Top 25 players since Gary Bettman was named commissioner

[kmad]

nor do all centers. And unless my math skills fail me, the hypothetical probabilities of getting on the all-star team as a center and as a defenseman would rise proportionally with the size of the league.

I don't know about that. Your math is right, but you're ignoring the fact that the best players will always be the best players, regardless of the size of the league.

Bourque would be Bourque in a 6, 12, 30, or 60 team league.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't know about that. Your math is right, but you're ignoring the fact that the best players will always be the best players, regardless of the size of the league.

Bourque would be Bourque in a 6, 12, 30, or 60 team league.

Oh yeah, I fully agree with that, I was just going with the originally argued viewpoint.

 

[kmad]

Oh yeah, I fully agree with that, I was just going with the originally argued viewpoint.

Ah, yeah, I'm not following this thread very closely.

 

[Hawkey Town 18]

nor do all centers. And unless my math skills fail me, the hypothetical probabilities of getting on the all-star team as a center and as a defenseman would rise proportionally with the size of the league.

Yes, the ratio of Centers to Defenseman will remain the same no matter how many teams are in the league, it just so happens that with 30 teams all the numbers are nice and round.

 

[Hardyvan123]

I don't know about that. Your math is right, but you're ignoring the fact that the best players will always be the best players, regardless of the size of the league.

Bourque would be Bourque in a 6, 12, 30, or 60 team league.

Except that Bourque would be playing with different players and coaches and perhaps even different situations in a different sized league.

Maybe our perception of him would not change too much but can that truly be said of every player, even the great ones?

Look at what happened to two of the all time greats in Makarov and Fetisov when they came over from Russia or some of the Bruins, Phil Espostio, being the best example there.

Henrik Sedin probably never get the chance to be a number 1 center in a 6 team NHL today either, never mind a scoring champ.

 

[Hardyvan123]

1. Mario Lemieux
2. Dominik Hasek
3. Jaromir Jagr
4. Nicklas Lidstrom
5. Joe Sakic
6. Martin Brodeur
7. Steve Yzerman
8. Patrick Roy
9. Brett Hull
10. Chris Chelios
11. Chris Pronger
12. Sergei Fedorov
13. Joe Thornton
14. Peter Forsberg
15. Teemu Selanne
16. Eric Lindros
17. Scott Stevens
18. Al MacInnis
19. Alexander Ovechkin
20. Sidney Crosby
21. Brendan Shanahan
22. Ray Bourque
23. Jarome Iginla
24. Mike Modano
25. Mark Recchi

It's hard to quantify parts of peoples' careers. MacInnis vs. Stevens was difficult for me.

I like this list but to me it's unfair to lsit goalies with postion players so I'll take the original list.

One caveat, I would not put Lemuiex number 1 though as he only has 338 games in 8 seasons during the time listed and only had 3 full seasons of 76,70,67 games with his next highest total being 43 games.

He probably makes the list still but not sure how high, maybe lower teens or in the 20's

 

[Hardyvan123]

I still think Selanne was the better pure goal scorer. Selanne did not get to play with anyone the caliber of Mario Lemieux either.

If Selanne and Kariya had a better centerman they would have recorded even better numbers, and Selanne could have very well won an Art Ross.

Sakic wasn't clearly better, maybe a better playmaker, but not the better goal scorer, which is still the number one stat imo, when were looking at forwards. and you can't really compare playoff stats, when Selanne has had very limited chance to play in the playoffs. and the only time he's made it to the playoffs with a cup contender (avs) he was playing injured, or at the tail-end of his career with the new ducks. But yeah i guess it is safe to say forsberg and Sakic had better playoffs, but they had a alot more opportunities to play in them as well.

If Selanne played on a team during his prime like the rangers, penguins or avalanche he would have undoubtedly put up huge playoff numbers too. but he never had the chance, so we'll never know.

As well. Yzerman would undoubtedly be way higher up on the list if the list started at the 87/88 season... but this thread is 92/93 and up, therefore Yzerman is further down.

yeah, maybe there's no justification for stamkos on there, but one 51 goal season, and the start of this season, make me feel he can be on this list more justifiably than any other ultra young star in the NHL right now- and since i didn't cuttoff the list at 2008 or anything, might as well add another player who is playing right now.

I agree a lot with what you are saying here but Stamkos is pre mature after 2 seasons no matter how you slice it.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So what's this thread really about? Ranking the top-25 players since expansion? Or trying to put Selanne ahead of players he has no business being ahead of?

Without a second thought, he needs to at least be behind Roy, Hasek, Brodeur, Lemieux, Jagr, Sakic, Forsberg, Fedorov, Bourque, Lidstrom, Pronger, Ovechkin, and Crosby.

Guys like MacInnis, Messier, Yzerman, Coffey, Oates, Hull, Stevens, Gilmour, Gretzky are definitely better, but probably achieved too much of their best years prior to 1993 to be considered.

Guys like Iginla, Thornton, Niedermayer, Belfour, Lindros, Shanahan are debatable.

guys like Bure, Kovalchuk, Malkin, Heatley, Stamkos, Gonchar, Kariya aren't close.

I think the OP's list is interesting and so is his question. who cares about his motives, he could be selanne's mother for all I care.

The question simply is who are the 25 best players based on what they have done from 93 to today.

Obviously star players who have played the entire time should be considered higher than players who have shorter track records in this time period but so what?

 

[seventieslord]

I like this list but to me it's unfair to lsit goalies with postion players so I'll take the original list.

One caveat, I would not put Lemuiex number 1 though as he only has 338 games in 8 seasons during the time listed and only had 3 full seasons of 76,70,67 games with his next highest total being 43 games.

He probably makes the list still but not sure how high, maybe lower teens or in the 20's

He's still got three scoring titles and two Harts in that time - who has more?

 

[Hardyvan123]

Very much so agree.

Its very easy to overlook a player by mistake or to not be educated about stuff that happened a decade or even decades ago.

Which is why I had to point out the hypocrisy. We all make mistakes but some people think they don't.

I agree here as well as most guys just can't or don't have the 10 hours or so to honestly evaluate every player on ever list they post on.

Just looked at guys with the most total points from 93 onwards and one could take the starting point of the top 50 point scorers then devise a top 25 players from that list. then a person would have to break down each players seasons and playoffs and context to make a definitive top 25 list.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/pla...val=&c4stat=&c4comp=gt&c4val=&order_by=points

Interestingly Lemieux was 100th due to the small number of games played in the given time frame.

For the record without having enough time to make my own definitive list Seventies lord list is the best one I have seen so far.

 

[Hardyvan123]

He's still got three scoring titles and two Harts in that time - who has more?

We are still talking about overall value over 17 seasons, no doubt Lemiux has the Peak and Harware and some impressive playoff scoring stats but his small number of games knocks him out of the top IMO.

Put another way do you want Lemieux for his 338 games in this time period or a guy like Lidstrom and his 1248 games on your franchise?

The way I look at it the small number of games slides Lemiuex down on this list and especially spread out over 8 seasons.

If he does all of that in 4 seasons along with his playoffs stats then I could see him in the AO, Crosby range but that's why I slide him down on my list.

 

[Derick*]

We are still talking about overall value over 17 seasons, no doubt Lemiux has the Peak and Harware and some impressive playoff scoring stats but his small number of games knocks him out of the top IMO.

Put another way do you want Lemieux for his 338 games in this time period or a guy like Lidstrom and his 1248 games on your franchise?

The way I look at it the small number of games slides Lemiuex down on this list and especially spread out over 8 seasons.

If he does all of that in 4 seasons along with his playoffs stats then I could see him in the AO, Crosby range but that's why I slide him down on my list.

So if he had done that over the course of 15 seasons, that'd be better, and if he had done it over the course of 4, that'd be better, but over the course of 8 makes it bad.

 

[seventieslord]

Put another way do you want Lemieux for his 338 games in this time period or a guy like Lidstrom and his 1248 games on your franchise?
.

Lidstrom for sure - that's why I had him at #1!

 

[Hardyvan123]

Lidstrom for sure - that's why I had him at #1!

One of the reasons your list is the best one listed in this thread although I might quibble with some of the order but I honestly haven't had time to make a definitive list.

 

[Hardyvan123]

So if he had done that over the course of 15 seasons, that'd be better, and if he had done it over the course of 4, that'd be better, but over the course of 8 makes it bad.

No what I'm saying is that if he had done it like in the last 4 seasons, similar to what AO and Crosby have done instead of spread out over 8 seasons then he would have had a larger impact in the seasons he played in and view more favorably to me on this list.

And on any list like this guys who have played more seasons at a top level have to be treated as having more value than anyone who has played in a 1/4 of the games available.

Lemieux's value just like Gretzky and some others just isn't that high on this particular list under the criteria given.

 

[Starchild74]

THis is a very tough list to make. But here goes

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Niklas Lidstrom
3. Joe Sakic
4. Chris Pronger
5. Peter Forsberg
6. Mark Recchi
7. Mario Lemieux
8. Sergei Federov
9. Chris Chelios
10. Mike Modano
11 Rob Blake
12. Teemu Selanne
13. Mats Sundin
14. Joe Thornton
15. Ray Bourque
16. Alexander Ovechkin
17. Sidney Crosby
18. Steve Yzerman
19. Ron Francis
20. Brett Hull
21. Jeremy Roenick
22. Eric Lindros
23. Pavel Bure
24. Scott Neidermayer
25. Daniel Alfredsson

Even though Lemieux didn't play more It is just too hard to put him anywhere less then where I put him. Tired to put emphasis too on those who played the whole time but at times it is just really hard

Have to say that at number 25 it was a toss up with Alfredsson, Shanahan, Iginla and Leetch

 

[Derick*]

THis is a very tough list to make. But here goes

1. Jaromir Jagr
2. Niklas Lidstrom
3. Joe Sakic
4. Chris Pronger
5. Peter Forsberg
6. Mark Recchi
7. Mario Lemieux
8. Sergei Federov
9. Chris Chelios
10. Mike Modano
11 Rob Blake
12. Teemu Selanne
13. Mats Sundin
14. Joe Thornton
15. Ray Bourque
16. Alexander Ovechkin
17. Sydney Crosby
18. Steve Yzerman
19. Ron Francis
20. Brett Hull
21. Jeremy Roenick
22. Eric Lindros
23. Pavel Bure
24. Scott Neidermayer
25. Daniel Alfredsson

Even though Lemieux didn't play more It is just too hard to put him anywhere less then where I put him. Tired to put emphasis too on those who played the whole time but at times it is just really hard

Have to say that at number 25 it was a toss up with Alfredsson, Shanahan, Iginla and Leetch

I'm sorry, you just lost all credibility. You may as well delete your HFBoards account and try to start a new one.

On second thought, I called Perron Parros like ten straight times the other day. Who am I to talk.

 

[kmad]

I'm sorry, you just lost all credibility. You may as well delete your HFBoards account and try to start a new one.

It was Recchi in 6th that did it for me.

 

[Starchild74]

Can't believe I made the mistake typing Crosby's name lol really late

I put Recchi that high because he played the whole time. Was at an elite level for quite a while and was significant in the playoffs.

Between 1993-2010 Mark Recchi is 5th in that span for regular season stats in the playoffs during that time he is 15th meanwhile only getting past the first round aproximately 55% of the time.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Mark Recchi over Sergei Fedorov and Scott Stevens has to count as revisionist history.

 

[Starchild74]

It was Recchi in 6th that did it for me.

Right this coming from a guy who when talking about the years of 1993 to 2010 puts Lemieux number 1 and if you take away your goalies Yzerman would be the 5th best forward in that span. Really Yzerman number 5. Better in this time period then Federov and Forsberg. Really?

Now I am not saying my list is perfect as this is a tough list to do really. However if we are talking about careers then yes I would take Yzerman over alot of these players on my list but when you consider in the regular season he wasn't an elite player and it is basically his playoff stats that make him better then his regular season. Adding to the fact that while he was apparently really great according to your list. Remember he was not even the best Center on his team in the mid 90's that was Federov

 

[Starchild74]

Mark Recchi over Sergei Fedorov and Scott Stevens has to count as revisionist history.

I wanted to put Federov higher as I feel he was one of the best two way forwards. His peak was very high but then he fell pretty hard. He just didn't seem to maintain his high level of play for very long. Now Recchi was never at the level of Federov however he was pretty consistent

I didn't know where to put Stevens. Playoffs wise he is great and his regualr season is good too but I had to leave someone out. But of course if you take Stevens whole career agianst some of these players then he truly is higher alot higher on the greatest players of all time list.

 

[jkrx]

All of them had their best seasons post-1992 with the exception of Recchi, who was still a top-20 scorer too many times for me to ignore. Yzerman had one great offensive season post-1992.

As far as I know this was top 25 players not statistical leaders and I'll say that Yzermans Smythe and leadership beats out any guy with one or two ASTs in their belt.

 

[jkrx]

Right this coming from a guy who when talking about the years of 1993 to 2010 puts Lemieux number 1 and if you take away your goalies Yzerman would be the 5th best forward in that span. Really Yzerman number 5. Better in this time period then Federov and Forsberg. Really?

Now I am not saying my list is perfect as this is a tough list to do really. However if we are talking about careers then yes I would take Yzerman over alot of these players on my list but when you consider in the regular season he wasn't an elite player and it is basically his playoff stats that make him better then his regular season. Adding to the fact that while he was apparently really great according to your list. Remember he was not even the best Center on his team in the mid 90's that was Federov

Yes, Fedorov was ranked higher, in terms of producing, for about 3 or 4 seasons.

 

[Sens Rule]

I like this list but to me it's unfair to lsit goalies with postion players so I'll take the original list.

One caveat, I would not put Lemuiex number 1 though as he only has 338 games in 8 seasons during the time listed and only had 3 full seasons of 76,70,67 games with his next highest total being 43 games.

He probably makes the list still but not sure how high, maybe lower teens or in the 20's

He also has 3 scoring titles, 4 seasons leading the NHL in ppg, and a 5th where he was 2nd in ppg. He has a season with 69 goals in 60 games and another with 69 goals in 70 games. Two 160 point seasons, one of which was in 60 games and could be the best offensive season in History including all of Mario and Gretzky's seasons. 3 50 goal seasons.

I have 398 games for Mario not 338. 282 goals in 398 games.

I would have Hasek 1st and Mario 2nd since 92/93. Jagr 3rd and Lidstrom 4th.