Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 5

[quoipourquoi]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, February 12th at midnight and continue through Sunday, February 14th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, February 15th.


Vote 5 Candidates

• Alex Delvecchio
  
• Bernie Parent
• Busher Jackson
• Doug Bentley
• Gilbert Perreault
• Guy Lapointe
• Ivan Johnson
• Jack Stewart
• Pavel Bure
• Pavel Datsyuk
• Roberto Luongo
• Rod Langway
• Scott Niedermayer
• Tommy Phillips

Click to read more...

 

[quoipourquoi]

If anyone wants me to refer to Johnson by "Ivan Johnson", let me know (publicly or privately) and I will make the change.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Fun group.

Niedermayer and Datsyuk make an interesting comparison that I’ve never thought about till now.

Phillips = Russell Bowie Part II

Parent and Luongo...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

If anyone wants me to refer to Johnson by "Ivan Johnson", let me know (publicly or privately) and I will make the change.

I used to always call him by his nickname, and I submitted him to our list under that name. But just this year in the ATD, someone brought up that his nickname is actually really offensive, and it made me pause... and it's hard to disagree.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Ivan Johnson and Roberto Luongo will be very high on my list. Possibly the top 2, though Jack Stewart might have something to say about it.

I like Perreault, Jackson, and Delvecchio among the forwards.

This is just first impressions of course.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Fun group.

Niedermayer and Datsyuk make an interesting comparison that I’ve never thought about till now.

Phillips = Russell Bowie Part II

Parent and Luongo...

Phillips' peak is just soooo short. That's the biggest advantage Bowie had over Phillips, Stuart, and McGee - Bowie actually had good longevity.

 

[Professor What]

Should I go ahead and get half of the group throwing rotten vegetables at me by saying that Bure is my definite #1 this round?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Should I go ahead and get half of the group throwing rotten vegetables at me by saying that Bure is my definite #1 this round?

Why?

He won't get in anyway.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Really strong additions...

 

[Professor What]

Why?

He won't get in anyway.

He was only six points out last time. I just couldn't resist the joke since I know he's going to have my top vote this round with Vasiliev and Quackenbush getting in last time.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

He was only six points out last time. I just couldn't resist the joke since I know he's going to have my top vote this round with Vasiliev and Quackenbush getting in last time.

It was Bure's third time up and as you alluded to before, half the voters are still going NR on him.

Pretty sure that's not going to change. Good chance he won't get that close this round.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Since Phillips is the only new forward candidate, this post is still useful for comparing 5-year peaks in detail.

The format doesn't work well for Phillips because individual awards were all but non-existent... we really have to go on stats, team results, and strong opinions expressed by observers:

	Bentley	Bure	Datsyuk	Delvecchio	Jackson	Perreault	Phillips
Best	1949 AS - 2nd at C behind Abel, ahead of Ronty Hart - 4th, tied with 2 others (Lindsay/Ronty) 6th goals 1st assists 2nd points This was a season played without Max on the team Playoffs - None	1994 AS - 1st at RW over Neely, Hull Hart - Fringe 1st goals X assists 5th points Playoffs - Excellent; led all players in goals, led his team in all offensive categories, fell 1 goal short of a Cup	2009 AS - 2nd at C behind Malkin and ahead of Crosby Hart - 3rd behind Ovechkin/Malkin Selke - 1st, narrowly over Mike Richards X goals 5th assists 4th points Playoffs - Disappointing, largely due to playing through injury	1953 AS - 2nd at C behind MacKell Hart - None X goals 2nd assists 4th points Playoffs - Solid showing in a first-round upset	1932 AS - 1st over Joliat/Kilrea Hart - None 3rd goals 3rd assists 1st points Playoffs - Very good in a Cup win Kid Line influence	1976 AS - 2nd at C behind Clarke, narrowly ahead of Mahovlich Hart - Fringe 9th goals 3rd assists 3rd points Playoffs - Slightly disappointing in a 2-round run WHA season	1907 Manitoba League: Tommy Phillips 6gp 18-4-26 Jack Fraser 10gp 10-7-17 Joe Hall 10gp 14-3-17 also note: Tommy Dunderdale 10gp 9-3-12 Playoffs - Kenora's successful Cup challenge in January made him famous. He was also effective, though less dominant, in Manitoba tournament and Cup loss in March.
2nd Best	1943 AS - 2nd at LW ahead of Patrick Hart - 2nd behind Cowley 1st goals 5th assists 1st points Playoffs - None Scored more raw points than Max, though Max had higher PPG Wartime season	2000 AS - 2nd at LW behind Jagr and ahead of Nolan Hart - 3rd, close behind Pronger and Jagr 1st goals X assists 2nd points Playoffs - Decent individual showing in a sweep Notorious for lack of defense during this period Dead Puck season	2008 AS - 3rd at C, narrowly behind Thornton and ahead of Lecavalier, Crosby Hart - Fringe Selke - 1st over Madden, Zetterberg X goals 2nd assists 4th points Playoffs - Was very good on the way to a Cup	1959 AS - 2nd at LW behind Moore X in major stat categories Playoffs - None	1933 AS - 2nd behind Northcott, ahead of Bun Cook Hart - None 2nd goals X assists 2nd points Playoffs - Entire Kid Line was weirdly disappointing in a Finals run Kid Line influence	1977 AS - 2nd at C, narrowly behind Dionne and well ahead of Clarke Hart - None 7th goals 9th assists 5th points Playoffs - Good in 2 rounds WHA season	1908 ECAHA: Russell Bowie 10gp 31-5-36 Tommy Phillips 10gp 26-4-30 Marty Walsh 9gp 27-3-30 Highest paid hockey player in Canada Playoffs - None
3rd Best	1947 AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Dumart Hart - none X goals 4th assists 6th points Playoffs - None Outscored by Max Not wartime, but 1947 is a somewhat weak season	2001 AS - 2nd at RW behind Jagr and ahead of Kovalev Hart - Fringe 1st goals X assists 7th points Playoffs - None Notorious for lack of defense during this period Dead Puck season	2010 AS - Fringe Hart - None Selke - 1st narrowly over Kesler X in major stat categories Playoffs - Decent in 2 rounds. Increased his regular season output, but still lower than 2 teammates	1966 AS - Fringe Hart - None 3rd goals 9th assists 7th points Playoffs - Productive yet odd. In a Finals run, he led all players in assists but didn't score any goals	1935 AS - 1st at LW ahead of Gottselig, Thompson Hart - None 3rd goals X assists 5th points Playoffs - Very strong; led league in playoff points despite losing a Finals sweep. Kid Line influence	1980 AS - 3rd at C, way behind Dionne and Gretzky and about even with Trottier Hart - Fringe X goals 4th assists 4th points Playoffs - Dominant in 3 rounds	1906 Manitoba League: Tommy Phillips 8gp 24-7-31 Billy Breen 10gp 24-6-30 Billy McGimsie 9gp 21-3-24 Playoffs - None... Kenora challenged for the Cup, but series wasn't played till 1908.
4th Best	1944 AS - 1st at LW, over Cain Hart - 3rd behind Pratt/Cowley, narrowly over Seibert 1st goals 9th assists 2nd points Playoffs - Strong 1st round, questionable Finals No Max this season The most talent-depleted season in history	1993 AS - 3rd at RW, behind Selanne, Mogilny and narrowly over Tocchet and Recchi Hart - None 5th goals X assists X points Playoffs - Solid in 2 rounds, but below his regular season level	2013 AS - Fringe Hart - Fringe Selke - 3rd behind Toews, Bergeron Unranked goals 8th assists 10th points Playoffs - Disappointing in 2 rounds	1965 AS - Fringe at both C and LW Hart - Fringe 8th goals 4th assists 5th points Playoffs - Decent showing in a first-round loss	1937 AS - 1st ahead of Schriner, Lewis, Joliat Hart - None 4th goals 9th assists 5th points Playoffs - Scored Toronto's only goal in a 2-game series loss No Kid Line	1975 AS - 3rd behind Clarke and Esposito, ahead of Dionne Hart - None X goals X assists 9th points Playoffs - Good in 3 rounds WHA season	1905 Manitoba League: Tommy Phillips 8gp 29-9-38 Billy McGimsie 8gp 28-5-33 Billy Breen 9gp 25-2-27 Playoffs - Starred in the Thistles' Cup Challenge
5th Best	1948 AS - Fringe Hart - Fringe Playoffs - None X goals 1st assists 3rd points No Max	1998 AS - 3rd at RW, behind Jagr/Selanne and narrowly ahead of Bondra Hart - None 3rd goals X assists 3rd inpoints Playoffs - None	2006 AS - Fringe Hart - Fringe X goals 9th assists X points Playoffs - Very disappointing in a first-round upset Weird post-lockout season	1956 AS - Fringe Hart - None 7th goals X assists 9th points Playoffs - strong in a Finals run	1934 AS - 1st at LW, narrowly over Joliat Hart - None 6th goals 10th assists 7th points Playoffs - Very disappointing in a first-round upset	1973 AS - None Hart - 3rd behind Esposito/Clarke, ahead of Lemaire, Ratelle, MacLeish X in major stat categories Playoffs - Good in a first-round loss WHA season	1912 PCHA: 14 games, 17 goals (no assists recorded that year) As a pace, that put Phillips around Don Smith and Sibby Nichols, and a few goals below the top tier that included his teammates Newsy Lalonde and Frank Patrick, as well as Dunderdale and Harry Hyland. Phillips had spent the prior year in retirement, played this season, and then retired again.

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Phillips played an important, but non-dominant role in a successful 1903 Cup challenge with Montreal AAA (that team was led in scoring by Jack Marshall and Archie Hooper). He also played a support role in Toronto Marlboros' unsuccessful Cup challenge in 1904. Beyond that, there's not a whole lot of substance as he was a good but non-dominant scorer in short-season amateur leagues. Prior to 1902 he played primarily at defense.

 

[Professor What]

It was Bure's third time up and as you alluded to before, half the voters are still going NR on him.

Pretty sure that's not going to change. Good chance he won't get that close this round.

At the same time, as anyone those of us who have spoken up for him have anyone who might have been ahead of him is placed, he gains a few points. He'll gain two from me with Vasiliev and Quackenbush off the list, for example. Also, the deeper we go, those NR's will start to fade. A tenth here and a ninth there will close that before you know it. I think that if he doesn't make it this round, he will next.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7 YEAR	10 YEAR
Busher Jackson	106.0	100.0	93.6	88.9	88.4	77.3	72.1	61.4	59.1	55.0	89.5	80.2
Doug Bentley	101.4	98.1	95.0	87.3	81.1	76.8	66.7	63.6	48.5	48.1	86.6	76.7
Gilbert Perreault	95.0	90.5	89.1	84.6	81.7	80.0	79.3	74.4	73.3	67.9	85.7	81.6
Pavel Bure	100.0	98.9	95.8	89.2	76.7	74.3	61.4	51.7	50.5	28.8	85.2	72.7
Alex Delvecchio	96.7	88.5	83.3	83.1	82.1	80.7	79.1	79.0	78.6	77.6	84.8	82.9
Pavel Datsyuk	91.5	88.2	86.0	82.1	78.2	76.3	75.6	69.1	64.2	59.6	82.5	77.1
Guy Lapointe	72.4	62.0	58.2	57.1	51.9	48.9	47.4	45.0	38.5	21.8	56.9	50.3
Scott Niedermayer	62.6	62.1	60.5	59.4	53.6	44.0	43.0	40.4	38.3	37.5	55.0	50.2
Rod Langway	33.3	30.3	27.3	26.5	25.8	25.0	19.3	15.1	12.8	12.2	26.8	22.8
Ching Johnson	45.7	38.6	26.0	20.0	18.6	18.6	15.6	10.6	9.7	-	26.2	20.4
Jack Stewart	31.7	27.8	25.0	22.2	20.4	20.3	18.2	15.3	5.8	3.0	23.6	19.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wish I had more time to participate in a more substantive way.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Doug Bentley		1	1	1				3
Rod Langway		1		2				3
Bernie Parent		1		1				2
Ivan Johnson		1			1			2
Roberto Luongo		1				1		2
Pavel Bure			1				1	2
Gilbert Perreault					1		1	2
Scott Niedermayer							2	2
Pavel Datsyuk			1					1
Jack Stewart					1			1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Players who weren't eligible for the Hart - Phillips

Players who were eligible, but never received a non-trivial number of votes - Delvecchio, Jackson, Lapointe

Note that two of Bentley's three placements happened during WWII.

Norris trophy summary (5% vote threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Rod Langway	2		1		2		1	6
Scott Niedermayer	1	2			1			4
Guy Lapointe		1	1	2				4

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Stewart finished 2nd (1943*), 2nd (1948), 2nd (1949), 3rd (1947) and 4th (1946). Two notes - first, Stewart missed two prime years (1944 and 1945) due to World War II. It's also tough to figure out exactly how 1943* would translate into modern voting results. There were separate year-end spots for left and right D. Stewart decisively led left D in voting, but it looks like there was weaker competition there, so I've put him at second to be conservative.

Johnson was by far the leader among defensemen in Hart voting in 1928, so we can probably treat that as equivalent to a Norris trophy (this was before there were year-end all-star teams). He finished 4th in year-end all-star voting in 1931, 2nd in 1932, 2nd (I think - messy with left/right splits) in 1933, and probably 4th (again messy) in 1934. So his Norris record is probably roughly equivalent to 1st, 2nd, 2nd, 4th and 4th.

 

[Professor What]

I wish I had more time to participate in a more substantive way.

The number nerd in me loves the stuff you post. Don't think it's not appreciated.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

VsX summary

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7 YEAR	10 YEAR
Busher Jackson	106.0	100.0	93.6	88.9	88.4	77.3	72.1	61.4	59.1	55.0	89.5	80.2
Doug Bentley	101.4	98.1	95.0	87.3	81.1	76.8	66.7	63.6	48.5	48.1	86.6	76.7
Gilbert Perreault	95.0	90.5	89.1	84.6	81.7	80.0	79.3	74.4	73.3	67.9	85.7	81.6
Pavel Bure	100.0	98.9	95.8	89.2	76.7	74.3	61.4	51.7	50.5	28.8	85.2	72.7
Alex Delvecchio	96.7	88.5	83.3	83.1	82.1	80.7	79.1	79.0	78.6	77.6	84.8	82.9
Pavel Datsyuk	91.5	88.2	86.0	82.1	78.2	76.3	75.6	69.1	64.2	59.6	82.5	77.1
Guy Lapointe	72.4	62.0	58.2	57.1	51.9	48.9	47.4	45.0	38.5	21.8	56.9	50.3
Scott Niedermayer	62.6	62.1	60.5	59.4	53.6	44.0	43.0	40.4	38.3	37.5	55.0	50.2
Rod Langway	33.3	30.3	27.3	26.5	25.8	25.0	19.3	15.1	12.8	12.2	26.8	22.8
Ching Johnson	45.7	38.6	26.0	20.0	18.6	18.6	15.6	10.6	9.7	-	26.2	20.4
Jack Stewart	31.7	27.8	25.0	22.2	20.4	20.3	18.2	15.3	5.8	3.0	23.6	19.0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I wish I had more time to participate in a more substantive way.

Thanks. Among purely offensive players this round, Jackson and Perreault look really good, both peak and longevity of impact.

I really don't understand the argument for Bure over Gilbert Perreault in particular. If the "eye test" is important, isn't Perreault just as flashy and fun to watch and visually dominant? Wasn't he just as good in international play as Bure (with more longevity)? But Perreault absolutely kills Bure in longevity.

Jackson was a really flamboyant and popular player himself, but of course, the video of that era is limited at best.

If Francis went, Delvecchio can't be too far behind, right?

 

[sr edler]

It was Bure's third time up and as you alluded to before, half the voters are still going NR on him.

It's the perfect storm, because it means we got to talk about him in every single round of the project.

 

[MXD]

I'll repeat what TDMM said : Luongo and Johnson are two really, really strong additions. Both start out in the Top-3 (and are very, very unlikely to move from there).

The other two new entrants are also really strong too. Nidermayer has always been fairly rated here, and while I don't see Philipps as a candidate to get in, he's probably worth discussing.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

At the same time, as anyone those of us who have spoken up for him have anyone who might have been ahead of him is placed, he gains a few points. He'll gain two from me with Vasiliev and Quackenbush off the list, for example. Also, the deeper we go, those NR's will start to fade. A tenth here and a ninth there will close that before you know it. I think that if he doesn't make it this round, he will next.

We have already had a couple of posts saying 2 of the new additions will be in their top 3, possible 1 & 2.

Bure will be going backwards.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thanks. Among purely offensive players this round, Jackson and Perreault look really good, both peak and longevity of impact.

I really don't understand the argument for Bure over Gilbert Perreault in particular. If the "eye test" is important, isn't Perreault just as flashy and fun to watch and visually dominant? Wasn't he just as good in international play as Bure (with more longevity)? But Perreault absolutely kills Bure in longevity.

Jackson was a really flamboyant and popular player himself, but of course, the video of that era is limited at best.

If Francis went, Delvecchio can't be too far behind, right?

Yes, Perreault played longer than Bure.

But what else? Both flashy, yes. Both great in international play, correct.

Bure won the goal scoring title 3 times. He finished 2nd and 3rd in points. Perreault never finished first in any category. 3rd and 4th were his highest finishes in points as well as assists.

Bure was a first team all-star once, second team twice. Perreault twice second team. Yes, more difficult for Perreault as a center. So close.

Bure has a third place finish for the Hart, getting 11 first place. Perreault had a fifth place finish, no first place votes.

Bure had 34 career short-handed goals. Perreault had 8.

Playing on much worse teams than Perreault, Bure was a +42 to Perreault +41. In the playoffs Bure +8 and Perreault -21. Bure led his team in Plus/minus twice, Perreault highest finish for Buffalo was 4th.

Perreault and Craig Ramsey played on the same Buffalo teams for 14 seasons. Ramsey's career plus/minus was +324, Perreault +41.

In 1974-75 Perreault put up 96 points in 68 games. He was a +1. Don Luce, the second line center, put up 76 points and was a +61.

Conclusion: Bure was a much more valuable contributor to his teams than Perreault was to his Sabres.

 

[The Macho King]

My impression is that it's way too early for Niedermayer. Datsyuk is an interesting case - feels early for him but I'm curious as to the arguments - especially since he's not top flight offensively and defensively I'm coming around to him being a bit on the overrated side. Johnson should have been in for awhile and Luongo is a great fit here and a strong contender.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

My impression is that it's way too early for Niedermayer. Datsyuk is an interesting case - feels early for him but I'm curious as to the arguments - especially since he's not top flight offensively and defensively I'm coming around to him being a bit on the overrated side. Johnson should have been in for awhile and Luongo is a great fit here and a strong contender.

What's the argument for Johnson over Jack Stewart?

They look so similar on paper.

 

[The Macho King]

What's the argument for Johnson over Jack Stewart?

They look so similar on paper.

Era, competition, Hart voting (despite playing with two already voted on studs).

Edit: Also you can probably add a couple of more all stars on Johnson from before it was a thing.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Oops totally missed voting in round 4

Interesting to see who made it