | Jari Kurri | 66.5
10 | Brett Hull | 65.7
11 | Ray Bourque | 65.0
12 | Jaromir Jagr | 63.9
13 | Jean Beliveau | 62.9
14 | Billy Smith | 61.7
15 | Sergei Fedorov | 61.6
16 | Gordie Howe | 60.4
17 | Steve Yzerman | 59.8
18 | Al MacInnis | 58.8
19 | Glenn Anderson | 57.7
20 | Mario Lemieux | 57.5
21 | Ken Dryden | 57.5
22 | Chris Chelios | 57.1
23 | Martin Brodeur | 56.5
24 | Larry Robinson | 55.4
25 | Dominik Hasek | 55.3
26 | Maurice Richard | 55.1
27 | Doug Gilmour | 54.8
28 | Denis Potvin | 54.6
29 | Larry Murphy | 54.1
30 | Sergei Zubov | 51.9
31 | Scott Stevens | 51.2
32 | Mike Modano | 50.3
33 | Claude Lemieux | 50.1
34 | Chris Pronger | 47.9
35 | Jacques Plante | 46.9
36 | Mike Bossy | 46.7
37 | Brad Park | 46.5
38 | Brendan Shanahan | 46.0
39 | Brian Rafalski | 45.2
40 | Patrik Elias | 45.1
41 | Denis Savard | 44.6
42 | Jacques Lemaire | 44.1
43 | Scott Niedermayer | 43.8
44 | Stan Mikita | 42.7
45 | Adam Oates | 42.6
46 | Bryan Trottier | 42.3
47 | Phil Esposito | 42.2
48 | Curtis Joseph | 42.2
49 | Guy Lafleur | 42.0
50 | Bernie Geoffrion | 41.8

Roy and Gretzky are a clear top 2, matching the consensus here.

Ed Belfour at #5 is interesting. 75% of his GVT came from 1995 to 2000.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Tom Awad of Puck Prospectus has released GVT for the playoffs going back to 1944.

I'm not sure how he handles differing numbers of playoff rounds. His article here discusses a couple of different ways he looked at it, but I don't know if the numbers here are normalized for length of playoffs or not. Probably not, looking at the results, so modern players are overrepresented. Also, there are limitations to a purely statistical ranking, especially in the playoffs when data is more limited and strength of opposition varies so widely.

That said, here are the results.

Rk|Player|GVT
1 | Patrick Roy | 117.8
2 | Wayne Gretzky | 113.4
3 | Mark Messier | 85.0
4 | Nicklas Lidstrom | 79.4
5 | Ed Belfour | 70.0
6 | Peter Forsberg | 69.9
7 | Joe Sakic | 68.8
8 | Paul Coffey | 67.4
9 | Jari Kurri | 66.5
10 | Brett Hull | 65.7
11 | Ray Bourque | 65.0
12 | Jaromir Jagr | 63.9
13 | Jean Beliveau | 62.9
14 | Billy Smith | 61.7
15 | Sergei Fedorov | 61.6
16 | Gordie Howe | 60.4
17 | Steve Yzerman | 59.8
18 | Al MacInnis | 58.8
19 | Glenn Anderson | 57.7
20 | Mario Lemieux | 57.5
21 | Ken Dryden | 57.5
22 | Chris Chelios | 57.1
23 | Martin Brodeur | 56.5
24 | Larry Robinson | 55.4
25 | Dominik Hasek | 55.3
26 | Maurice Richard | 55.1
27 | Doug Gilmour | 54.8
28 | Denis Potvin | 54.6
29 | Larry Murphy | 54.1
30 | Sergei Zubov | 51.9
31 | Scott Stevens | 51.2
32 | Mike Modano | 50.3
33 | Claude Lemieux | 50.1
34 | Chris Pronger | 47.9
35 | Jacques Plante | 46.9
36 | Mike Bossy | 46.7
37 | Brad Park | 46.5
38 | Brendan Shanahan | 46.0
39 | Brian Rafalski | 45.2
40 | Patrik Elias | 45.1
41 | Denis Savard | 44.6
42 | Jacques Lemaire | 44.1
43 | Scott Niedermayer | 43.8
44 | Stan Mikita | 42.7
45 | Adam Oates | 42.6
46 | Bryan Trottier | 42.3
47 | Phil Esposito | 42.2
48 | Curtis Joseph | 42.2
49 | Guy Lafleur | 42.0
50 | Bernie Geoffrion | 41.8

Roy and Gretzky are a clear top 2, matching the consensus here.

Ed Belfour at #5 is interesting. 75% of his GVT came from 1995 to 2000.

Roy and Gretzky top 2 by a wide margin fits our perceptions, so that is good. The top 12 players not playing an NHL game before 1980 is definitely bad.

It would be interesting to see this list better normalized between eras.

Edit: Brodeur over Stevens shows that the model doesn't completely work within an era IMO. I rank Brodeur over Stevens overall (20-30 range vs. 50-70 range), but in the playoffs, Stevens was frankly better.

 

[overpass]

Roy and Gretzky top 2 by a wide margin fits our perceptions, so that is good. The top 12 players not playing an NHL game before 1980 is definitely bad.

It would be interesting to see this list better normalized between eras.

Edit: Brodeur over Stevens shows that the model doesn't completely work within an era IMO. I rank Brodeur over Stevens overall (20-30 range vs. 50-70 range), but in the playoffs, Stevens was frankly better.

Yeah, I don't think playoff GVT estimates defensive contributions very well. I don't see how it could, the data just isn't sufficient. It's probably better for comparing forwards and goaltenders.

 

[Hardyvan123]

You are right? I forgot Bobby Hull I would have to put him at 13 and of course that means take out Murphy. Also It was suppose to be Sakic at #14 and Yzerman at #17

Maybe it's just me but the gap between Forsberg and Sakic is way too big IMO with Joe being at 14 and Forsberg at 50 in the revised Bobby Hull list.

Plus 47 to plus 9 really stands out, although plus/minus is often the msot misleading stat, it surely still means something.

An earlier point was brought up about Forsberg's style of play that allowed him to rack up points in the easy rounds, not really sure what that was all about.

Although I'm not a fan, Glenn Anderson is lower on this list than I thought he would be.

Just a couple of general comments not having put together a complete list myself, although I think a playoff list becomes much more subjective than an all time lists as we have seen in the Stevens/Lidstrom debate so far.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

 

[IggyFan12]

Roy won 3 Con-Smyths in 3 different decades(80s 90s 00s) and the only reason he didnt win a fourth was the amazing playoff Sakic had in 96. No one will ever duplicate this again.

 

[Padan]

Maybe it's just me but the gap between Forsberg and Sakic is way too big IMO with Joe being at 14 and Forsberg at 50 in the revised Bobby Hull list.

Plus 47 to plus 9 really stands out, although plus/minus is often the msot misleading stat, it surely still means something.

Sakic was getting the more difficult defensive assignments.

 

[Infinite Vision*]

Maybe it's just me but the gap between Forsberg and Sakic is way too big IMO with Joe being at 14 and Forsberg at 50 in the revised Bobby Hull list.

Plus 47 to plus 9 really stands out, although plus/minus is often the msot misleading stat, it surely still means something.

An earlier point was brought up about Forsberg's style of play that allowed him to rack up points in the easy rounds, not really sure what that was all about.

Although I'm not a fan, Glenn Anderson is lower on this list than I thought he would be.

Just a couple of general comments not having put together a complete list myself, although I think a playoff list becomes much more subjective than an all time lists as we have seen in the Stevens/Lidstrom debate so far.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

I always hear how overrated Forsberg is, yet he's criminally underrated by the people in this section, who are basically the only people who's opinions have merit when making all-time comparisons. Sort of puzzling.

 

[BraveCanadian]

I always hear how overrated Forsberg is, yet he's criminally underrated by the people in this section, who are basically the only people who's opinions have merit when making all-time comparisons. Sort of puzzling.

How so?

This is a guy who never scored more than 30 goals in a season.

Try to find another supposed all-time great center that played in the modern era who didn't top 30 goals.. even the "playmakers"

The reason why Forsberg gets brought back down to Earth on the history boards is because he gets way too much credit for what he *might* have done. He played his whole career in his prime and people extrapolate that too much. (although he did battle injuries)


Based on what he did, yes he was a great player.. but some of the comparisons that get thrown around are crazy.

Sakic was better in the playoffs than Forsberg.

He won the Conn Smythe when the Avs won it all and Forsberg was playing. He also won it all when Forsberg wasn't playing.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

I always hear how overrated Forsberg is, yet he's criminally underrated by the people in this section, who are basically the only people who's opinions have merit when making all-time comparisons. Sort of puzzling.

In the last HOH Top 100 he was rated 65th, just below Seibert, Makarov, Horton, Moore, and Cleghorn, and just above Joliat, Denneny, Mikhailov, Kurri, and Kennedy. That's some pretty good company right there.

Do you really think this is underrating a guy that in the modern era only played 700 games, only played more than 70 games 5 times, and never scored over 30 goals?

There's no one that's even close to Forsberg in the rankings that has those kind marks against them. The guys that made that list obviously gave Forsberg his due.

 

[overpass]

Sakic was getting the more difficult defensive assignments.

Not when the Avs played the Wings from 96 to 98. Sergei Fedorov and the Russian 5 were the main shutdown unit for Detroit, and Bowman matched them primarily against Forsberg, not Sakic

How so?

This is a guy who never scored more than 30 goals in a season.

Try to find another supposed all-time great center that played in the modern era who didn't top 30 goals.. even the "playmakers"

The reason why Forsberg gets brought back down to Earth on the history boards is because he gets way too much credit for what he *might* have done. He played his whole career in his prime and people extrapolate that too much. (although he did battle injuries)

Based on what he did, yes he was a great player.. but some of the comparisons that get thrown around are crazy.

Sakic was better in the playoffs than Forsberg.

He won the Conn Smythe when the Avs won it all and Forsberg was playing. He also won it all when Forsberg wasn't playing.

This thread is about playoff performances. Forsberg scored 64 goals in 151 playoff games, or 35 per 82 games. There's nothing wrong with that from a great playmaking centre playing against playoff teams in a low scoring era.

 

[BraveCanadian]

This thread is about playoff performances. Forsberg scored 64 goals in 151 playoff games, or 35 per 82 games. There's nothing wrong with that from a great playmaking centre playing against playoff teams in a low scoring era.

Yes and Sakic scored at a 40 goal pace over 82 in his playoff career and had almost the same ppg despite playing past his prime.

And he won the Conn Smythe.. and won a 2nd Stanley Cup with Forsberg in the press box.

So he was quite a bit better in the playoffs.

 

[overpass]

Yes and Sakic scored at a 40 goal pace over 82 in his playoff career and had almost the same ppg despite playing past his prime.

And he won the Conn Smythe.. and won a 2nd Stanley Cup with Forsberg in the press box.

So he was quite a bit better in the playoffs.

I'm not going to get into the Sakic/Forsberg thing now. Just pointing out how ridiculous it is that the "Forsberg never scored more than 30 goals in a season" argument gets brought up in a thread about playoff performance.

 

[DayWalk3r]

How so?

This is a guy who never scored more than 30 goals in a season.

Try to find another supposed all-time great center that played in the modern era who didn't top 30 goals.. even the "playmakers"

As one has pointed out already, this is talk about the playoffs, not the regular season.

Forsberg increased his scoring when it mattered the most, the playoffs. He is in fact 41st all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. He has more goals per game in the playoffs than any of the guys listed below etc. (And remember, Forsberg was a playmaker first and foremost.)

Sergei Fedorov, Brendan Shanahan, Steve Yzerman, Gilbert Perreault, Bobby Orr, Michel Goulet, Joe Nieuwendyk, Mats Sundin, Glenn Anderson, Teemu Selanne, Bill Barber, Daniel Briere, Steve Larmer, Andy Bathgate, Denis Savard, Peter Bondra, Pat LaFontaine, Lanny McDonald, Stan Mikita, Darryl Sittler, Frank Mahovlich, Chris Drury, Mike Gartner, Claude Lemieux, Jeremy Roenick, Doug Gilmour, Mike Modano, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, Alexander Mogilny, John LeClair and many, many more didn't come up to the goals per game average Forsberg had in the playoffs.

* Forsberg is 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers, the dynasty years)

* He's 7th all-time in points per game in the playoffs, and 3rd all-time in adjusted points per game in the playoffs (<75 GP)

* He has two scoring titles in the playoffs despite missing the finals. (only player in history to do so)

 

[BraveCanadian]

Forsberg increased his scoring when it mattered the most, the playoffs. He is in fact 41st all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. He has more goals per game in the playoffs than any of the guys listed below etc. (And remember, Forsberg was a playmaker first and foremost.)

True he did seem to rachet up a notch in the playoffs which is awesome.

Sergei Fedorov, Brendan Shanahan, Steve Yzerman, Gilbert Perreault, Bobby Orr, Michel Goulet, Joe Nieuwendyk, Mats Sundin, Glenn Anderson, Teemu Selanne, Bill Barber, Daniel Briere, Steve Larmer, Andy Bathgate, Denis Savard, Peter Bondra, Pat LaFontaine, Lanny McDonald, Stan Mikita, Darryl Sittler, Frank Mahovlich, Chris Drury, Mike Gartner, Claude Lemieux, Jeremy Roenick, Doug Gilmour, Mike Modano, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, Alexander Mogilny, John LeClair and many, many more didn't come up to the goals per game average Forsberg had in the playoffs.

* He's 7th all-time in points per game in the playoffs, and 3rd all-time in adjusted points per game in the playoffs (<75 GP)

All the per game stats don't mean a thing when a guy only played in his prime on strong teams for the most part. The reason he beats a lot of those people on your list is because they actually played more than 18 playoff games after the age of 30.

Also, many of those guys wouldn't be in the top 50 to start with so they also don't help his case.

* Forsberg is 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers, the dynasty years)

And while Forsberg was great defensively we can see immediately how valuable the +/- stat as an individual stat by the list you provide there.

* He has two scoring titles in the playoffs despite missing the finals. (only player in history to do so)

This actually is impressive as an individual accomplishment in scoring.

 

[Epsilon]

As one has pointed out already, this is talk about the playoffs, not the regular season.

Forsberg increased his scoring when it mattered the most, the playoffs. He is in fact 41st all-time in goals per game in the playoffs. He has more goals per game in the playoffs than any of the guys listed below etc. (And remember, Forsberg was a playmaker first and foremost.)

Sergei Fedorov, Brendan Shanahan, Steve Yzerman, Gilbert Perreault, Bobby Orr, Michel Goulet, Joe Nieuwendyk, Mats Sundin, Glenn Anderson, Teemu Selanne, Bill Barber, Daniel Briere, Steve Larmer, Andy Bathgate, Denis Savard, Peter Bondra, Pat LaFontaine, Lanny McDonald, Stan Mikita, Darryl Sittler, Frank Mahovlich, Chris Drury, Mike Gartner, Claude Lemieux, Jeremy Roenick, Doug Gilmour, Mike Modano, Bryan Trottier, Bobby Clarke, Alexander Mogilny, John LeClair and many, many more didn't come up to the goals per game average Forsberg had in the playoffs.

* Forsberg is 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers, the dynasty years)

* He's 7th all-time in points per game in the playoffs, and 3rd all-time in adjusted points per game in the playoffs (<75 GP)

* He has two scoring titles in the playoffs despite missing the finals. (only player in history to do so)

This gets brought up a lot but I find it actually weakens Forsberg's case: his best playoff performances were in years where the Avalanche failed to win the Stanley Cup, or even make the finals. On the other hand, in one of their two Stanley Cup victories Forsberg didn't even play in the later rounds.

 

[overpass]

* Forsberg is 6th all-time in +/- in the playoffs, behind only players like Gretzky, Kurri, Gregg, Anderson and Huddy (all of them linemates in the 80's Oilers, the dynasty years)

According to my rough calculations, the Avalanche were +47 as a team in the playoffs from 1995 to 2004. Peter Forsberg was +47 over that time, meaning that they were even without him. Joe Sakic was +9 over that time, so if you assume that Sakic and Forsberg never played together, the team was -9 without Forsberg or Sakic.

Forsberg is tied with Mark Howe in playoff plus-minus. Which made me wonder: Are there any players who haven't won a Stanley Cup who would have a shot at this top 50 list? Mark Howe and his teammate Brian Propp were excellent playoff performers who never won a Cup, and there have been others.

 

[Padan]

Not when the Avs played the Wings from 96 to 98. Sergei Fedorov and the Russian 5 were the main shutdown unit for Detroit, and Bowman matched them primarily against Forsberg, not Sakic

My bad, I meant that Sakic was relied on in more defensive situations than Forsberg (and therefore was on the ice for more goals against which affected his plus/minus-rating).

 

[overpass]

My bad, I meant that Sakic was relied on in more defensive situations than Forsberg (and therefore was on the ice for more goals against which affected his plus/minus-rating).

Sure, I know what you're saying. A lot of other people have said it too, so I'm not just jumping on you. And I agree that the role a player plays certainly affects his plus-minus.

It's interesting to note that from 1996 to 1998 - the period I mentioned where Forsberg was the player that the Wings were keying on - Forsberg was +7 in the playoffs, and Sakic was +15. From 1999-2004, Forsberg was +38 and Sakic was -2. So it's possible that their roles changed from the late 90s to the early 00s. They certainly changed in the area of penalty killing, where Forsberg started off as the preferred penalty killer but then Sakic took over around 1999.

I just don't think that Sakic and Forsberg's different roles can entirely explain the massive gap in plus-minus.

 

[redbull]

It may not be the majority opinion, but a solid case can be made for Billy Smith being the best clutch netminder ever. To be sure, most would likely go with Roy, but it's not nearly as radical as you imply.

I agree about T. Esposito, BTW.

Mario Lemieux, spring of '91 and '92, was the single most memorable playoff perfromer I ever saw. A man among children.

if you consider not JUST playoff accomplishments by a player and/or a team but also include how a player RAISED THEIR GAME in the playoffs then you have a strong case for Billy Smith who was better in EACH of the four cups than he was in those regular seasons - by a large margin.

It's tough to determine, especially statistically.

Mike Bossy, for example, scored at a slower rate in the playoffs than the regular season, but all players do since the level of competition is higher, games are tighter, time and space constrained, etc.

Scoring goals in the post season is significantly more difficult, giving those goals much higher relative importance to team success than those meaningless goals in december.

The ability to rise to the occasion in the playoffs, consistently (not Chris Kontos or Fernando Pisani, sorry) is the most valuable "metric" that is most difficult to determine, if not impossible.

Goalies tend to get a lot of accolades for playoff performances, and rightly so (save for this most recent playoff) but I wouldn't underestimate great offensive performances either....to your Mario Lemieux point. Watching replayed games of Mario in that brief (while healthy) playoff performance is incredible, complete on-ice dominance, almost single-handedly.

I also think 99 gets less credit than he deserves. He made everyone around him a threat to a level I have NEVER seen, not even close.

I'd make a case for the whole Islanders team from '80 - '83 - every player seemed to play their best when the games mattered most.

 

[reckoning]

Are there any players who haven't won a Stanley Cup who would have a shot at this top 50 list?

Norm Ullman, Cam Neely and Dale Hunter would likely all be on a top 100 list. Top 50 is tough to say. When you actually try to make one of these lists, you realize 50 is a very small number and after the obvious choices are on it there's not a lot of room for many others.

 

[ecemleafs]

Not much love for Leetch here....averaged over a point per game in the playoffs and won a Smythe. Can't really fault him for not being in the playoffs after 97 until 04, with the Rangers being so bad and mismanaged.

 

[MXD]

Would it be completely wacky to have Bernard Geoffrion in the Top-10?