Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 8

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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
Procedure
  • You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
  • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
  • The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters
  • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
  • Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines
  • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
  • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
  • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
  • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules
  • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
  • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
  • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 5th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 7th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 8th.


Vote 8 Candidates
  • Alexei Kasatonov
  • Dale Hawerchuk
  • Doug Bentley
  • George Hainsworth
  • Hod Stuart
  • Hooley Smith
  • Jacques Laperriere
  • Johnny Bucyk
  • Marcel Pronovost
  • Mike Modano
  • Paul Kariya
  • Rod Langway
  • Sweeney Schriner
  • Syd Howe
  • Tiny Thompson
  • Tommy Phillips
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
A Sweeney Schriner/Pavel Bure comparison would've been interesting.
(This shouldn't be understood as a suggestion that it's already time for Schriner).
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
Doug Bentley is basically locked in as my #1. At this point, the only 3 guys I'd consider over him are all unavailable active players.

I have a pair of LWs - two-time Art Ross winner Sweeney Schriner and all-round utility player Syd Howe as the most interesting of the new candidates.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
VsX summary

Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7 YEAR 10 YEAR
Sweeney Schriner 112.5 102.2 100.0 86.4 86.4 85.1 66.7 60.5 50.0 47.4 91.3 79.7
Adam Oates 100.0 95.9 93.3 86.7 85.4 85.3 83.5 79.1 76.7 75.7 90.0 86.2
John Bucyk 128.9 89.4 82.4 82.1 81.5 80.2 76.1 73.2 73.1 72.3 88.7 83.9
Doug Bentley 101.4 98.1 95.0 87.3 81.1 76.8 66.7 63.6 48.5 48.1 86.6 76.7
Dale Hawerchuk 96.3 92.6 92.4 84.5 84.3 77.4 74.5 73.4 71.7 70.1 86.0 81.7
Paul Kariya 94.4 91.5 90.8 90.0 80.2 77.9 69.8 66.7 63.3 61.3 84.9 78.6
Syd Howe 100.0 100.0 86.0 81.8 76.4 75.0 67.9 64.8 63.2 61.4 83.9 77.7
Mike Modano 87.5 86.2 85.6 81.7 77.5 76.1 75.7 72.6 67.5 66.4 81.5 77.7
Hooley Smith 95.0 93.2 88.0 86.0 65.5 60.5 57.4 54.3 48.4 46.9 78.0 69.5
Guy Lapointe 72.4 62.0 58.2 57.1 51.9 48.9 47.4 45.0 38.5 21.8 56.9 50.3
Marcel Pronovost 45.9 44.3 38.6 30.0 29.5 28.2 26.1 25.6 23.9 23.8 34.6 31.6
Jacques Laperriere 43.0 39.7 38.5 32.5 29.8 29.0 28.6 25.7 22.1 17.8 34.4 30.7
Rod Langway 33.3 30.3 27.3 26.5 25.8 25.0 19.3 15.1 12.8 12.2 26.8 22.8
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
Hart trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Doug Bentley1113
Hooley Smith1113
Rod Langway123
Paul Kariya123
Syd Howe1113
Mike Modano22
Dale Hawerchuk11
Adam Oates11
Tiny Thompson11
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never received non-trivial votes - Bucyk, Hainsworth, Laperriere, Pronovost

Players who weren't eligible for the Hart - Kasatonov, Phillips, Stuart

Note that two of Bentley's three placements happened during WWII

Norris trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Rod Langway2 1 2 16
Jacques Laperriere11 22 6
Guy Lapointe 112 4
Marcel Pronovost 12 11 4
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 
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TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
VsX summary

Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7 YEAR 10 YEAR
Sweeney Schriner 112.5 102.2 100.0 86.4 86.4 85.1 66.7 60.5 50.0 47.4 91.3 79.7
Adam Oates 100.0 95.9 93.3 86.7 85.4 85.3 83.5 79.1 76.7 75.7 90.0 86.2
John Bucyk 128.9 89.4 82.4 82.1 81.5 80.2 76.1 73.2 73.1 72.3 88.7 83.9
Doug Bentley 101.4 98.1 95.0 87.3 81.1 76.8 66.7 63.6 48.5 48.1 86.6 76.7
Dale Hawerchuk 96.3 92.6 92.4 84.5 84.3 77.4 74.5 73.4 71.7 70.1 86.0 81.7
Paul Kariya 94.4 91.5 90.8 90.0 80.2 77.9 69.8 66.7 63.3 61.3 84.9 78.6
Syd Howe 100.0 100.0 86.0 81.8 76.4 75.0 67.9 64.8 63.2 61.4 83.9 77.7
Mike Modano 87.5 86.2 85.6 81.7 77.5 76.1 75.7 72.6 67.5 66.4 81.5 77.7
Hooley Smith 95.0 93.2 88.0 86.0 65.5 60.5 57.4 54.3 48.4 46.9 78.0 69.5
Guy Lapointe 72.4 62.0 58.2 57.1 51.9 48.9 47.4 45.0 38.5 21.8 56.9 50.3
Marcel Pronovost 45.9 44.3 38.6 30.0 29.5 28.2 26.1 25.6 23.9 23.8 34.6 31.6
Jacques Laperriere 43.0 39.7 38.5 32.5 29.8 29.0 28.6 25.7 22.1 17.8 34.4 30.7
Rod Langway 33.3 30.3 27.3 26.5 25.8 25.0 19.3 15.1 12.8 12.2 26.8 22.8
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

You did what I did last round - included guys who already made it (in this case, Oates and Lapointe)

Comments on the forwards:

Sweeney Schriner looks amazing here - I guess it shouldn't be a surprise since he won 2 Art Rosses, but his dropoff isn't that bad, either.

Johnny Bucyk's numbers are driven by a crazy outlier season, when he was 3rd on his own team in scoring yet finished with a score above 120%! Those 1971 Bruins really broke this system. This week, I'm going to try to fudge around Bucyk's numbers by comparing them to Esposito/Orr's numbers.

Doug Bentley's two-way game makes him look really good this week. Remember, this numbers ALREADY include fudges for WW2 seasons Bentley actually played, and the 1949 Chicago assist situation. But they DON'T take into account that Bentley himself missed 1.5 years (meaning 2 years of ability to put up end-of-season finishes) due to WW2.

Should we care that Hawerchuk was able to play a defensive role in international games? Either way, as an offense-only player for the most part in the NHL, I like him more than Kariya.

Syd Howe is a tough guy to evaluate, as he was used as a "utility player," who sometimes played D in case of injuries. He's worth a closer look. Tough to know what to do with him.

I like Mike Modano's two-way game and playoff record. He has a great chance of my top 5. I like him better than both Kariya and Hawerchuk.

Hooley Smith's playoff numbers are terrible for any era. He was a fantastic two-way player, but I don't see any way he doesn't finish below Modano.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Bio from Rob Scuderi

Alexei Kasatonov

Soviet League Stats and Accomplishments
315 points in 529 GP
8x 1st Team All-Star (1981-1988)

Soviet League Defensemen Scoring: 1 ('83), 1 ('85), 2 ('84), 2 ('87), 2 ('82), 3 ('89), 4 ('81), 4 ('86)

International Competition Stats and Accomplishments
Member of IIHF Hall of Fame

52 points in 77 World Championship GP
5x World Championship All-Star Team (1982-1983, 1985-1986, 1991)
1x World Championship Best Defender (1983)
5x WC Gold (1981, 1982, 1983, 1986, 1989)
1x WC Silver (1987)
2x WC Bronze (1985, 1991)

Placements - 1981: 40th in overall scoring, 8th in team scoring, 10th in defensemen scoring (4 points behind Tapio Levo); 1983: 6th in overall scoring, 4th in team scoring, 1st in defensemen scoring (1 point ahead of Fetisov); 1985: 5th in overall scoring, 4th in team scoring, 2nd in team scoring (2 points behind Fetisov); 1986: 24th in overall scoring, 6th in team scoring, 3rd in defensemen scoring (8 points behind Fetisov); 1987: 16th in overall scoring, 6th in team scoring, 3rd in defensemen scoring (2 points behind Fetisov); 1991: 32nd in overall scoring, 8th in team scoring, 2nd in defensemen scoring (1 point behind Lumme); 1982: only 3 points in 10 GP; 1989: 2 points in 10 GP

21 points in 21 Olympic GP
2x Olympic Gold (1984, 1988)
1x Olympic Silver (1980)

Placements - 1980: 31st in overall scoring, 11th in team scoring, 3rd in defensemen scoring (2 points behind Fetisov and Pervukhin); 1984: 20th in overall scoring, 4th in team scoring, 2nd in defensemen scoring (5 points behind Fetisov); 1988: 14th in overall scoring, 5th in team scoring, 4th in defensemen scoring (5 points behind Fetisov)

22 points in 27 Canada Cup GP
1x Canada Cup All-Star Team (1981)
1x Canada Cup winner (1981)
1x Canada Cup runner-up (1987)

Placements - 1981: 5th in overall scoring, 1st in team scoring, 1st in defensemen scoring (3 points ahead of Fetisov); 1984: 15th in overall scoring, 3rd in team scoring, 2nd in defensemen scoring (1 point behind Coffey); 1987: 17th in overall scoring, 9th in team scoring, 5th in defensemen scoring (3 points behind Bourque); 1991: only 1 point in 5 GP

NHL Stats
160 points in 383 GP

Toronto Star (Jim Proudfoot) - 2/7/1987 said:
Kasatonov, the 27-year-old right defenceman, came from Leningrad. He is a bear of a man, 6-foot-1 and 215 pounds, and yet he is a quick and clever attacker.

Vancouver Province (Jason Botchford) - 3/26/2006 said:

Weinrich credits former teammate Chris Chelios for teaching him a lot. But Weinrich said he learned the most about killing penalties while playing on the New Jersey Devils in the early 1990s. There it was Russian defencemen Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexei Kasatonov who showed him essential, finer points of the game.

"Those two Russian guys were just masters at killing penalties," Weinrich said. "To be a good penalty killer you need to anticipate really well and be able to think ahead, three, sometimes four moves. I won't compare myself to those guys but playing with them helped me a lot."

Toronto Star (Jim Proudfoot) - 8/8/1987 said:

Fetisov would be the perfect person to spearhead a Soviet invasion of the NHL. He is like Denis Potvin, cruel and efficient in his own zone and utterly dynamic on the attack - possibly Russia's first genuine big leaguer. Kasatonov is almost a duplicate.

Vancouver Sun - 2/19/1988 said:

Alan Eagleson said he doesn't think the quality will set off a flood of NHL teams chasing them. He said Alexei Kasatonov, 28, and Vyacheslav Fetisov, 29, might be available for the New Jersey Devils. The Devils drafted both in 1983. They are the Soviet version of Bobby Orr and Denis Potvin, but both have a lot of mileage on them.

Toronto Star (Jim Proudfoot) - 2/22/1988 said:

Soviet defenders Viacheslav Fetisov and Alexei Kasatonov are capable of transforming the New Jersey Devils into National Hockey League contenders. This was the opinion of several NHL executives who watched the redshirts demolish Czechoslovakia in an Olympic game at the Saddledome yesterday.

"They're both NHL-type defencemen," said Bob Pulford, general manager of the Chicago Blackhawks. "They're exceptionally good with the puck and they're tough. And they're great skaters. They'd have an immediate impact in the NHL."

Fetisov and Kasatonov, rearguard sidekicks for many seasons, lead the unbeaten Soviets in scoring here. After five victories, Fetisov had three goals and six assists; Kasatonov is two and six.

Montreal Gazette - 2/11/1987 said:

7 ALEXEI KASATONOV, defence - 27, teams with Fetisov as the top Soviet blueliners. He has played 33 games against NHL players, with two goals and 24 assists. He was also drafted by New Jersey in 1983.

Toronto Star - 4/29/1989 (Frank Orr) said:

Kasatonov, who isn't far behind Fetisov as a great defenceman, works with the solid Alexei Gusarov while Fetisov, perhaps the best player in this tournament as he was at the '88 Olympics, is paired with newcomer Valeri Shiriaiev, from Sokol Kiev.

"The Green Five is absolutely amazing when you look closely at what they have accomplished, especially how much hockey they've played at such a high level in the past 10 years," King said.

"There's talk about the NHL teams playing a lot of games but the Soviets, with all the tournaments they go in, their own league, NHL tours, world championships and Canada Cups play an enormous amount of high-pressure, tough hockey. And those five guys have carried the load."

All five players have been in at least six world championships, three Olympic Games and three Canada Cups, although Fetisov missed the '84 event because of an injury.

Sports Illustrated - 1/15/1990 said:

Five other Soviets Krutov, 29, Larionov, 29, Calgary right wing Sergei Makarov, 31, and New Jersey defensemen Viacheslav Fetisov, 31, and Alexei Kasatonov, 30 have long been considered among the top 15 talents in the world, but it may have been too much to expect them to become premier NHL players overnight.

Toronto Star (Jim Proudfoot) - 4/28/1990 said:

In short: Calgary's Sergei Makarov wasn't the only Soviet import who succeeded as a National Hockey League rookie. Alexei Kasatonov was outstanding after joining the New Jersey defence at midterm. He was invited to the world championships in Switzerland but discovered he'd been playing with a broken jaw .

From the Hockey News after the 1989-90 season:

Kasatonov, who joined the New Jersey Devils Jan. 2, finished the regular season as their best defenseman. He adjusted faster than Fetisov and Starikov and exhibited a higher skill level.

New York Times - 4/11/1991 said:

"It doesn't matter if it's Lemieux or Coffey," Kasatonov said after today's practice. "You have to be very strong and aggressive against every player in the playoffs."

What the world famous Hockey scouting report had to say:

Hockey Scouting Report 1990-1991 said:
The Finesse Game

Unlike fellow Soviet Viacheslav Fetisov, Kasatonov's skills are far more subtle and far less dramatic. All he does is get excellent reads of the ice at both ends, contain and control both blue lines, force turnover and speed the transition game. He just doesn't do it with the flair Fetisov does - when Fetisov does it.

Kasatonov is an excellent skater across all aspects of the skill, posses speed, agility, quickness and balance. He uses that skating to its best degree in all aspects of his game and his excellent hockey sense and read and react abilities play off his skating very well.

He makes solid and sure passes from his end...Kasatonov finds the open man excellently, but he is not such an offensive dynamo that he will create open ice for his teammates. Kasatonov handles the puck very well and can rush with it, but he knows not to hang onto it for long spans of time - one very important reason he had the immediate NHL success he did.

The Physical Game
As with his finesse game, Kasatonov's physical game is a subtle one but highly defined nonetheless. His excellent skating ability puts him in good position for takeouts, and his strength and balance allow him to pin his man to the boards. He excellently uses his body to gain position, plays a willing physical game in all areas and cannot be intimidated.

The Intangibles
A very strong NHL debut for Kasatonov...Like fellow Soviet Fetisov, Kasatonov is the rare kind of player who can make his teammates better just by his presence - which is to be expected from a world class player. He has fine desire and a strong attitude and can only improve with greater NHL experience - though it's hard to imagine his being any more effective.

Hockey Scouting Report 1991-1992 said:

The Finesse Game
Kasatonov is a blue-collar Soviet, if there could be such a thing. Where most Soviet players have graceful, seamless games, Kasatonov is a worker. He is a powerful skater, very wide-based, and his "railroad" stance makes him a very difficult player to knock off his skates.

He is an excellent stick-checker and is able to turn the flow back quickly the other way and jump into the play offensively. He is an excellent penalty-killer, aggressive without losing his position. His enthusiasm for the game shows, but his emotions seldom affect him in a negative fashion. Coaches never have to worry about his intensity level, because he brings a consistent desire to excel to the rink every game.

The Physical Game
One of the highlights of Kasatonov's season was probably the fight he won with Ron Francis. Not that Francis is a heavyweight, but Kasatonov finally struck a blow for all of the Soviets who are constantly "tested" by NHL bullies...and has proven he cannot be intimidated. In fact, Kasatonov has shown a taste for the rough stuff.

He is a very physical player, but will not check hard. He will take an opponent out, but let him off the hook. He has to learn to crunch, because he has size and especially the skating strength to do so.

The Intangibles
Now the secret is out, Kasatonov was the team's best defenseman over the long haul last season, showing real improvement late in the year.

Hockey Scouting Report 1992-1993 said:

The Finesse Game
Ask most scouts who is the most underrated defenseman on the Devils and they will answer Kasatonov. Opposing scouts love his poise, work ethic and powerful skating ability. Because he doesn't possess great breakaway speed, Kasatonov has never garnered as much notice as some of the other players to come from Russia, but he has all the tools and a toolbox to put them in.

Kasatonov doesn't shoot bullets from the blue line (his slap shot is one of the weaker parts of his game), but he sees the ice well and works his passes. He also likes to sneak into the right circle and use his accurate wrist shot.

One of the league's better penalty-killing defensemen, an underrated Kasatonov skill is lifting the puck from deep in his defensive zone to center ice on his backhand. Few players can do it as quickly and effectively (although it is apparent he has taught some of his Devils teammates the trick). He uses this clearing technique during the penalty kills and it is extremely frustrating to opponents.

The Physical Game
It didn't take long for Kasatonov to adapt to the more physical style of North American play. He won't be intimidated and will frequently initiate some belligerent contact. Kasatonov is not a crushing checker and the Devils would like him to get a little meaner since he has the lower body strength and agility to become a punishing hitter.

The Intangibles
Kasatonov has stepped up his development last season to become the team's second-best all-around defenseman (after Stevens). The only thing lacking is consistency. One pig plus is that despite his offensive drought, Kasatonov never hurt the team defensively.

Hockey Scouting Report 1993-1994 said:

The Finesse Game
He will not lead a rush, but he's savvy enough to jump into the play and when he is hit with a pass as the trailer, will use a strong wrist shot.

Kasatonov is an excellent penalty-killer. He is expert at breaking up passes, plays well positionally and has a great knack for clearing the zone by lifting the puck out on his backhand. It's a rare skill.

The Physical Game
He was one of the first Russian players who showed a real liking for the physical part of the game, but last season he seemed more reluctant to bang, as if the hits hurt more.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
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Bentley, Phillips and Stuart are looking pretty good to me right now

Still not interested in Hainsworth or Thompson
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
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Hart trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Doug Bentley1113
Hooley Smith1113
Rod Langway123
Paul Kariya123
Syd Howe1113
Mike Modano22
Dale Hawerchuk11
Adam Oates11
Tiny Thompson11
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never received non-trivial votes - Bucyk, Hainsworth, Laperriere, Pronovost

Players who weren't eligible for the Hart - Kasatonov, Phillips, Stuart

Note that two of Bentley's three placements happened during WWII

Norris trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Rod Langway21216
Jacques Laperriere11226
Guy Lapointe1124
Marcel Pronovost12114
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

When were Hooley's 3 Hart votes? Hockey reference only has him for a 2nd and a 4th.

Smith is the first candidate I didn't have on my original list.
 

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
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Kasatonov certainly looks better than Langway but that's about the best thing I can say about him right now.

Great player but today a little early for him. Non-NHL Euros Petrov, Larionov, Nedomanský and Suchý should all go sooner to the list.

This forum seemingly does like the Soviet d-men. Fetisov ahead of Makarov. Vasiliev during Top-100 project appearing before Maltsev & Martinec. Now Kasatonov appearing before Suchý, Petrov, Larionov...
________________

Pronovost and Stuart are the 2 d-men to be added. Laperierre might be interesting too.
 
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The Macho King

Back* to Back** World Champion
Jun 22, 2011
48,776
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Schriner should probably coast in here.

O6 and 70s eras are getting over-exposed here, but that's pretty typical of the HoH forums as a whole so I'm not totally surprised.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,489
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Connecticut
Kasatonov certainly looks better than Langway but that's about the best thing I can say about him right now.

Great player but today a little early for him. Non-NHL Euros Petrov, Larionov, Nedomanský and Suchý should all go sooner to the list.

This forum seemingly does like the Soviet d-men. Fetisov ahead of Makarov. Vasiliev during Top-100 project appearing before Maltsev & Martinec. Now Kasatonov appearing before Suchý, Petrov, Larionov...
________________

Pronovost and Stuart are the 2 d-men to be added. Laperierre might be interesting too.

Can't agree with Kasatonov over Langway. Langway impacted games far more. Far more than anyone else in this group too.

I may have all 5 defensemen in my top 10.
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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Kasatonov certainly looks better than Langway but that's about the best thing I can say about him right now.

Great player but today a little early for him. Non-NHL Euros Petrov, Larionov, Nedomanský and Suchý should all go sooner to the list.

This forum seemingly does like the Soviet d-men. Fetisov ahead of Makarov. Vasiliev during Top-100 project appearing before Maltsev & Martinec. Now Kasatonov appearing before Suchý, Petrov, Larionov...
________________

Pronovost and Stuart are the 2 d-men to be added. Laperierre might be interesting too.

I like Kasatonov (though I don't think he should go on yet), but I don't see how he looks better than Langway here. I'm extremely critical of Langway's two Norrises, but I've also said that I agree with his strong Hart voting record, and he feels really good here. I'm not sure that I see how Kasatonov has that level of individual value to a team. We've got two guys on this list that would have a Hart if not for that Gretzky guy, and Langway is one of them. Both of those guys legitimately had that kind of value, and that's going to be pretty rare at this stage.
 
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tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
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Smith is an interesting candidate who probably deserves a bit of a deep-dive to get past his lack of eye-popping numbers/awards. He was something of a compiler who typically finished 2nd or 3rd on his team in scoring, but also missed out on better placements due to relatively minor injuries (e.g. 1926, 1932). His three award-relevant seasons were spaced out by gaps of 6 and 4 years, which suggests a relatively low peak but strong consistency. When he retired, he was 4th all time in NHL points, largely due to a large advantage in GP. Generally speaking, he was very well rounded (multi-positional, good defensively) and a bit eccentric in terms of his willingness to fight players and occasionally fans.

When looking at his awards, add the following 1927-30 coaches' and GMs' polls (thanks @TheDevilMadeMe for reminding me of this yesterday) as these were taken prior to the beginning of official NHL All Star teams:

1927: 3rd RW* (Bill Cook, Howie Morenz)
1928: 2nd RW** (Bill Cook)
1929: No votes
1930: 4th RW (Dit Clapper, Bill Cook, Frank Finnegan)

* Note: Smith primarily played C this season, with Nighbor in and out of the lineup. As far as I can tell, any time Smith spent at RW would have been as a bench sub.
** yes, 2nd, even though Harry Oliver was given the nod based on the absurdity that a 0-3 ballot should beat a 2-1 ballot.

I think of Smith as a sort of hybrid between Oates and Bucyk. Capable of being a second-tier star, but ideally he would be a very elite complementary player to a true star. That led to a long and consistent career at the fringes of award recognition.
 

ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
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Smith is an interesting candidate who probably deserves a bit of a deep-dive to get past his lack of eye-popping numbers/awards. He was something of a compiler who typically finished 2nd or 3rd on his team in scoring, but also missed out on better placements due to relatively minor injuries (e.g. 1926, 1932). His three award-relevant seasons were spaced out by gaps of 6 and 4 years, which suggests a relatively low peak but strong consistency. When he retired, he was 4th all time in NHL points, largely due to a large advantage in GP. Generally speaking, he was very well rounded (multi-positional, good defensively) and a bit eccentric in terms of his willingness to fight players and occasionally fans.

When looking at his awards, add the following 1927-30 coaches' and GMs' polls (thanks @TheDevilMadeMe for reminding me of this yesterday) as these were taken prior to the beginning of official NHL All Star teams:

1927: 3rd RW* (Bill Cook, Howie Morenz)
1928: 2nd RW** (Bill Cook)
1929: No votes
1930: 4th RW (Dit Clapper, Bill Cook, Frank Finnegan)

* Note: Smith primarily played C this season, with Nighbor in and out of the lineup. As far as I can tell, any time Smith spent at RW would have been as a bench sub.
** yes, 2nd, even though Harry Oliver was given the nod based on the absurdity that a 0-3 ballot should beat a 2-1 ballot.

I think of Smith as a sort of hybrid between Oates and Bucyk. Capable of being a second-tier star, but ideally he would be a very elite complementary player to a true star. That led to a long and consistent career at the fringes of award recognition.

So some information on Hooley positionally from my bio on Nels Stewart from last years ATD


1927-28 Season

DateNels' PositionRegular LinematesNotes
16-Nov-27CSiebert (LW)Hooley isn’t listed
18-Nov-27CSiebert (LW)Hooley isn’t listed
21-Nov-27CSiebert (LW)Hooley isn’t listed
23-Nov-27LWSmith (c)Hooley appears
28-Nov-27C + W (?)Stewart (?)Hooley isn’t listed
30-Nov-27CSiebert (LW)Hooley isn’t listed
02-Dec-27Hooley noted as being out for a while
05-Dec-27Didn't play
12-Dec-27Didn't play
16-Dec-27CSmith (W) + Siebert (W)
19-Dec-27CSiebert (LW)Hooley as a sub
26-Dec-27CSmith (W) + Siebert (W)
29-Dec-27LWOatman (LW) + Smith (C)
30-Dec-27COatman (LW?) + Smith (RW)
02-Jan-28COatman (LW?) + Smith (RW)
06-Jan-28SubSmith (C)
16-Jan-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
18-Jan-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
23-Jan-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
27-Jan-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
01-Feb-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
06-Feb-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
08-Feb-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
20-Feb-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
22-Feb-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
05-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
09-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
12-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
14-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
19-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
26-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
28-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)NHL Playoffs
30-Mar-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)NHL Playoffs
02-Apr-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)NHL Playoffs
03-Apr-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)NHL Playoffs
06-Apr-28No lineupCup Finals
09-Apr-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)Cup Finals + Lester in net
11-Apr-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)Cup Finals
16-Apr-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1928-29 Season

16-Nov-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
19-Nov-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
23-Nov-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
26-Nov-28LWWard (W)Hooley absent
28-Nov-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
30-Nov-28RWSmith (C) + Ward (LW)RW weird
03-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
07-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
12-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
14-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
17-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
19-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (RW)
21-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
26-Dec-28LWSmith (C) + Ward (RW)
04-Jan-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
09-Jan-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
14-Jan-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
18-Jan-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (W)
21-Jan-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (RW)
25-Jan-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
28-Jan-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
01-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
06-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
11-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
13-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
15-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
18-Feb-29CSiebert (LW) + Ward (RW)Hooley on D
20-Feb-29CSmith (C) + Ward (W)
25-Feb-29LWWard (W)Hooley absent
27-Feb-29LWWard (W)Hooley absent
01-Mar-29LWWard (W)
11-Mar-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (RW)
15-Mar-29LWSmith (C) + Ward (RW)
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
1929-30 Season

15-Nov-29CS LineThe S-Line!!!
18-Nov-29CS Line
20-Nov-29SubHooley on D
25-Nov-29CS Line
29-Nov-29SubS-Line are Subs
02-Dec-29CS Line
04-Dec-29SubS-Line are Subs
06-Dec-29CS LineS-Line are Subs
13-Dec-29Sub
18-Dec-29CS Line
23-Dec-29CS Line
27-Dec-29CS Line
30-Dec-29CSiebertHooley Absent
02-Jan-30CSiebertHooley Absent
06-Jan-30CS Line
10-Jan-30CS Line
15-Jan-30CS Line
17-Jan-30CS Line
20-Jan-30SubS-Line are Subs
24-Jan-30CS Line
27-Jan-30CS Line
31-Jan-30CS Line
03-Feb-30SubS-Line are Subs
07-Feb-30CSmithSiebert on D
10-Feb-30CS-Line
12-Feb-30CS-Line
14-Feb-30CS-Line
17-Feb-30SubS-Line are Subs
19-Feb-30CS-Line
21-Feb-30SubS-Line are Subs
26-Feb-30CS-Line
05-Mar-30CS-Line
07-Mar-30CS-Line
10-Mar-30CSmith
17-Mar-30CSmith
21-Mar-30CS-LinePlayoffs
26-Mar-30CNorthcott + SmithPlayoffs
28-Mar-30CNorthcott + SmithPlayoffs
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Edit: Hooley was almost certainly a C from 1927-29 prior to the creation of the S-Line. He also seems to have spent a sizable chunk of time on D
 

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
629
576
Prague
I like Kasatonov (though I don't think he should go on yet), but I don't see how he looks better than Langway here. I'm extremely critical of Langway's two Norrises, but I've also said that I agree with his strong Hart voting record, and he feels really good here. I'm not sure that I see how Kasatonov has that level of individual value to a team. We've got two guys on this list that would have a Hart if not for that Gretzky guy, and Langway is one of them. Both of those guys legitimately had that kind of value, and that's going to be pretty rare at this stage.

He looks better than Langway if we step back for a moment and realize how many 1980s NHL are already on our list and how many 1980s European / Soviet d-men are on the list.

There is Fetisov on the European side and that's it - just one.

There is Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Stevens, Robinson, Chelios and Salming too to lesser extent.

Aren't 1980s Euros, in this case mainly 1980s Soviets underrepresented? Inability of putting achievements of 1980s and especially 1970s NHLers into context is the reason why every HOH list always ends up with highest number of 1970s and 1980s players. This won't change until people stop taking awards and stats from this time-frame at face value - just how everybody doesn't take pre-1926 NHL or NHA awards or stats at face value.

Back to Langway, I'm sure Langway was great player at his 3-year peak but that peak coincides with peak Fetisov. Does anybody believe Langway was better d-man than Fetisov even during Langway's peak? Hart voting argument holds no water for me...

As for the impact that Langway had...
A) It lasted shortly. B) Impact sure didn't materialize in the playoffs with Washington's notorious shortcomings and upsets.

Langway has even worse longevity than Kasatonov and that's saying something considering one was playing under Tikhonov and the other wasn't.
 
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ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Kasatonov certainly looks better than Langway but that's about the best thing I can say about him right now.

Great player but today a little early for him. Non-NHL Euros Petrov, Larionov, Nedomanský and Suchý should all go sooner to the list.

This forum seemingly does like the Soviet d-men. Fetisov ahead of Makarov. Vasiliev during Top-100 project appearing before Maltsev & Martinec. Now Kasatonov appearing before Suchý, Petrov, Larionov...
________________

Pronovost and Stuart are the 2 d-men to be added. Laperierre might be interesting too.

I think you meant to say Langway should be added. Guy only won 2 Norris Trophies as the last pure defenseman to win one.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
He looks better than Langway if we step back for a moment and realize how many 1980s NHL are already on our list and how many 1980s European / Soviet d-men are on the list.

There is Fetisov on the European side and that's it - just one.

There is Bourque, Potvin, Coffey, Stevens, Robinson, Chelios and Salming too to lesser extent.

Aren't 1980s Euros, in this case mainly 1980s Soviets underrepresented? Inability of putting achievements of 1980s and especially 1970s NHLers into context is the reason why every HOH list always ends up with highest number of 1970s and 1980s players. This won't change until people stop taking awards and stats from this time-frame at face value - just how everybody doesn't take pre-1926 NHL or NHA awards or stats at face value.

Back to Langway, I'm sure Langway was great player at his 3-year peak but that peak coincides with peak Fetisov. Does anybody believe Langway was better d-man than Fetisov even during Langway's peak? Hart voting argument holds no water for me...

As for the impact that Langway had...
A) It lasted shortly. B) Impact sure didn't materialize in the playoffs with Washington's notorious shortcomings and upsets.

Langway has even worse longevity than Kasatonov and that's saying something considering one was playing under Tikhonov and the other wasn't.

I thought this was about the best players getting in and not a quota on how many from an era should or should not get in? Langway should be in this round.
 
Last edited:

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
I like Kasatonov (though I don't think he should go on yet), but I don't see how he looks better than Langway here. I'm extremely critical of Langway's two Norrises, but I've also said that I agree with his strong Hart voting record, and he feels really good here. I'm not sure that I see how Kasatonov has that level of individual value to a team. We've got two guys on this list that would have a Hart if not for that Gretzky guy, and Langway is one of them. Both of those guys legitimately had that kind of value, and that's going to be pretty rare at this stage.

I'm not sure if it matters to the actual ranking, but I wouldn't be sure of the bolded. Gretzky was just so far ahead of all the other forwards, he dwarfed them. I would actually say that it's more likely than not that a critical mass of writers would have just switched their 1st place votes to a different high scoring forward if Gretzky hadn't been around.
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,257
138,788
Bojangles Parking Lot
Langway has even worse longevity than Kasatonov and that's saying something considering one was playing under Tikhonov and the other wasn't.

At this point in the project, Langway's peak is high enough that I'm starting to take him more seriously. I look at guys like Smith, Thompson, Bucyk and I don't necessarily see a higher peak than Langway's.

The issue that still persists is Langway's lack of longevity. Even for a 70s/80s player, becoming irrelevant after age 31 is a strikingly early decline. The back half of his career actually looks a lot like Kariya's, except there's no catastrophic injury to explain it (Langway did play through injuries but nothing like a broken brain), Kariya was the more relevant player into his mid-30s, and Kariya's elite window began solidly 3 years earlier.

TBH Langway probably catches a bad break here because Kasatonov showed up just in time to make a point about just how deep we're reaching for 70s/80s Canadians compared to every other demographic.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
6,981
Brooklyn
@Hockey Outsider , do you have the ability to quickly post Johnny Bucyk's VsX numbers with seasons attached? If you can, it'll save me a little time on what I want to do with him this round.

Obviously his crazy outlier is 1971, when the super-Bruins finished 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8 in NHL scoring (1970-71 NHL Skater Statistics | Hockey-Reference.com), but I'd like to compare his numbers before and after Bobby Orr came to town. I'm thinking of using his % of Bobby Orr's point totals instead of the standard VsX number for years when Orr outscored Bucyk.
 
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