Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 6

[buffalowing88]

Here is a look at how the new available players performed in Best-on-Best tournaments. Since I did not have the time to do this breakdown last week I included Scott Niedermayer here instead.

Scott Niedermayer
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 27 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 15 gp, 4 g, 1 a, 5 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
World Cup 1996: 5 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
World Cup 2004: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts
Olympics 2010: 4 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts

Accolades: -

Vladimir Krutov
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 22 gp, 14 g, 16 a, 30 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 7 gp, 4 g, 7 a, 11 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 1 g, 1 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 3 g, 5 a, 8 pts

Accolades: Canada Cup All-Star team 1987

Paul Kariya
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 6 gp, 3 g, 1 a, 4 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 3 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 2 g, 1 a, 3 pts

Accolades: -

Connor McDavid
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 3 gp, 0 g, 3 a, 3 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: -

Accolades: -

The Canada Cup performances of Vladimir Krutov has already been talked about in this thread and it is clear that Krutov has a very impressive Best-on-Best resume. Especially considering how outstanding his knockout stage numbers are where he scored at 1.57 points per game compared to 1.27 points per game in the group stage.

For me the lasting memory of Scott Niedermayer's performances in Best-on-Best tournaments is him being the captain of Team Canada in the 2010 Olympics. Niedermayer also had a strong tournament in the 2002 Olympics where he was one of the leaders in plus-minus. In the 1996 World Cup Niedermayer had his most productive tournament offensively but it seems like he struggled somewhat on the defensive side of the game in that tournament as he finished last among all players in plus-minus (tied with Gretzky and Demitra).

It really is a shame that Paul Kariya missed both the 1996 World Cup and the 1998 Olympics due to injuries considering that his style of play was very well suited for the international stage and he had some strong international performances early on in his career. Kariya also called his withdrawal from the 1996 World Cup "biggest disappointment of my hockey career. I grew up watching the Canada Cup, and it's something I really wanted to do". When Kariya finally got the chance to play at a Best-on-Best tournament in the 2002 Olympics he performed well with 4 points in 6 games and one of the strongest plus-minus ratings in the tournament. Kariya to Miss World Cup (Published 1996)

Connor McDavid has so far only had the chance to play in one Best-on-Best tournament (2016 World Cup) where both he and the U-23 North American team impressed with their speed in the group stage but in the end they missed out on qualifying for the knockout stage with the smallest of margins.

Adam Oates never got to play in a Best-on-Best tournament. His best chance to do so was definitely the 1991 Canada Cup but in that tournament Mike Keenan left some of the top offensive players in the world like Oates and Yzerman off the team.

So where do these players fit in on the list of the most impressive Best-on-Best resumes among the available players? I think that Krutov probably takes the top spot from Perreault with his combination of outstanding knockout stage scoring and penalty killing performances. However if not for Perreault's mid-tournament injury in the 1981 Canada Cup I think that this comparison could have been very interesting depending on how Perreault would have performed in the knockout stage of that tournament. I would probably rank Niedermayer's Best-on-Best resume slightly ahead of the one of Guy Lapointe. I find the Best-on-Best resumes of Kariya and McDavid very difficult to rank due to the very small sample size so I left them off my ranking list.

Krutov
Perreault
Bure
Langway
Niedermayer
Lapointe
Datsyuk

Here are the numbers of the other available players again.

Awesome stuff. I think I still lean Perreault, and I do think that injury in 81 crushed his chances from being even more highly regarded. But Krutov was available and sometimes availability is the best kind of ability, etc.

I'm jumping back in and currently thinking:

Perreault
Krutov
Bure
Niedermayer
Lapointe
Langway
Datsyuk

But again, I appreciate the analysis. It's extremely insightful.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Current thoughts:

I’m not including McDavid in this post, because he’s just a wild card and I still have no idea what to do with him. So consider this a preliminary ranking of the non-McDavids:

1. Alex Delvecchio - It’s past time. Great defensively (1 of 4 players to receive a vote for best defensive forward in the league in the 1958 coach’s poll we have). Insanely good longevity as a top player: Eleven top 10 finishes in scoring is more than any other center in history other than Gretzky (16) and Beliveau (12). 13 NHL All-Star games is behind only Howe (23), Bourque (19), Gretzky (18), Mahovlich (15), Coffey (15), and Messier (15) among players at ALL positions. Great in the playoffs - Delvecchio is a rare player whose career scoring rate rose from regular season to playoffs, and he retired as the 6th leading playoffs scorer in NHL history behind Gordie Howe and 4 Habs.

2. Gilbert Perreault - good peak, good longevity, tremendous star power, very visually appealing, absolutely fantastic player in Best-on-Best international play. Really good string of All-Star consideration: 1972: 4th (behind Esposito, Ratelle, Clarke), 1973: 3rd (Esposito, Clarke), 1974: injuries, 1975: 3rd (Clarke, Esposito), 1976: 2nd (Clarke), 1977: 2nd (Dionne). He was also 3rd behind Dionne and rookie Gretzky in 1980. Career similar to what I picture Bure having if Bure stayed healthy (and was a center).

3. Doug Bentley - If his playoff record was as good as his brother's he'd be on our list already. Only a handful of star forwards had left for WW2 when he led the league in points in 1943. He followed it up with another strong year in 1944 against really war weakened competition. But it should be noted that Doug Bentley himself missed 1.5 years due to the war (1945 and half of 1946), so effectively missing 2 seasons of being able to finish near the top of the season end rankings. I like his versatility - before he left for the war, he was a LW who led the league in goals in 1943 and 1944. After he came back, he moved to C and led the league in assists in 1948 and 1949. And he was praised for his backchecking.

4. Scott Niedermayer - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Excellent in the playoffs.

5. Vladimir Krutov - Really good and consistent prime, good all-round player. Just as good as Makarov in the Canada Cups. If he hadn't fallen off such a cliff in his late 20s, he'd probably be my #1.

6. Pavel Datsyuk - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Hit or miss in the playoffs.

7. Adam Oates - not as much star power as some others, but man, could he put up points. Regularly made his linemates better.

8. Guy Lapointe - Strong prime where he consistently received recognition for the Norris trophy Excellent on both the PP and PK. From 1973-1979, he finished 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th in Norris voting in consecutive years.

9/10/11. Bure/Langway/Phillips. Langway was healthier in his prime, but Bure has the 1994 playoffs. Phillips goes somewhere around here I think.

Definitely NRs: Kariya, Stuart: In a way, Kariya is like a more balanced Bure, but even I give Bure some bonus points for a few clutch performances and goal scoring titles. Hod Stuart had a short prime like Tommy Phillips, but he didn’t contribute to winning teams like Phillips did. Kenora shocked the world when they won the Cup, with Phillips as their best player by a wide margin. I’m not entirely sure where I’m putting Phillips, but I’m pretty comfortable with him above Stuart.

 

[quoipourquoi]

Pavel Datsyuk - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Hit or miss in the playoffs.

Does anyone question that Selke record just a little bit?

We’re talking about a player who received top-4 forward distribution for his team on the penalty kill just once in his career (the 2013 lockout season). Pavel Bure and Paul Kariya spent more time on the Penalty Kill in just 1998-2003 than Pavel Datsyuk did from 2008 (his first high Selke finish) through the end of his NHL career in 2016.

Datsyuk didn’t have the standout moments as a shadow the way some of his teammates did. He more or less just had takeaways, a highly-subjective new stat in 2006 that essentially launched a narrative. Other takeaway leaders from the era include Rob Blake (2006), Evgeni Malkin (2009), Joe Thornton (2011) - and even Connor McDavid (2018).

If it wasn’t such a brand new stat at the time of his peak specifically, would Datsyuk have ever gotten such buzz for his defensive play when his team essentially did not want prioritize utilizing him when down a player? Five years earlier, and it might have been the Mike Modano or Martin St. Louis stat, and maybe we’d have already had someone like a Bure or a Kariya come along like Malkin and McDavid did later on to drive home the point that it’s nothing worth distributing a Selke over.

He’s worth more than his cumulative NHL points, sure (a total that Kariya reached in ~70 fewer games), but how much more is what I question, particularly with a player for whom it took six playoff runs on a (the?) Stanley Cup favorite to produce something that didn’t mostly suck. Most players don’t get that many bites at the apple in their career, and Datsyuk is one of the few to produce a relatively uneaten apple after that many bites in his prime years without getting excoriated for it.

 

[K Fleur]

I find Datsyuk to be over appreciated but not overrated if that makes any sense.

I also have a problem with him having 4 Selkes and Zetterberg having zero. That should feel wrong for anybody who watched them in their primes, especially in their finals runs.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Career takeaways/giveaways

Zetterberg 454/482

Datsyuk 754/480

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Awesome stuff. I think I still lean Perreault, and I do think that injury in 81 crushed his chances from being even more highly regarded. But Krutov was available and sometimes availability is the best kind of ability, etc.

I'm jumping back in and currently thinking:

Perreault
Krutov
Bure
Niedermayer
Lapointe
Langway
Datsyuk

But again, I appreciate the analysis. It's extremely insightful.

Like all of these except Perreault

 

[ted2019]

Current thoughts:

I’m not including McDavid in this post, because he’s just a wild card and I still have no idea what to do with him. So consider this a preliminary ranking of the non-McDavids:

1. Alex Delvecchio - It’s past time. Great defensively (1 of 4 players to receive a vote for best defensive forward in the league in the 1958 coach’s poll we have). Insanely good longevity as a top player: Eleven top 10 finishes in scoring is more than any other center in history other than Gretzky (16) and Beliveau (12). 13 NHL All-Star games is behind only Howe (23), Bourque (19), Gretzky (18), Mahovlich (15), Coffey (15), and Messier (15) among players at ALL positions. Great in the playoffs - Delvecchio is a rare player whose career scoring rate rose from regular season to playoffs, and he retired as the 6th leading playoffs scorer in NHL history behind Gordie Howe and 4 Habs.

2. Gilbert Perreault - good peak, good longevity, tremendous star power, very visually appealing, absolutely fantastic player in Best-on-Best international play. Really good string of All-Star consideration: 1972: 4th (behind Esposito, Ratelle, Clarke), 1973: 3rd (Esposito, Clarke), 1974: injuries, 1975: 3rd (Clarke, Esposito), 1976: 2nd (Clarke), 1977: 2nd (Dionne). He was also 3rd behind Dionne and rookie Gretzky in 1980. Career similar to what I picture Bure having if Bure stayed healthy (and was a center).

3. Doug Bentley - If his playoff record was as good as his brother's he'd be on our list already. Only a handful of star forwards had left for WW2 when he led the league in points in 1943. He followed it up with another strong year in 1944 against really war weakened competition. But it should be noted that Doug Bentley himself missed 1.5 years due to the war (1945 and half of 1946), so effectively missing 2 seasons of being able to finish near the top of the season end rankings. I like his versatility - before he left for the war, he was a LW who led the league in goals in 1943 and 1944. After he came back, he moved to C and led the league in assists in 1948 and 1949. And he was praised for his backchecking.

4. Scott Niedermayer - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Excellent in the playoffs.

5. Vladimir Krutov - Really good and consistent prime, good all-round player. Just as good as Makarov in the Canada Cups. If he hadn't fallen off such a cliff in his late 20s, he'd probably be my #1.

6. Pavel Datsyuk - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Hit or miss in the playoffs.

7. Adam Oates - not as much star power as some others, but man, could he put up points. Regularly made his linemates better.

8. Guy Lapointe - Strong prime where he consistently received recognition for the Norris trophy Excellent on both the PP and PK. From 1973-1979, he finished 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th in Norris voting in consecutive years.

9/10/11. Bure/Langway/Phillips. Langway was healthier in his prime, but Bure has the 1994 playoffs. Phillips goes somewhere around here I think.

Definitely NRs: Kariya, Stuart: In a way, Kariya is like a more balanced Bure, but even I give Bure some bonus points for a few clutch performances and goal scoring titles. Hod Stuart had a short prime like Tommy Phillips, but he didn’t contribute to winning teams like Phillips did. Kenora shocked the world when they won the Cup, with Phillips as their best player by a wide margin. I’m not entirely sure where I’m putting Phillips, but I’m pretty comfortable with him above Stuart.

I see that we differ a lot.

 

[ted2019]

Current thoughts:

I’m not including McDavid in this post, because he’s just a wild card and I still have no idea what to do with him. So consider this a preliminary ranking of the non-McDavids:

1. Alex Delvecchio - It’s past time. Great defensively (1 of 4 players to receive a vote for best defensive forward in the league in the 1958 coach’s poll we have). Insanely good longevity as a top player: Eleven top 10 finishes in scoring is more than any other center in history other than Gretzky (16) and Beliveau (12). 13 NHL All-Star games is behind only Howe (23), Bourque (19), Gretzky (18), Mahovlich (15), Coffey (15), and Messier (15) among players at ALL positions. Great in the playoffs - Delvecchio is a rare player whose career scoring rate rose from regular season to playoffs, and he retired as the 6th leading playoffs scorer in NHL history behind Gordie Howe and 4 Habs.

2. Gilbert Perreault - good peak, good longevity, tremendous star power, very visually appealing, absolutely fantastic player in Best-on-Best international play. Really good string of All-Star consideration: 1972: 4th (behind Esposito, Ratelle, Clarke), 1973: 3rd (Esposito, Clarke), 1974: injuries, 1975: 3rd (Clarke, Esposito), 1976: 2nd (Clarke), 1977: 2nd (Dionne). He was also 3rd behind Dionne and rookie Gretzky in 1980. Career similar to what I picture Bure having if Bure stayed healthy (and was a center).

3. Doug Bentley - If his playoff record was as good as his brother's he'd be on our list already. Only a handful of star forwards had left for WW2 when he led the league in points in 1943. He followed it up with another strong year in 1944 against really war weakened competition. But it should be noted that Doug Bentley himself missed 1.5 years due to the war (1945 and half of 1946), so effectively missing 2 seasons of being able to finish near the top of the season end rankings. I like his versatility - before he left for the war, he was a LW who led the league in goals in 1943 and 1944. After he came back, he moved to C and led the league in assists in 1948 and 1949. And he was praised for his backchecking.

4. Scott Niedermayer - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Excellent in the playoffs.

5. Vladimir Krutov - Really good and consistent prime, good all-round player. Just as good as Makarov in the Canada Cups. If he hadn't fallen off such a cliff in his late 20s, he'd probably be my #1.

6. Pavel Datsyuk - short prime, yes, but he was still a very useful player outside of it. Hit or miss in the playoffs.

7. Adam Oates - not as much star power as some others, but man, could he put up points. Regularly made his linemates better.

8. Guy Lapointe - Strong prime where he consistently received recognition for the Norris trophy Excellent on both the PP and PK. From 1973-1979, he finished 2nd, 6th, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th in Norris voting in consecutive years.

9/10/11. Bure/Langway/Phillips. Langway was healthier in his prime, but Bure has the 1994 playoffs. Phillips goes somewhere around here I think.

Definitely NRs: Kariya, Stuart: In a way, Kariya is like a more balanced Bure, but even I give Bure some bonus points for a few clutch performances and goal scoring titles. Hod Stuart had a short prime like Tommy Phillips, but he didn’t contribute to winning teams like Phillips did. Kenora shocked the world when they won the Cup, with Phillips as their best player by a wide margin. I’m not entirely sure where I’m putting Phillips, but I’m pretty comfortable with him above Stuart.

How is Langway not higher then Perreault? In his 2 Norris victories, he beat out Mark Howe/Raymond Bourque/Paul Coffey/Denis Potvin. Here is the list of players Gilbert Perreault beat out in his award victories............. . That alone should put Langway over Perreault.

 

[danincanada]

Does anyone question that Selke record just a little bit?

We’re talking about a player who received top-4 forward distribution for his team on the penalty kill just once in his career (the 2013 lockout season). Pavel Bure and Paul Kariya spent more time on the Penalty Kill in just 1998-2003 than Pavel Datsyuk did from 2008 (his first high Selke finish) through the end of his NHL career in 2016.

Datsyuk didn’t have the standout moments as a shadow the way some of his teammates did. He more or less just had takeaways, a highly-subjective new stat in 2006 that essentially launched a narrative. Other takeaway leaders from the era include Rob Blake (2006), Evgeni Malkin (2009), Joe Thornton (2011) - and even Connor McDavid (2018).

If it wasn’t such a brand new stat at the time of his peak specifically, would Datsyuk have ever gotten such buzz for his defensive play when his team essentially did not want prioritize utilizing him when down a player? Five years earlier, and it might have been the Mike Modano or Martin St. Louis stat, and maybe we’d have already had someone like a Bure or a Kariya come along like Malkin and McDavid did later on to drive home the point that it’s nothing worth distributing a Selke over.

He’s worth more than his cumulative NHL points, sure (a total that Kariya reached in ~70 fewer games), but how much more is what I question, particularly with a player for whom it took six playoff runs on a (the?) Stanley Cup favorite to produce something that didn’t mostly suck. Most players don’t get that many bites at the apple in their career, and Datsyuk is one of the few to produce a relatively uneaten apple after that many bites in his prime years without getting excoriated for it.

I just don’t get it, did you live in Detroit during Datsyuk’s career and did you semi-follow the Red Wings at the time, or not?

You are being far too harsh regarding his early playoff career if you followed what was going on at the time. He played a very limited role as a rookie but did have a role on a stacked team for that Cup run. It was impressive that he got Bowman’s attention in training camp with no AHL experience and little fanfare coming over. He definitely caught everyone’s eye right away. He was an Irbe pad save away from a lot of fanfare if he won game 3 OT in the finals with this:



Then he was shut out by Giguere like the rest of his team in ‘03. Then dragged around and out of shape/uninspired Hull on his line before the lockout. At that point I don’t think he had a great playoff career but hardly one to criticize too much. The criticism really mounted in ‘06 when the CBC kept taking about his goalless streak but according to Yzerman he shouldn’t have even played in that series cause his leg was a mess. He missed the first game but tried to play through it anyways. I remember Yzerman telling the media to lay off Datsyuk after losing to the Oilers, then he made Holland look like a genius, who signed him to a big contract because prior to the ‘07 playoffs, because many said he wasn’t worth the money due to his playoff performances. He quieted all the critics in ‘the 07 playoffs. You are downplaying those playoffs but anyone paying attention at the time knew Datsyuk and Zetterberg and the gang were for real and were coming to burn down some cities in the playoffs soon. Pronger and Niedermayer feared them both in the ‘07 playoffs and it was a coming out party for them. Datsyuk was obviously great in ‘08. He was also incredible in the ‘10 and ‘11 playoffs but his team around him was worn out and on the downswing. In ‘09 he had injury problems and the Ducks shadowed him with Marchant. I’ll always wonder if he could have turned the tables on Malkin in the ‘09 finals had he been healthy. Would have been a great duel.

I don’t really care where he ends up in this project because frankly i still have no idea what you guys are doing here. Maybe someone should post some quotes of what peers thought of Datsyuk. Might shine a more positive light on him than focusing on things he disproved 13 years ago about his playoff play. He changed the sport and inspired a whole generation of danglers and made an art out of stealing the puck. Not sure if that matters or not for more current players like it does for guys that can’t be watched.

 

[DN28]

I've had Vladimir Krutov firmly in my top 100. The best 1980s left winger in my opinion. I guess the best way to "explain" Krutov is to go through his career season-by-season and see how he stacked up against his competition.

Age 19, Krutov has strong entrance onto the international scene. Despite infamous loss of the USSR at the Olympics 1980, Krutov is 2nd in his team's scoring and 7th overall. He was not in the top 10 league scoring yet though. Overall, Krutov's rookie season created enough of a buzz for Soviet voters to vote him 2nd best Soviet player just behind Makarov. Also voted as 7th best Euro player, right ahead of age 23 Peter Šťastný who then went to NHL. Given the votings and stats, Krutov is probably below Makarov and Mikhailov, otherwise on a similar level with Mats Näslund who had a terrific season in Sweden (Golden Puck award for best SWE player). I can't see anyone better than these four in '80 Europe.

Krutov's regresses for the next 2 seasons, he barely receives votes in SPOTY and has no votes in Izvestia. Just in terms of Soviet LWs, Sergei Kapustin appears to be better in 1981 and 1982. Nothing special overall, although Krutov had amazing Canada Cup 1981 and cracked the top 10 league scoring by finishing 3rd in 1982.

Krutov establishes himself as one of the top Euro players by the 1983 season. He is 2nd in SPOTY (behind Tretiak) and 2nd in Izvestia voting (also behind Tretiak). Leads CSKA Moscow in scoring due to Makarov's injury. He's WHC all-star and is 2nd to Makarov in WHC '83 scoring. Tretiak, Krutov and Makarov stand out as clear top 3 players in Europe; Krutov the best LW.

Krutov's 1984 is below average. His league performance was good as he was 2nd to Makarov and won the goal-scoring but his international scoring was subpar. He was 8th in SPOTY behind five of his teammates and 5th in Izvestia. Amongst Krutov's LW competition, Alexander Kozhevnikov had similar voting record and scored at higher rate domestically and internationally; Czechoslovakian Igor Liba had probably his career year winning the Golden Stick; Swedish Peter Gradin led 'Tre Kronor' in Olympic scoring and finished 7th in Izvestia voting... Overall, Krutov is a top 10 player in Europe still for the '84 season but a good amount of Fs, Ds and Gs are ahead of him and Kozhevnikov would be my personal choice for the top Euro LW here.

Krutov is undoubtedly the best Euro LW for the next 4 seasons. Krutov is WHC '85 all-star, 2nd in league scoring, also leads the USSR in Canada Cup '84 scoring. He's 7th in SPOTY, 5th in Izvestia.

Krutov is 3rd in 1986 SPOTY and 2nd in Izvestia voting. He's WHC '86 all-star and 3rd in league scoring. Krutov, Makarov and Fetisov is a clear top 3 of Euros in this season.

Krutov's 1987 peak season is one of the all-time best seasons of any European player - pre Cold war or post Cold war - ever. As @Batis wrote earlier, Krutov's Soviet Player of the Year win is historically the most dominant - out of 89 ballots, Krutov was the #1 on 85 of them. National team coaches who voted on Izvestia award for the best European player also put Krutov on #1. Not only that Krutov won the WHC '87 all-star voting but he also won the tournament' scoring. One thing Krutov didn't reach even this season was the position of leading scorer in the USSR league, but this time Makarov edged out Krutov by only 3 points while the "Tank" won the goal-scoring. Here, I'd have Krutov as the 2nd best player in the world after Gretzky.

Krutov is 3rd in 1988 SPOTY (after Larionov and Fetisov) and 2nd in 1988 Izvestia (after Fetisov). Krutov is Canada Cup all-star next to Lemieux and Gretzky and then leads the OG in scoring. Although Krutov missed approximately a quarter of league games this year, thus he finishes only 8th in domestic scoring. Overall, I guess Fetisov was the best '88 Euro player while either Krutov or Larionov were the two best forwards with Makarov right behind them.

Last season of Krutov's extended prime was still good - 5th in SPOTY, 2nd in league scoring - but far away from his 86-88 run. For the first time since 1983 he didn't get any Izvestia votes. He was not an WHC 1989 all-star too, unlike his teammates Makarov, Bykov and Fetisov. Best LW in Europe yes, but barely a top 10 Euro player overall.
_________________

SUMMARY:

1980 - Top 5 player in Europe; 1st or 2nd best Euro LW.
1981 - Filler season, maybe a top 30 player in Europe?
1982 - Better than previous one, probably a top 20 player in Europe.
1983 - Top 3 player in Europe; 1st best Euro LW.
1984 - Top 10 player in Europe. 2nd or 3rd best Euro LW.
1985 - Top 10 player in Europe; 1st best Euro LW.
1986 - Top 3 player in Europe; 1st best Euro LW.
1987 - The best player in Europe.
1988 - Top 3 player in Europe; 1st best Euro LW.
1989 - Top 10 player in Europe; 1st best Euro LW.

 

[DN28]

Re: Bure vs. Krutov debate.

Krutov was healthier, more consistent than Bure through his prime.

Krutov was superior defensively to Bure.

Peak or prime, I just don't see a case for Bure over Krutov.

Yes, Bure's 1994 season (RS + PO) was excellent, almost as good as Krutov's 1987, but outside of that?
________________

One thing about Krutov, which was touched on earlier, is his excellent play versus Canada or NHL teams. Krutov is the all-time leader among Soviets in PPG against North American teams. Source: Soviet players stats against NA professionals

Table 1. Ranked by PPG against NA teams in general:

#	Player	GP	G	A	P	PPG	GPG
1	Krutov	27	18	16	34	1,26	0,67
2	Petrov	33	18	22	40	1,21	0,55
3	Kharlamov	39	19	28	47	1,21	0,49
4	Yakushev	31	21	14	35	1,13	0,68
5	Makarov	31	15	20	35	1,13	0,48
6	Varnakov	24	13	12	25	1,04	0,54
7	Kapustin	28	11	17	28	1,00	0,39
8	Bykov	25	11	13	24	0,96	0,44
9	Balderis	24	13	10	23	0,96	0,54
10	Mikhailov	40	20	16	36	0,90	0,50
11	Skvortsov	27	12	12	24	0,89	0,44
12	Shalimov	27	8	15	23	0,85	0,30
13	Maltsev	40	13	20	33	0,83	0,33
14	Larionov	22	6	12	18	0,82	0,27
15	Fetisov	31	8	17	25	0,81	0,26

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

If you rather rank Eastern Bloc players according to how they played vs. Canada or NHL, then Krutov should be very high on your ballot.

 

[quoipourquoi]

I find Datsyuk to be over appreciated but not overrated if that makes any sense.

I also have a problem with him having 4 Selkes and Zetterberg having zero. That should feel wrong for anybody who watched them in their primes, especially in their finals runs.

I was trying not to explicitly say it since we’ve had enough discussion about ineligible players, but yeah, pretty much this.

Zetterberg was getting Selke attention by his third season, whereas Datsyuk didn’t receive a single Selke vote until his fifth season when he led takeaways (he still didn’t finish particularly high at 20th in Selke voting).

In his sixth year, Datsyuk had his first of two high-scoring finishes (4th) to go with the takeaway lead, and then the reputation snowballed and kept rolling downhill picking up Selke nominations when he was healthy, regardless of whether non-defensive forwards like Malkin led the stat or guys like Loui Eriksson put up similar ratios of takeaways to giveaways.

That he’s only 5th among Red Wings forwards in total SH minutes from 2002-2016 (a time frame that should be tailored to making him look better) and only 7th among Red Wings forwards in the playoffs suggests that his defensive prowess wasn’t leaned on all that heavily outside of 5-on-5 situations. And even then, his small range of big plus-minus seasons (2007-2009) really just coincided with his offensive peak rather than some demonstrated ability to snuff out the opposition.

 

[DN28]

My Soviet league VsX equivalencies have Krutov at the following:

100
86
86
84
83
76
71
62
60
55

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

7 year: 83.7
10 year: 76.4

It's up to each individual whether they care what those numbers say, but the 1980s Soviet numbers are based typically on Makarov. They are based on taking a subjective look at Makarov's dominance of the soviet league and the dominance of non-Gretzky players in the NHL, then deciding where he should slot in, sort of working in reverse from what caliber of player we at HOH have decided Makarov is.

That said, Makarov's 10 year score comes out to 99.4 and his 7-year comes out to 104.9, (so he's about equal to Crosby and ahead of Richard), so maybe they overrate him by about 5%. If a recalibration is in order, it would drop Krutov by the same relative amount.

So in any case, whatever you think of Krutov's numbers, he doesn't make me yell "OMG he belongs on the list right now" or "what is he doing up for already?" - he seems a perfectly appropriate offensive player for this round.

But since your Soviet league VsX - if I understand it correctly - only counts points from the Soviet league, it misses the most important part of each season, i.e. World Championships or Olympics. It also misses Canada Cups, Superseries, Rendez-vous '87 etc. - all the difficult games in which Krutov excelled.

It's like counting NHL VsX from September to January...

If I were to offer some alternative method it would probably be to look at Europeans in NHL from 1991 to 2020. That's a long enough 30-season sample size. Make averages of what each season's 1st best, 2nd best, 3rd best etc. European LWer produced. Then go back to pre-1990 Cold war era and apply it there.

I'm positive that Krutov's VsX would then look strongly among this vote's forwards. Add to that Krutov's physicality, two-way game, penalty killing, Canada Cup and Superseries performances and you have a guy ready to go on our list right now.

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

With regards to Tommy Phillips, who unfortunately played most of his peak in the weaker MHL, I've tried to estimate his true scoring ability through his time in the CAHL/ECAHA and Cup Challenges, plus one season in the PCHA. (As usual, adjusted to opponent GA/GP of 3.00, 82-game seasons, and 18-skater rosters.) Here is what I found:

Peak Years	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G	Notes
1903-04	Toronto	4	7	3.75	41	19	Cup Challenge vs. Ottawa
1904-05	Rat Portage	3	8	4.07	25	16	Cup Challenge vs. Ottawa, weighted average of Ottawa’s GA from previous and next season*
1906-07	Kenora	4	9	3.90	33	19	Two Cup Challenges vs. Wanderers
1907-08	Ottawa	10	26	7.16	82	30
TOTAL		21	50	5.45	181	84
Rate					82	38

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

* Ottawa was in the FAHL for a season in 1904-05, where its GA/GP was 2.38... but that was against very weak competition.

It is worth noting that his Cup Challenge production is actually extremely good, with a definite retro Conn Smythe coming in 1907 when Kenora defeated the Wanderers. In Cup Challenges, he's basically a modern 50-goal scorer in a couple of years and an almost-40-goal scorer in another. (This becomes relevant later.)

Overall, I would estimate his 4-year VsX at 76 (or VsX(goals) of 38).

Next, we have his PCHA season in 1911-12. Here are the top 10 scorers with their adjusted scoring:

Name	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G
Newsy Lalonde	Vancouver Millionaires	15	27	5.40	77	43
Harry Hyland	New Westminster Royals	15	26	5.92	77	38
Tommy Dunderdale	Victoria Senators	16	24	5.70	82	36
Frank Patrick	Vancouver Millionaires	15	23	5.40	77	36
Don Smith	Victoria Senators	16	19	5.70	82	28
Sibby Nichols	Vancouver Millionaires	15	19	5.40	77	30
Tommy Phillips	Vancouver Millionaires	17	17	5.40	87	27
Ran McDonald	New Westminster Royals	15	16	5.92	77	23
Ken Mallen	New Westminster Royals	13	14	5.92	67	20
Lester Patrick	Victoria Senators	16	10	5.70	82	15
Bobby Rowe	Victoria Senators	16	10	5.70	82	15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He's roughly a modern 25-goal scorer here. (Not entirely sure how Phillips played two more games than the team that he is on, but I mostly care about his rate of scoring, so whatevs.)

How about his lone season in the CAHL?

Season	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G
1902-03	Montreal	4	6	5.05	41	12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Again, he looks like a 25-goal scorer here, which translates to a VsX of roughly 50 (or VsX(goals) of 25).

Overall, my estimate of his 7-year VsX is [(76 x 4) + (50 x 3)]/7 ~ 65 (or VsX(goals) ~ 32.5).

So, who's a modern-day comparable? Someone with a 7-year VsX(goals) in the low 30's, has a Conn Smythe, a couple of playoff runs scoring like a 50-goal scorer and another like a 40-goal scorer?

Claude Lemieux, with a 7-year VsX(goals) of 30.7.

It is worth noting that in the regular season, Phillips definitely peaks higher than Claude Lemieux ever does (a difference of roughly 2 in VsX isn't exactly small that far down the list), but Lemieux does have a longevity advantage. (I can't even construct a 10-year VsX for Phillips.) Additionally, it is worth noting that Phillips is also noted in contemporary reports as being excellent defensively, whereas Claude Lemieux only received a smattering of Selke votes during his entire career.

TL;DR: I don't know where Phillips should be ranked, but he should be ranked above Claude Lemieux... but probably not by a whole lot.

 

[Toronto Maple Beast]

I don’t really care where he ends up in this project because frankly i still have no idea what you guys are doing here. Maybe someone should post some quotes of what peers thought of Datsyuk. Might shine a more positive light on him than focusing on things he disproved 13 years ago about his playoff play. He changed the sport and inspired a whole generation of danglers and made an art out of stealing the puck. Not sure if that matters or not for more current players like it does for guys that can’t be watched.

In 2012, The Hockey News had a ranking of the top 50 NHL players, voted on by the players themselves. Datsyuk was ranked 2nd after Crosby. I don't think guys like Delvecchio, Oates, Lapointe or Niedermayer would ever be ranked in the top 2 in the league and in general I would say peak is more important than longevity.

The offensive numbers don't show it but Datsyuk was consistently among the best players in the league and one of the most talented of all-time.

 

[Sanf]

With regards to Tommy Phillips, who unfortunately played most of his peak in the weaker MHL, I've tried to estimate his true scoring ability through his time in the CAHL/ECAHA and Cup Challenges, plus one season in the PCHA. (As usual, adjusted to opponent GA/GP of 3.00, 82-game seasons, and 18-skater rosters.) Here is what I found:

Peak Years	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G	Notes
1903-04	Toronto	4	7	3.75	41	19	Cup Challenge vs. Ottawa
1904-05	Rat Portage	3	8	4.07	25	16	Cup Challenge vs. Ottawa, weighted average of Ottawa’s GA from previous and next season*
1906-07	Kenora	4	9	3.90	33	19	Two Cup Challenges vs. Wanderers
1907-08	Ottawa	10	26	7.16	82	30
TOTAL		21	50	5.45	181	84
Rate					82	38

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

* Ottawa was in the FAHL for a season in 1904-05, where its GA/GP was 2.38... but that was against very weak competition.

It is worth noting that his Cup Challenge production is actually extremely good, with a definite retro Conn Smythe coming in 1907 when Kenora defeated the Wanderers. In Cup Challenges, he's basically a modern 50-goal scorer in a couple of years and an almost-40-goal scorer in another. (This becomes relevant later.)

Overall, I would estimate his 4-year VsX at 76 (or VsX(goals) of 38).

Next, we have his PCHA season in 1911-12. Here are the top 10 scorers with their adjusted scoring:

Name	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G
Newsy Lalonde	Vancouver Millionaires	15	27	5.40	77	43
Harry Hyland	New Westminster Royals	15	26	5.92	77	38
Tommy Dunderdale	Victoria Senators	16	24	5.70	82	36
Frank Patrick	Vancouver Millionaires	15	23	5.40	77	36
Don Smith	Victoria Senators	16	19	5.70	82	28
Sibby Nichols	Vancouver Millionaires	15	19	5.40	77	30
Tommy Phillips	Vancouver Millionaires	17	17	5.40	87	27
Ran McDonald	New Westminster Royals	15	16	5.92	77	23
Ken Mallen	New Westminster Royals	13	14	5.92	67	20
Lester Patrick	Victoria Senators	16	10	5.70	82	15
Bobby Rowe	Victoria Senators	16	10	5.70	82	15

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

He's roughly a modern 25-goal scorer here. (Not entirely sure how Phillips played two more games than the team that he is on, but I mostly care about his rate of scoring, so whatevs.)

How about his lone season in the CAHL?

Season	Club	GP	G	Oppo. GA	Adj. GP	Adj. G
1902-03	Montreal	4	6	5.05	41	12

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Again, he looks like a 25-goal scorer here, which translates to a VsX of roughly 50 (or VsX(goals) of 25).

Overall, my estimate of his 7-year VsX is [(76 x 4) + (50 x 3)]/7 ~ 65 (or VsX(goals) ~ 32.5).

So, who's a modern-day comparable? Someone with a 7-year VsX(goals) in the low 30's, has a Conn Smythe, a couple of playoff runs scoring like a 50-goal scorer and another like a 40-goal scorer?

Claude Lemieux, with a 7-year VsX(goals) of 30.7.

It is worth noting that in the regular season, Phillips definitely peaks higher than Claude Lemieux ever does (a difference of roughly 2 in VsX isn't exactly small that far down the list), but Lemieux does have a longevity advantage. (I can't even construct a 10-year VsX for Phillips.) Additionally, it is worth noting that Phillips is also noted in contemporary reports as being excellent defensively, whereas Claude Lemieux only received a smattering of Selke votes during his entire career.

TL;DR: I don't know where Phillips should be ranked, but he should be ranked above Claude Lemieux... but probably not by a whole lot.

Excellent work again. I don´t want to say anything in where Phillips should be ranked. Just that he played 14 games that 1912 PCHA season. I think Wiki use Trail as source? It has various mistakes and those are traslated to Wiki , but can´t criticize it too much because when it was made the tools to research weren´t on todays level.

Though I know we have even here some top notch wiki updaters/fixers whose work is more than solid.

 

[Dingo]

Career takeaways/giveaways

Zetterberg 454/482

Datsyuk 754/480

interesting, and id like to add a completely unprovable, anecdotal, eyetest testament to that -
Zetterberg played the perimeter, puck possession game. He skated in a circle, kept his body between the puck and the opposition and made safe passes, plus took shots from outside. (In no way do I intend this as a way of saying he was soft in any form, as he was large grit sandpaper and a tireless, dogged pursuer of opposing players. He just played a safe, dependable offensive style)
Datsyuk went one on one, and one on two, and one against three, and tried all sorts of crazy shit to get a chance in close, and he did it several times every game.
What im saying is that his giveaways would be nearly nonexistent if he didnt take so many chances, (but his highlight vids also wouldn't be offensively mindboggling, on the other side of things.)

 

[Dingo]

In 2012, The Hockey News had a ranking of the top 50 NHL players, voted on by the players themselves. Datsyuk was ranked 2nd after Crosby. I don't think guys like Delvecchio, Oates, Lapointe or Niedermayer would ever be ranked in the top 2 in the league and in general I would say peak is more important than longevity.

The offensive numbers don't show it but Datsyuk was consistently among the best players in the league and one of the most talented of all-time.

Pavel Datsyuk Currently the Best Hockey Player in the World, Peers Agree

 

[quoipourquoi]

If people haven’t voted yet and wanted to, please do so now.