Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 9

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 12th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 14th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 15th.


Vote 9 Candidates

• Alexei Kasatonov
• Dale Hawerchuk
• Hod Stuart
• Hooley Smith
• Jacques Laperriere
• Johnny Bucyk
• Mike Modano
• Patrice Bergeron
• Paul Kariya
• Sweeney Schriner
• Syd Howe
• Tiny Thompson
• Vladimir Petrov

Click to read more...

 

[Professor What]

I only count 13 names this time. There must have been a big gap on the composite list.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Patrice Bergeron showing up before Shea Weber or Victor Hedman makes me very uncomfortable.

That being said, I guess he’s an interesting comparable for Modano, Smith, Howe.

Kariya, Schriner, Hawerchuk being the other side of that coin.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Only adding 2 players?

 

[Professor What]

This is a tiny smidge ahead of where I had Petrov, but what does his appearance say about Kasatonov's presence now? I'm still looking for Krutov.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

This is a tiny smidge ahead of where I had Petrov, but what does his appearance say about Kasatonov's presence now? I'm still looking for Krutov.

You can find him at #127.

 

[Professor What]

You can find him at #127.

Yeah... Way too little sleep is catching up with me...

 

[ted2019]

Patrice Bergeron showing up before Shea Weber or Victor Hedman makes me very uncomfortable.

That being said, I guess he’s an interesting comparable for Modano, Smith, Howe.

Kariya, Schriner, Hawerchuk being the other side of that coin.

In my eyes, Bergeron is a top 150 player. Without talking about his 11 top 5 Selke finishes in a row, he is getting putting up even more points now then he did when he was younger. Bergeron's 35.9% of his total points come from Special teams (PP 280 SH 40). His playoff numbers are just shy of his regular season numbers ( .80 PPG in 1110 games) (.744 PPG in 149 games in the playoffs). Top 5 Hart once ( 5 top 18 of his career). He's been better then Weber in his career and Hedman is closer then Weber to me.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I swear I need to set a weekly reminder to vote on my phone

In my eyes, Bergeron is a top 150 player. Without talking about his 11 top 5 Selke finishes in a row, he is getting putting up even more points now then he did when he was younger. Bergeron's 35.9% of his total points come from Special teams (PP 280 SH 40). His playoff numbers are just shy of his regular season numbers ( .80 PPG in 1110 games) (.744 PPG in 149 games in the playoffs). Top 5 Hart once ( 5 top 18 of his career). He's been better then Weber in his career and Hedman is closer then Weber to me.

Well yeah of course he is, he's playing Pastrnak and Marchand on the the best line in hockey.

Besides his 1 top 5 finish the rest of those finishes are totally meaningless, in 18-19 he was 15th. 4 people had him on their ballots

Edit:

Bergeron AST: 4, 5, 8, 8, 9

Weber AST: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7

Double Edit: Without talking about his Selke finishes?!?! Without those he wouldn't even make our aggregate top 220 list

 

[ted2019]

I swear I need to set a weekly reminder to vote on my phone



Well yeah of course he is, he's playing Pastrnak and Marchand on the the best line in hockey.

Besides his 1 top 5 finish the rest of those finishes are totally meaningless, in 18-19 he was 15th. 4 people had him on their ballots

Edit:

Bergeron AST: 4, 5, 8, 8, 9

Weber AST: 1, 1, 3, 3, 5, 6, 7, 7

Double Edit: Without talking about his Selke finishes?!?! Without those he wouldn't even make our aggregate top 220 list

So it's his fault that he is good enough to be playing on the top line in hockey and be penalized for it at the same time?

 

[ResilientBeast]

So it's his fault that he is good enough to be playing on the top line in hockey and be penalized for it at the same time?

That's a disingenuous argument.

Just talking about how his scoring has gone up in the second half of his career blindly doesn't mean anything.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7 YEAR	10 YEAR
Sweeney Schriner	112.5	102.2	100.0	86.4	86.4	85.1	66.7	60.5	50.0	47.4	91.3	79.7
John Bucyk	128.9	89.4	82.4	82.1	81.5	80.2	76.1	73.2	73.1	72.3	88.7	83.9
Dale Hawerchuk	96.3	92.6	92.4	84.5	84.3	77.4	74.5	73.4	71.7	70.1	86.0	81.7
Paul Kariya	94.4	91.5	90.8	90.0	80.2	77.9	69.8	66.7	63.3	61.3	84.9	78.6
Syd Howe	100.0	100.0	86.0	81.8	76.4	75.0	67.9	64.8	63.2	61.4	83.9	77.7
Mike Modano	87.5	86.2	85.6	81.7	77.5	76.1	75.7	72.6	67.5	66.4	81.5	77.7
Hooley Smith	95.0	93.2	88.0	86.0	65.5	60.5	57.4	54.3	48.4	46.9	78.0	69.5
Patrice Bergeron	76.4	71.3	68.9	68.1	66.0	64.0	61.8	61.4	59.6	57.7	68.0	65.5
Jacques Laperriere	43.0	39.7	38.5	32.5	29.8	29.0	28.6	25.7	22.1	17.8	34.4	30.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Hooley Smith		1	1	1				3
Paul Kariya		1					2	3
Syd Howe			1	1	1			3
Mike Modano							2	2
Dale Hawerchuk		1						1
Sweeney Schriner			1					1
Tiny Thompson				1				1
Patrice Bergeron					1			1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never received a non-trivial number of votes - Bucyk, Laperriere

Players who weren't eligible for the Hart - Kasatonov (effectively), Petrov, Stuart

Norris trophy summary

There was just one Norris-eligible defenseman - Laperriere (who finished 1st, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 5th 5th, and 6th - I missed that 6th place finish when I posted this last week).

I haven't been posting Selke trophy records but it should be noted that Bergeron has the best results in "history" (going back to the creation of the award in 1978). He tied Gainey with the most wins but has more years than any other player in the top three and top five.

 

[The Macho King]

I actually have some time for Bergeron here. He has an argument for being a top 5 defensive forward of all-time, and even a good argument to be in the top 3 with Nighbor and Clarke. Nighbor and Clarke obviously bring more offense and they're rated to count for that.

Also Hedman still not being here is a travesty far worse than anything the Royals did to Meghan Merkle but alas.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I actually have some time for Bergeron here. He has an argument for being a top 5 defensive forward of all-time, and even a good argument to be in the top 3 with Nighbor and Clarke. Nighbor and Clarke obviously bring more offense and they're rated to count for that.

Non-rhetorical question: can this be backed up with anything other than his Selke record?

 

[The Macho King]

Non-rhetorical question: can this be backed up with anything other than his Selke record?

His possession numbers have been bonkers his whole career. I am sure we can also look at GA/82 and see that as well.

Also - Boston has made three deep runs and he has looked great each time, including a four game sweep of the Pens where Crosby and Malkin were in their prime yet invisible.

 

[ResilientBeast]

I actually have some time for Bergeron here. He has an argument for being a top 5 defensive forward of all-time, and even a good argument to be in the top 3 with Nighbor and Clarke. Nighbor and Clarke obviously bring more offense and they're rated to count for that.

Also Hedman still not being here is a travesty far worse than anything the Royals did to Meghan Merkle but alas.

Was Bergeron ever the best center in the league at any point of time? That's where this comparison falls apart for me, defensive C he certainly was but overall? I don't think he was ever better than Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos.

Clarke and Nighbor definitely had a peak where they were the best in the league at the time.

 

[The Macho King]

Was Bergeron ever the best center in the league at any point of time? That's where this comparison falls apart for me, defensive C he certainly was but overall? I don't think he was ever better than Crosby/Malkin/Stamkos.

Clarke and Nighbor definitely had a peak where they were the best in the league at the time.

Of course he wasn't - but that's why we're discussing him in the 130s and not the 40s.

Some objective metrics:
Career face off percentage of 58.3% (with numerous seasons of over 60%)
Career Corsi For percentage of 57.6% (with numerous seasons in the 60s - early career seems to drag him down a bit here)
Almost 900 points in 1100+ games - that's good production
40 short-handed points (18 goals, 22 assists)
Third for active players in +/- (I know but just putting it out there)

More advanced metrics like xG and otherwise are also very strong for him (expected +/- of +77.6 since 2015 seems pretty high to me).

Playoff production is similar to his RS production - 111 points in 149 games. The year they won the Cup he had 20 points in 23 games, and the other Cup runs he was 15p/22g and 17p/24g. Numerous other quality runs as well and a career +44 in 149 games, so playoffs has to be a strong plus for him (especially when compared to guys like Kariya). 4 OT goals in the playoffs is also strong as well.

In 2012-13 - in 42 games (lockout season) he was on the ice for 17 goals against. Total. That includes PP, PK, and EV, empty net goals and all of that (4 of his GA were while he was on the PK). Through his entire career he has been on the ice for a total of 917 goals in 1111 games. If you take out his first few seasons (before he was a defensive specialist) and start from 2009 to present? 655 in 872 games for a guy who plays on the PP, PK, even, when up one at the end of the game and when down one at the end of the game.

He's a well rounded player, but I think the wisdom of Bergeron being the best defensive player of the generation is one he has earned. And I am FAR from a Boston homer saying this.

Edit: And I should expand. He's not Nighbor and Clarke level (as reflected in the fact that they've been gone ages ago). He's also not Carbonneau or Gainey either. This guy can score. Yeah it helps being on a great line, but he's certainly part of the reason why that line is great.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Edit: And I should expand. He's not Nighbor and Clarke level (as reflected in the fact that they've been gone ages ago). He's also not Carbonneau or Gainey either.

This is what I'm struggling with in trying to place him. Clearly he's somewhere between Clarke and Carbonneau, but it's not clear which one he's closer to.

I will say this much: I didn't realize till I looked at the stats just now how much better of a goal scorer Bergeron is than Clarke. Clarke has a huge advantage in overall points, because Clarke generated a ton of assists. But there might be something worth looking at in terms of how those points were generated, and if maybe the gap is exaggerated.

 

[The Macho King]

This is what I'm struggling with in trying to place him. Clearly he's somewhere between Clarke and Carbonneau, but it's not clear which one he's closer to.

I will say this much: I didn't realize till I looked at the stats just now how much better of a goal scorer Bergeron is than Clarke. Clarke has a huge advantage in overall points, because Clarke generated a ton of assists. But there might be something worth looking at in terms of how those points were generated, and if maybe the gap is exaggerated.

I think Modano and Bergeron become an interesting comparison here. Modano's p/g are higher than Bergeron's, but not by a ton. And Bergeron doesn't have the late 80s/early 90s scoring environment to boost his numbers.

Defensively I think you would agree there's no competition - it's Bergeron in a walk. Playoffs are probably somewhat similar as far as team success, and I think their production is probably roughly equal.

So if it's close offensively, not close defensively, and equal-ish playoffs, is there an argument for Modano over Bergeron? Bergeron also has some significant international success to boot (although I think playing on Team Canada in this environment means that shouldn't count for much personally).

 

[ResilientBeast]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7 YEAR	10 YEAR
Sweeney Schriner	112.5	102.2	100.0	86.4	86.4	85.1	66.7	60.5	50.0	47.4	91.3	79.7
John Bucyk	128.9	89.4	82.4	82.1	81.5	80.2	76.1	73.2	73.1	72.3	88.7	83.9
Dale Hawerchuk	96.3	92.6	92.4	84.5	84.3	77.4	74.5	73.4	71.7	70.1	86.0	81.7
Paul Kariya	94.4	91.5	90.8	90.0	80.2	77.9	69.8	66.7	63.3	61.3	84.9	78.6
Syd Howe	100.0	100.0	86.0	81.8	76.4	75.0	67.9	64.8	63.2	61.4	83.9	77.7
Mike Modano	87.5	86.2	85.6	81.7	77.5	76.1	75.7	72.6	67.5	66.4	81.5	77.7
Hooley Smith	95.0	93.2	88.0	86.0	65.5	60.5	57.4	54.3	48.4	46.9	78.0	69.5
Patrice Bergeron	76.4	71.3	68.9	68.1	66.0	64.0	61.8	61.4	59.6	57.7	68.0	65.5
Jacques Laperriere	43.0	39.7	38.5	32.5	29.8	29.0	28.6	25.7	22.1	17.8	34.4	30.7

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Of course he wasn't - but that's why we're discussing him in the 130s and not the 40s.

Some objective metrics:
Career face off percentage of 58.3% (with numerous seasons of over 60%)
Career Corsi For percentage of 57.6% (with numerous seasons in the 60s - early career seems to drag him down a bit here)
Almost 900 points in 1100+ games - that's good production
40 short-handed points (18 goals, 22 assists)
Third for active players in +/- (I know but just putting it out there)

More advanced metrics like xG and otherwise are also very strong for him (expected +/- of +77.6 since 2015 seems pretty high to me).

Playoff production is similar to his RS production - 111 points in 149 games. The year they won the Cup he had 20 points in 23 games, and the other Cup runs he was 15p/22g and 17p/24g. Numerous other quality runs as well and a career +44 in 149 games, so playoffs has to be a strong plus for him (especially when compared to guys like Kariya). 4 OT goals in the playoffs is also strong as well.

In 2012-13 - in 42 games (lockout season) he was on the ice for 17 goals against. Total. That includes PP, PK, and EV, empty net goals and all of that (4 of his GA were while he was on the PK). Through his entire career he has been on the ice for a total of 917 goals in 1111 games. If you take out his first few seasons (before he was a defensive specialist) and start from 2009 to present? 655 in 872 games for a guy who plays on the PP, PK, even, when up one at the end of the game and when down one at the end of the game.

He's a well rounded player, but I think the wisdom of Bergeron being the best defensive player of the generation is one he has earned. And I am FAR from a Boston homer saying this.

Edit: And I should expand. He's not Nighbor and Clarke level (as reflected in the fact that they've been gone ages ago). He's also not Carbonneau or Gainey either. This guy can score. Yeah it helps being on a great line, but he's certainly part of the reason why that line is great.

"Good" production, his VsX scores are among the worst of any forward we've talked about.

Sure, I'm not saying he isn't but his offensive resurgence has to be taken the context of playing with 2 top 10 wingers in the NHL.

 

[bobholly39]

I actually have some time for Bergeron here. He has an argument for being a top 5 defensive forward of all-time, and even a good argument to be in the top 3 with Nighbor and Clarke. Nighbor and Clarke obviously bring more offense and they're rated to count for that.

Also Hedman still not being here is a travesty far worse than anything the Royals did to Meghan Merkle but alas.

Don't want to go off on too big a tangent with a non-eligible player but - Hedman to me is suffering from the same effect Patrick Kane did it in the initial top 100.

Malkin/Crosby/Ovi all peaked early, and so are highly appreciated among active players. They mostly got their due in original top 100 ranking.
Kane - peaked much later, and so opinions on him are still shifting. Give it a few more years, and people will appreciate him more.

Same thing happened so far here with defensemen. Karlsson/Doughty peaked early, and they came up early and got pretty strong consideration.
Hedman peaked much later - and so people need to reconcile still how good he is vs those. I think when we look back 5-10 years from now, there'll be more appreciation for Hedman.

 

[ted2019]

That's a disingenuous argument.

Just talking about how his scoring has gone up in the second half of his career blindly doesn't mean anything.

Just like talking about him playing on the top line means he's overrated according to your statement.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Just like talking about him playing on the top line means he's overrated according to your statement.

His offensive resurgence is overrated because he plays on the top line

In my eyes, Bergeron is a top 150 player. Without talking about his 11 top 5 Selke finishes in a row, he is getting putting up even more points now then he did when he was younger. Bergeron's 35.9% of his total points come from Special teams (PP 280 SH 40). His playoff numbers are just shy of his regular season numbers ( .80 PPG in 1110 games) (.744 PPG in 149 games in the playoffs). Top 5 Hart once ( 5 top 18 of his career). He's been better then Weber in his career and Hedman is closer then Weber to me.

You literally said the bolded like that means something without considering his linemates

You're trying to make me defend a statement I never made

 

[The Macho King]

So the top line is great, but I kind of think of it like this -

Is Marchand going to appear on this list? Probably not - maybe the tail end at best. Is Pastrnak? No but maybe he shows up somewhere in this range after a half dozen more seasons.

The *line* is good. Very good. And all the players on it are very good. But - for instance - Tampa has never been able to make the Stamkos-Point-Kucherov line work for more than a few games, despite them being - as individual talents - probably superior collectively than Bergeron's line. Same with however Toronto stacks their top line.

I don't want to knock the guy too much for playing on that line because the chemistry of that line requires all of them to work well together. Frank Boucher and Bill Cook both ended up top 50 and we were all fine with that. Richard, Beliveau, Boom Boom, and f*** half of the players to ever wear a Habs sweater are on this list and we seem to be fine with that. So why are we knocking Bergeron for playing with two good players but neither even HHOFers as far as resumes right now?