Top 25 under 25 #7

[Dion TheFluff]

Due to Jones and Rantanen being I may create a separate poll for them and place them 7th and 8th accordingly once that poll of finished.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

I’ll take Jones but that could change in a few years if Rantanen turns into something REALLY special. He already is but more-so...

No big deal but I'd have Jones ahead of Eichel and Pastrnak, right there with Mackinnon and Matthews. I expect him to be up near a point per game and with his dominance at both ends, for 25-30 minutes a night, a forward would have to be much better than a point per game to be at Jones' level. And to be honest I wouldn't take a brat like Eichel over him even if Eichel scores 100 pts.

A brat?

I’m fine with anyone picking Jones, I disagree but not by a large amount but at least be accurate. You haven’t been following the guy very much if that’s your perception of him.

He’s a guy no teammate or ex teammate has ever said a bad word about, who’s rivals even are friends with him and since becoming captain has a team that’s doing very well under his leadership. Even if he had an attitude in his rookie year which is arguable but a common misunderstanding that’s swept behind him now ....,he’s matured a great deal and he even blamed himself for his teams offensive woes last year which is ridiculous seeing as he created 33 percent of it despite missing 20 percent of the year. That shows accountability and he is happier when his teammates do well. When he’s on the bench when his team scores (which is not very often) he jumps up and is more excited then basically anyone else. Wears this term on his sleeve especially since being a C.

What’s most important though is he’s been our hardest working player almost every night like a true captain should be and not just skill like the other years. He’s even improved his defensive game and is not even a minus player anymore, with all the ice time he gets and what buffalo is defensively, it’s night and day to what he used to be. So not sure where the brst thing comes from. And if you mention bylsma, show proof. No one wanted him around anyway, team needed a change and there doing pretty well considering.

Mitch Marner is criminally underrated. That is all.

I’ve been saying this for a long time. But I don’t see how a leaf could ever be that underrated at the end of the day in the true sense given the major spotlight and given how often he’s talked about on tv shows every day, especially with Matthews being out the spotlight goes to Marner often.

Just because there’s so many good young players isn’t a slap to Marner but more so that it’s just that, there’s so many good young players.

 

[major major]

I’ll take Jones but that could change in a few years if Rantanen turns into something REALLY special. He already is but more-so...





A brat?

I’m fine with anyone picking Jones, I disagree but not by a large amount but at least be accurate. You haven’t been following the guy very much if that’s your perception of him.

He’s a guy no teammate or ex teammate has ever said a bad word about, who’s rivals even are friends with him and since becoming captain has a team that’s doing very well under his leadership. Even if he had an attitude in his rookie year which is arguable but a common misunderstanding that’s swept behind him now ....,he’s matured a great deal and he even blamed himself for his teams offensive woes last year which is ridiculous seeing as he created 33 percent of it despite missing 20 percent of the year. That shows accountability and he is happier when his teammates do well. When he’s on the bench when his team scores (which is not very often) he jumps up and is more excited then basically anyone else. Wears this term on his sleeve especially since being a C.

What’s most important though is he’s been our hardest working player every night like a true captain and not just skill like the other years. He’s even improved his defensive game and is not even a minus player anymore, with all the ice time he gets and what buffalo is defensively, it’s night and day to what he used to be. So not sure where the best thing comes from. And if you mention bylsma, show proof. No one wanted him around anyway, team needed a change and there doing pretty well considering.





I’ve been saying this for a long time. But I don’t see how a leaf could ever be h debated given the major spotlight and given how often he’s talked about on tv shows every day, especially with Matthews being out the spotlight goes Marner often.

Just because there’s so many good young players isn’t a slap to Marner but more so that it’s just that, there’s so many good young players.

If what you say is true and he's grown that much, that's great. I'm sure he'll move up in my estimation over time.

 

[Tage2Tuch]

If what you say is true and he's grown that much, that's great. I'm sure he'll move up in my estimation over time.

That’s cool and it is. Ask sabres fans who from my experience tell it like it is most of the time. That’s the thing, teams fans generally hate who they think is overpaid or whatever else.

I’ve seen multiple sabres fans complain before about his contract (until realizing it’s for 8 years and how the caps going up and everything else) or his work ethic attitude runours but I first noticed it half way through the year then at the end of the year locker room clean out.

Even this year instead of wearing his emotion on his sleeve and slamming his stick on the net if the other term seals the win that way (which he’d do all the time) he grips it and almost goes to then remembers “oh yeah I’m The leader” and he’s held back from even things like that to being the first person in practice, making sure his whole team leaves the bench before him with a fist bump. Etc


I like Jones though, can’t argue against a dman like that they’re truly special.

I watched Jones the other night against I think Dallas? And he was just so good.

 

[Pierce Hawthorne]

I don't actually want to get into the nuts and bolts of what I intended to convey by my post (which is why I concluded with "that is all"), but I felt compelled to respond to this specious monstrosity nonetheless. For one, a statistical argument could absolutely be leveled in favor of Marner over one or more of the players already selected above him (or Rantanen / Jones). But, for another, the criteria for determining "better" can--in the absence of explicit constraints--be sufficiently generic that simply unpacking "better" in a selective fashion could alone support my claim, i.e. without any further evidence (e.g. some type of predictive criteria based on subjective factors like the eye test). You are of course free to your opinion, but your words ring hollow when you essentially assert what you're presumably trying show, with your only evidence taking the form of some unpleasant admixture of an appeal to authority and an ad hominem attack. So while it's possible that objective arguments on aggregate even favour your view, I couldn't help but respond to this dubious post.

f***ing hilarious.


Essentially what you're saying is you're a massive homer who thinks Marner should be ranked above players that he quite clearly is inferior to and that you have absolutely no factual evidence to support your outlandish comments.

 

[Zamuz]

Mitch Marner is criminally underrated. That is all.

So would you put him ahead of some of these players? I think the list is 100% accurate so far.

 

[hector morrison]

Mitch Marner is criminally underrated. That is all.

Maybe by fans of opposing teams,but certainly not players and coaches They are respecting his ability more now..His status will likely continue to grow ,as will several other fine young players.

 

[hector morrison]

Rielly?

Gotta be on that list...he's 24 but playing lights-out so far.

 

[PhilJets]

Voted Jones but I’m surprised Laine doesn’t have more votes. I don’t think people realize how rare it is for a player to get as many goals as he has in his first couple of seasons.

His not producing at the beginning of the year at his normal clip.
But his goal output still a shade under .5/g
He should turn it around and go on a scoring streak.

Voting has recency bias.

The player has the 2nd most goals in the league the last 2 years since he entered.

 

[PhilJets]

Voted Jones but I’m surprised Laine doesn’t have more votes. I don’t think people realize how rare it is for a player to get as many goals as he has in his first couple of seasons.

His not producing at the beginning of the year at his normal clip.
But his goal output still a shade under .5/g
He should turn it around and go on a scoring streak.

Voting has recency bias.

The player has the 2nd most goals in the league the last 2 years since he entered at that age.

 

[Shayne Corsi]

****ing hilarious.


Essentially what you're saying is you're a massive homer who thinks Marner should be ranked above players that he quite clearly is inferior to and that you have absolutely no factual evidence to support your outlandish comments.

That's not at all what I'm saying lol. And I find it ironic that you haven't put forward a single objective argument of your own, yet seem to have no problem viciously attacking me and simply asserting that I'm wrong about something that I never myself explicitly asserted.

In any case, while I would be the first to concede that I have, at best, a cursory knowledge of hockey statistics (advanced or otherwise), I took a quick peek at hockey-reference.com just for the hell of it. Here's what I see when I compare Mitch Marner with, say, Jack Eichel.

Mitch Marner, Career:

PPG: 0.871
Corsi: 51.4%
Fenwick: 49.9%

Jack Eichel, Career:

PPG: 0.863
Corsi: 48.6%
Fenwick: 48.5%

It's particularly noteworthy that Marner is actually slightly ahead on career numbers despite being six months younger and having been physically very immature when he came into the league (which would presumably exacerbate the impact of his youngest aged seasons on his career numbers). I'm just not seeing a player who is "quite clearly inferior," though I'm certain more compelling statistical arguments can be made in support of both sides.

For the record, people seem to be piping in pretty frequently with their hot takes on so and so "snubbed" player in this series of threads ... not sure why mine elicited such an extreme reaction.

 

[Panthaz89]

That's not at all what I'm saying lol. And I find it ironic that you haven't put forward a single objective argument of your own, yet seem to have no problem viciously attacking me and simply asserting that I'm wrong about something that I never myself explicitly asserted.

In any case, while I would be the first to concede that I have, at best, a cursory knowledge of hockey statistics (advanced or otherwise), I took a quick peek at hockey-reference.com just for the hell of it. Here's what I see when I compare Mitch Marner with, say, Jack Eichel.

Mitch Marner, Career:

PPG: 0.871
Corsi: 51.4%
Fenwick: 49.9%

Jack Eichel, Career:

PPG: 0.863
Corsi: 48.6%
Fenwick: 48.5%

It's particularly noteworthy that Marner is actually slightly ahead on career numbers despite being a draft class younger and having been physically very immature when he came into the league (which would presumably exacerbate the impact of his youngest aged seasons on his career numbers). I'm just not seeing a player who is "quite clearly inferior," though I'm certain more compelling statistical arguments can be made in support of both sides.

For the record, people seem to be piping in pretty frequently with their hot takes on so and so "snubbed" player in this series of threads ... not sure why mine elicited such an extreme reaction.

You realize Marner was busy not playing in the NHL while Eichel was playing on a complete torn apart team in his rookie season right? the PPG are incredibly skewed by Eichel's rookie season and the Sabres have been dead or near dead last in goals scored basically every year and he has kept basically a PPG since his sophomore season. Their both from the 2015 draft class btw....Eichel just started his NHL career at 18 he didn't have the luxury of playing minors to ease him in.

 

[MackAttack26]

That's not at all what I'm saying lol. And I find it ironic that you haven't put forward a single objective argument of your own, yet seem to have no problem viciously attacking me and simply asserting that I'm wrong about something that I never myself explicitly asserted.

In any case, while I would be the first to concede that I have, at best, a cursory knowledge of hockey statistics (advanced or otherwise), I took a quick peek at hockey-reference.com just for the hell of it. Here's what I see when I compare Mitch Marner with, say, Jack Eichel.

Mitch Marner, Career:

PPG: 0.871
Corsi: 51.4%
Fenwick: 49.9%

Jack Eichel, Career:

PPG: 0.863
Corsi: 48.6%
Fenwick: 48.5%

It's particularly noteworthy that Marner is actually slightly ahead on career numbers despite being six months younger and having been physically very immature when he came into the league (which would presumably exacerbate the impact of his youngest aged seasons on his career numbers). I'm just not seeing a player who is "quite clearly inferior," though I'm certain more compelling statistical arguments can be made in support of both sides.

For the record, people seem to be piping in pretty frequently with their hot takes on so and so "snubbed" player in this series of threads ... not sure why mine elicited such an extreme reaction.

Context is a fun thing.

Like, for example, how Eichel played after his draft year and his numbers are lower as a result while Marner went back to juniors.

Orrrr how Eichel played on horrid teams while Marner played on a playoff Leafs squad. This is especially important to note when using raw fenwick and corsi, Mr. Corsi.

I like Marner...terrific player. He should go here soon. But please don't use skewed stats to make an arguement. Thanks.

 

[turkeyslurpees]

How tf did Jones lose this?

 

[Shayne Corsi]

Context is a fun thing.

Like, for example, how Eichel played after his draft year and his numbers are lower as a result while Marner went back to juniors.

Orrrr how Eichel played on horrid teams while Marner played on a playoff Leafs squad. This is especially important to note when using raw fenwick and corsi, Mr. Corsi.

I like Marner...terrific player. He should go here soon. But please don't use skewed stats to make an arguement. Thanks.

Sure, but their numbers look somewhat comparable at the same ages and, as ever, context can qualify the trajectories of either player (i.e. not sure why you imply that Eichel is privileged here). For instance, Marner is 6 months younger, and is extremely small/slight/physically immature for an NHL player. He also spent plenty of time playing alongside pretty mediocre linemates, and was not infrequently relegated to 4th line "punishment" duty by Babcock. And my argument wasn't meant to show that Marner is definitely better, only that he isn't "clearly inferior."

I took a quick look at Rantanen's career numbers and it's a similar story. I'm just not seeing a player who is so obviously better that it's absurd to even suggest that the order could be swapped. In any case, I'm growing weary of this conversation. Guess we'll just have to wait and see how the next few seasons play out and reassess.

 

[SHANNYPLAN]

Jones
Raantanen
Marner
Barzal
Laine

 

[Backcheckmonster3]

Rantanen won this by a fair margin, still OP needs an extra poll to overturn it, seems weird.

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

Man oh man people love to stat whore

A winger over a #1 dman who scores near 50

 

[Zamuz]

Man oh man people love to stat ****e

A winger over a #1 dman who scores near 50

they're close

are you disagreeing with the fact they're close or is Jones much better in your opinion?

 

[Hischier and Hughes]

they're close

are you disagreeing with the fact they're close or is Jones much better in your opinion?

Wouldnt those be one in the same?

Jones has been better and is better and the position of defense is disgustingly underrated when being compared toforwards (and we know why that is, aka points)

Jones scores 50+ and is a top 3 defender defensively, hes got size and leadership qualities. He is better in every sense

 

[Minnesota Wild]

Rantanen won this by a fair margin, still OP needs an extra poll to overturn it, seems weird.

He was right though as the re-poll has Jones ahead by quite a bit.

 

[Zamuz]

Wouldnt those be one in the same?

Jones has been better and is better and the position of defense is disgustingly underrated when being compared toforwards (and we know why that is, aka points)

Jones scores 50+ and is a top 3 defender defensively, hes got size and leadership qualities. He is better in every sense

Can't bypass the fact Rantanen leads the entire NHL in scoring. 3 points is a pretty fair margin already

 

[Backcheckmonster3]

Due to Jones and Rantanen being I may create a separate poll for them and place them 7th and 8th accordingly once that poll of finished.

Around 10 votes apart OP does this
He gets his agenda pushed and Jones goes 7th. Here you are with a list of top 7 under 25. This list does NOT include Rantanen. So valuable is this little list.

OP why did you stop at 7th? 40 points in 24 games could maybe even bring Rantanen a top 10 spot here on your little list.

 

[Backcheckmonster3]

With the amount of young talented players entering the league over the past 3 years or so, I thought it be fun/interesting to make a top 25 under 25 list as voted by the people of HFBoards so here we are!

For the consistency of the poll I will be using Sept 15th 2019 as a cutoff date for players to be eligible to be voted for in the poll (if a player is 24 right now but turns 25 before the Sept 15th cutoff then he will be deemed ineligible to be added to the poll)

Will also be doing a vote in add system

1) McDavid
2) MacKinnon
3) Matthews
4) Barkov
5) Pastrnak
6) Eichel​

Yet you stopped at 7? Where are the rest? At least places 8-10. "Great" list so far .

 

[The Moose is Loose]

Jones should have been #2.

30 minute future Norris winner who has the potential to score 70+ is worth more than anyone bar McDavid.