Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 3

[overpass]

More Adams comments on the Quackenbush trade:

Observe his "plus a hard-hitting defenseman" comment, which could be interpreted in many ways. Quackenbush had just won the Lady Byng trophy, so the contrast was in the spotlight. It might just be a generic description of the player, or some indirect comment that he needed something else than a Lady Byng defenseman. I'm probably reading too much into it.

You’re not the only one to link the Lady Byng trophy to the trade. Stan Fischler called it the stupidest trade for the most inane reason in Who’s Who in Hockey, writing “Macho-minded Detroit general manager Jack Adams supposedly said ‘Any player who wins the Lady Byng doesn’t belong on my club.’”

And that’s my quota for Stan Fischler quotes.

 

[BenchBrawl]

You’re not the only one to link the Lady Byng trophy to the trade. Stan Fischler called it the stupidest trade for the most inane reason in Who’s Who in Hockey, writing “Macho-minded Detroit general manager Jack Adams supposedly said ‘Any player who wins the Lady Byng doesn’t belong on my club.’”

And that’s my quota for Stan Fischler quotes.

Right, thanks for making the connection. That quote says it all.

Hard to call it the stupidest trade, when the Red Wings immediately became a dynasty and Boston went nowhere.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Interesting, then, that Red Kelly went on to win 3 of the next 5 Byngs after Quackenbush was traded.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Interesting, then, that Red Kelly went on to win 3 of the next 5 Byngs after Quackenbush was traded.

In my megapost earlier, one of the blurbs was Kelly saying that Quackenbush mentored him.

 

[BenchBrawl]

Interesting, then, that Red Kelly went on to win 3 of the next 5 Byngs after Quackenbush was traded.

In my megapost earlier, one of the blurbs was Kelly saying that Quackenbush mentored him.

Red Kelly was an excellent boxer, even winning minor championship belts in his youth, so maybe the perception up close was different.

Legends of hockey: Some of Kelly's lessons were not only what to do on the ice, but how to stay on the ice. "I had a temper. I had red hair," Kelly laughs. "I was the welterweight boxing champ at St. Mike's. I could take care of myself. Joe Primeau taught me you don't win games in the penalty box. You've got to stay on the ice. Players would try to get you off the ice sometimes but you're more valuable to a team when you're on the ice."

Even if he doesn't use it, the fact that it's there can be perceived as a plus, at least in the eyes of a Jack Adams type.

 

[Batis]

I thought that it would be a good idea to do the same analysis for Vasiliev's prime (72/73-81/82) as I did with Holecek's. This time it is of course the Soviet player of the year voting shares that I am looking at. Vasiliev finished top-7 in six out of eight 3-year periods during his prime and he had the highest voting share among the defencemen in five of them.

72/73-74/75
1. Vladislav Tretiak 1.448
2. Valeri Kharlamov 1.175
3. Vladimir Petrov 0.851
4. Boris Mikhailov 0.817
5. Alexander Yakushev 0.628
6. Valeri Vasiliev 0.406

73/74-75/76
1. Vladislav Tretiak 1.946
2. Valeri Kharlamov 1.127
3. Boris Mikhailov 0.646
4. Alexander Yakushev 0.457
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.398
6. Valeri Vasiliev 0.360

74/75-76/77
1. Vladislav Tretiak 1.593
2. Valeri Kharlamov 0.994
3. Helmuts Balderis 0.785
4. Vladimir Petrov 0.677
5. Boris Mikhailov 0.567
6. Alexander Yakushev 0.386
7. Viktor Shalimov 0.213
8. Alexander Maltsev 0.211
9. Valeri Vasiliev 0.167

75/76-77/78
1. Vladislav Tretiak 1.546
2. Boris Mikhailov 0.925
3. Helmuts Balderis 0.912
4. Valeri Kharlamov 0.647
5. Vladimir Petrov 0.490
6. Alexander Maltsev 0.336
7. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.279
8. Viktor Shalimov 0.198
9. Sergei Kapustin 0.128
10. Alexander Yakushev 0.089
11. Vasili Pervukhin 0.075
12. Vladimir Shadrin 0.072
13. Valeri Vasiliev 0.058

76/77-78/79
1. Boris Mikhailov 1.155
2. Vladislav Tretiak 0.931
3. Helmuts Balderis 0.860
4. Vladimir Petrov 0.533
5. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.279
6. Valeri Kharlamov 0.263
7. Valeri Vasiliev 0.247

77/78-79/80
1. Boris Mikhailov 1.072
2. Sergei Makarov 0.938
3. Vladislav Tretiak 0.645
4. Valeri Vasiliev 0.338
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.335

78/79-80/81
1. Sergei Makarov 1.073
2. Vladislav Tretiak 0.855
3. Alexander Maltsev 0.729
4. Boris Mikhailov 0.488
5. Valeri Vasiliev 0.419

79/80-81/82
1. Sergei Makarov 1.371
2. Vladislav Tretiak 1.030
3. Alexander Maltsev 0.806
4. Vyacheslav Fetisov 0.523
5. Vladimir Krutov 0.370
6. Valeri Vasiliev 0.297

Even if Vasiliev finished one spot higher on the list for the 77/78-79/80 period I definitely think that the 78/79-80/81 period was his most impressive considering how much stronger his 80/81 season is compared to his 77/78 season. The reason that Vasiliev finished one spot lower during the second time frame is that the difference between Maltsev's 80/81 season and his 77/78 season was even bigger according to the Soviet player of the year voters.

It is also worth pointing out that during the 78/79-80/81 time frame Vasiliev's Izvestia golden stick voting record was even more impressive than his Soviet player of the year voting record. Here are the Izvestia golden stick voting shares from that time frame.

78/79-80/81
1. Sergei Makarov 0.711
2. Vladislav Tretiak 0.557
3. Boris Mikhailov 0.551
4. Valeri Vasiliev 0.408
5. Alexander Maltsev 0.390
6. Vladimir Martinec 0.196

Considering how dominant the Soviets were during this time frame it is not surprising that they also dominated the Izvestia golden stick voting. It also seems pretty clear that Vasiliev was one of the five best players in Europe here when taking into account the Soviet player of the year voting, the Izvestia golden stick voting and international accolades. Exactly how high he should rank is really the question. Considering how dominant Sergei Makarov was during this time frame the number one spot is clearly out of reach and I think that it is hard to make a case for Vasiliev being ranked ahead of Tretiak as well. If one highly values consistency I think that a case can be made for Vasiliev being ranked as the third best European of that time frame though. I don't know if I would do it myself but I can at least see the case for it and depending on how one weighs the different achievements I think that Vasiliev can rank anywhere in the 3-5 range. Here are some of the main achievements of the top-5 players of that 78/79-80/81 period.

Sergei Makarov:
1st in Soviet player of the year voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 4, 4
1st in Izvestia golden stick voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 4, 4
1 WHC Directorate Best Forward award, 2 WHC All-Star team selections

Vladislav Tretiak:
2nd in Soviet player of the year voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 5, 8
2nd in Izvestia golden stick voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 5, 6
2 WHC Directorate Best Goaltender awards, 1 WHC All-Star team selections

Alexander Maltsev:
3rd in Soviet player of the year voting shares with these voting finishes 2, 4
5th in Izvestia golden stick voting shares with these voting finishes 2, 10
1 WHC Directorate Best Forward award, 1 WHC All-Star team selections

Boris Mikhailov:
4th in Soviet player of the year voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 3
3rd in Izvestia golden stick voting shares with these voting finishes 1, 2
1 WHC Directorate Best Forward award, 1 WHC All-Star team selections

Valeri Vasiliev:
5th in Soviet player of the year voting shares with these voting finishes 2, 5, 6
4th in Izvestia golden stick voting shares with these voting finishes 2, 3, 8
1 WHC Best Defenceman award, 2 WHC All-Star team selections

To go back to the Vasiliev versus Holecek comparison I feel that having taken another look at both their primes and what I consider to be their peaks have made me even more sure of that I should rank Holecek ahead of Vasiliev than I was before. Holecek's peak is in my opinion clearly superior and even if Vasiliev had a longer prime I would still say that Holecek managed to achieve even more during his prime.

 

[buffalowing88]

I assumed you had sold stock in GameStop and were off picking out which island you wanted.

Caught me. Damn.

 

[buffalowing88]

I thought that it would be a good idea to do the same analysis for Vasiliev's prime (72/73-81/82) as I did with Holecek's. This time it is of course the Soviet player of the year voting shares that I am looking at. Vasiliev finished top-7 in six out of eight 3-year periods during his prime and he had the highest voting share among the defencemen in five of them.
.....

Excellent stuff here. I will definitely be referring back to anything Soviet-related moving forward as I tried to be mindful of the lack of statistical stuff/context but this certainly is a helpful tool. Thanks for taking the time to put this all out here.

 

[buffalowing88]

You’re not the only one to link the Lady Byng trophy to the trade. Stan Fischler called it the stupidest trade for the most inane reason in Who’s Who in Hockey, writing “Macho-minded Detroit general manager Jack Adams supposedly said ‘Any player who wins the Lady Byng doesn’t belong on my club.’”

And that’s my quota for Stan Fischler quotes.

Not totally related but, in all his years, there has got to be one good Stan Fischler take, right? I remember being like 10 years old and my neighbors who just moved here from Long Island were bitching about him. This was in North Carolina in the late 90s. The dude clearly resonated, I guess it's just in a talking head sort-of-way.

 

[Batis]

Here is a look at how the new available players performed in Best-on-Best tournaments.

Rod Langway
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 17 gp, 1 g, 3 a, 4 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 2 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Canada Cup 1981: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Accolades: Canada Cup All-Star team 1984

Pavel Datsyuk
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 29 gp, 6 g, 17 a, 23 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 10 gp, 1 g, 6 a, 7 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
World Cup 2004: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2006: 3 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2010: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2014: 2 gp, 0 g, 4 a, 4 pts

Accolades: -

As I mentioned in my earlier post Rod Langway's performances on the international stage has really impressed me. Obviously his numbers offensively are nothing that stands out but his defensive play very clearly did as evident by him making the All-Star team in the 1984 Canada Cup. So I would say that Langway has a impressive Best-on-Best resume even if he did not get to enjoy that much team success.

At first glance Pavel Datsyuk's numbers both overall and in the knockout stage look relatively strong. Regarding his knockout stage numbers it is however worth noting that Datsyuk scored 6 out of his 7 points in the bronze-medal game against Belarus in 2002 and the qualification playoffs game against Norway in 2014. So in the 8 knockout stage games against Canada, USA, Finland and the Czech Republic he only scored 1 point. With that in mind Datsyuk's Best-on-Best resume really leaves me rather unimpressed even if his overall numbers are relatively strong.

So how does the Best-on-Best resumes of Langway and Datsyuk measure up to the ones of the other available players? In my opinion Langway belongs close to the top of that list while Datsyuk probably lands somewhere between Savard/Vasiliev and Holecek/Stastny/Gilmour. So something like this.

Bure
Langway
Savard/Vasiliev
Datsyuk
Holecek/Stastny/Gilmour

This vote we also have two players (Bernie Parent and Ron Francis) who had their primes during the Best-on-Best tournaments era but never played at any of those tournaments. Ron Francis did play in exhibition games prior to the World Cup in 1996 but decided to pull out due to an injury.

Here are the numbers of the other available players again.

Doug Gilmour
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 8 gp, 2 g, 0 a, 2 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 4 gp, 2 g, 0 a, 2 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Canada Cup 1987: 4 gp, 2 g, 0 a, 2 pts

Accolades: -

Peter Stastny
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 15 gp, 1 g, 6 a, 7 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 5 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Canada Cup 1987: 3 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Accolades: -

Valeri Vasiliev
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 17 gp, 1 g, 6 a, 7 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 8 gp, 1 g, 3 a, 4 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Summit Series 1972: 6 gp, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
Canada Cup 1981: 2 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Accolades: -

Serge Savard
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 12 gp, 0 g, 5 a, 5 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 7 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Summit Series 1972: 5 gp, 0 g, 2 a, 2 pts
Canada Cup 1976: 2 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts

Accolades: -

Pavel Bure
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 12 gp, 11 g, 1 a, 12 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 6 gp, 7 g, 0 a, 7 pts

Knockout stage number broken down by tournament
Olympics 1998: 3 gp, 6 g, 0 a, 6 pts
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 1 g, 0 a, 1 pts

Accolades: Olympic Best Forward 1998

Jiri Holecek
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 5 gp, 68 saves on 79 shots* 0.861 SV%
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: ?**

Accolades: -

* Holecek's overall numbers from the 1976 Canada Cup are taken from this page. http://avlh.sweb.cz/CZ-sestavy.pdf

** Since I could not be completely sure of Holecek`s knockout stage numbers I decided to put a question mark instead of any estimated numbers. In Game 1 of the final series against Team Canada Holecek played the second and third period and according to the Canada Cup of Hockey Fact and Stat book he faced 20 shots and saved 18 of those. In Game 2 Holecek was pulled after having let in 2 goals in only 3 minutes and 9 seconds of play. I rewatched those first 3 minutes and outside of the 2 goals the only other shot that Holecek faced came from the neutral zone when Lafleur shot/dumped the puck in and Holecek steered the puck out in the corner. Depending on if they counted that as a shot on goal or not Holecek's knockout stage numbers would either be 18 saves on 22 shots for 0.818 SV% or 19 saves on 23 shots for 0.826 SV%

Serge Savard may not have put up any outstanding numbers offensively but his performance in the 1972 Summit Series has always impressed me and as tarheelhockey already has mentioned in this thread Team Canada's record in the 5 games that Savard played was excellent (4-0-1). In the 1976 Canada Cup Savard was part of the on paper strongest defensive line-up in history and I would say that he played his role well even if he did not stand out as much as he had done in 1972. All in all a strong Best-on-Best resume as well I would say.

Valeri Vasiliev also has a rather strong Best-on-Best tournaments resume. In the 1972 Summit Series he was one of the few Soviet players that had a positive plus-minus statistic and he also did produce some offense. Fair or not but his mistake on Henderson's last minute series winning goal does cloud away some of those positives for me though. In both the 1976 and 1981 Canada Cups I would say that he had rather strong but far from outstanding performances.

Considering what a productive player Peter Stastny was offensively I feel like his 7 points in 15 games are disappointing numbers. Especially considering that he only had 1 point in 5 games in the knockout stage. To be fair Stastny was quite young at the time of the 1976 Canada Cup as he turned 20 three days after the last game of the tournament. When taking that into account his 4 points in 7 games during that tournament does seem to be more or less what one realistically could expect from him. Stastny's subpar performance in the 1984 Canada Cup playing for Team Canada does in my opinion bring down his overall Best-on-Best resume though. As you can see in the video here below Stastny had been somewhat criticized throughout the camp for being a bit of a slow starter so it seems as if Stastny somewhat underperformed throughout both the training camp and the tournament where he ended up with 3 points in 8 games.



Doug Gilmour played in one Best-on-Best tournament (Canada Cup 1987) where he only scored 2 points in 8 games. To be fair Gilmour was used in a defensive role in that tournament and spent plenty of time on the penalty kill. It is perhaps also worth noting that Gilmour did score both of his points in the 3-game final series against the Soviets so at least he chipped in offensively in the games that mattered the most. Still it is clear that his Best-on-Best resume is less impressive than most of the other available players.

In the 1998 Olympics Pavel Bure was voted the Best Forward of the tournament and scored 9 goals in 6 games. That he went without a point in the two games against Hasek and the Czech Republic is in my opinion the only negative from Bure's performance in that tournament. Four years later he had a far less impressive tournament though with only 3 points in 6 games. Still I would say that Bure's overall Best-on-Best resume is impressive and more so than anything else his goalscoring numbers there.

Considering that Jiri Holecek came to the 1976 Canada Cup regarded by many as the best goaltender in Europe there is no doubt about that his performance there should be seen as a disappointment. Holecek was pulled in two of the four games that he started and his save percentage of 0.861 was the lowest among the goaltenders with a minimum of 120 minutes played during the tournament.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Hard to call it the stupidest trade, when the Red Wings immediately became a dynasty and Boston went nowhere.

Because the Wings already had the pieces of the dynasty in place prior to the trade.

Quackenbush was cleared out to make room for one of the best dmen of all time. The alternative was paying an all-star salary for him to watch from the bench.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Excellent stuff here. I will definitely be referring back to anything Soviet-related moving forward as I tried to be mindful of the lack of statistical stuff/context but this certainly is a helpful tool. Thanks for taking the time to put this all out here.

I second that... the Euro posts have been really helpful.

 

[DN28]

Re: Peter Šťastný and the question of his pre-NHL career.

I've adressed this topic during the Top-100 Players project so I'm just going to re-post the facts and my interpretation of the matter:

First and main point: Stastny had only one big season before NHL and that was his last one before he emigrated to Quebec.

Peter Stastny´s Golden Stick voting record: 15th (1976), 12th (1977), 12th (1978), 6th (1979), 1st (1980).

I think we can safely put off his first three international seasons since he was not even considered a top 10 player within his own country. 1979 - the season where Stastny won the League title, Slovan Bratislava upset the SONP Kladno and became the first Slovak team to win the 1st Czechoslovak League.. pretty good, but...

There were two forwards who dominated the whole Golden stick voting + the League´s All-Star team voting + the League´s scoring --> Vladimir Martinec and Peter´s linemate Marian Stastny (older brother). Furthermore, despite finishing decent 6th place, a Slovan´s goalie (Marcel Sakac) also finished ahead of Peter at 5th place, so Peter Stastny was considered still just a 3rd best player on his own team. I don´t think it was a particularly noteworthy season in an all-time sense, Stastny as 3rd-5th best CSSR forward in the season when Soviet hockey was arguably peaking.. USSR absolutely dominated the Czechoslovaks at the 1979 World Championship (11:1 and then 6:1 wins), and at this championship, P. Stastny scored 5 points in 8 games, 6th in his own team. In sum, I think Stastny was not a top 20 player in 1979 Europe yet.

On a brighter side, 1980 should definitely be considered as the one season in Peter Stastny´s resume that adds some decent value. First, he won the Golden Stick award for the best CSSR player of the season. That has to count for something even though it was a weaker season for the Czechoslovak hockey overall (disappointing 5th place finish at OG 1980, and also League´s quality of play generally declining).

The top 10 of 1980 GS voting:
1. Peter Šťastný 687
2. Milan Nový 681
3. Jaroslav Pouzar 477
4. Jiří Králík 471
5. Vladimír Martinec 442
6. Miroslav Fryčer 329
7. Vincent Lukáč 308
8. Karel Lang 245
9. Jiří Novák 198
10. Jindřich Kokrment 174

Stastny also featured in 1980 Izvestia trophy voting for the best player in Europe with decent 8th place finish (the highest place among CSSR players as it would be expected from the GS voting):

The top 15 of 1980 Izvestia voting:
1) Sergey Makarov 550 (137-62-27)
2) Boris Mikhaylov 384
3) Valery Vasilyev 175
4) Mats Näslund 166
5) Jukka Porvari 163
6) Vladislav Tretyak 143
7) Vladimir Krutov 114
8) Peter Šťastný 102
9) Pelle Lindbergh 81
10) Aleksandr Maltsev 77
11) Vladimír Martinec 70
12) Mikko Leinonen 54
13) Juergen Pettersson 39
14) Dan Soderstrom 30
15) Vladimir Golikov 22

This is also supported by the actual scoring numbers. The only time, pre-NHL P. Stastny ended up in top 10 tournament scoring, happened precisely at Lake Placid 1980, where he registered fairly impressive 14 points (7+7) in just 6 games, which was good enough for 2nd overall scoring finish (1 point behind his fellow teammate Milan Novy).

On a more positive side and not to sell Stastny short here, it´s true that Peter did have a couple of pretty good WHC showings given his age (WHC 76 - 5th in CSSR team with 12 points in 9 games, WHC 78 - 3rd in CSSR team with 11 points in 10 games). It´s also true that Stastny did impress Czech and Slovak observers with his skills very early on, as he entered the international competition when he was 19 y/o - little bit younger than most of other CSSR hockey stars from the 1960s up to 1980s. Finally, right before Stastny´s breakout season, Jan Starsi (CSSR assistant coach between 1974-1979) in 1979 had already proclaimed Peter as one of the most talented Czechoslovak players ever:

After WHC ´79, there was an interesting interview with Jan Starsi, assistant coach to Karel Gut at the National Team between 1974-1979 (Gut left a year later). Given that Starsi officially finished this tenure, interview was conducted in a balanced appraising mode. I picked just a three questions and answers that caught my attention the most:

Journalist: Which rookie during your tenure fit into the team the most quickly?
Starší: “Definitely Peter Šťastný in a year 1976, one of the most striking talents of our hockey. Already then, three years ago, he managed to increase the level of Nový´s line and to score goals.”

Journalist: 43 players have played during your tenure. Which of them have you perceived as a world class players?
Starší: “Goaltenders Holeček and Dzurilla, defensemen Pospíšil, Bubla and forwards Jiří Holík, Martinec, Hlinka, Ebermann, from younger generation Marián and Peter Šťastný.”

Journalist: Any player whom you gave a chance and left you disappointed?
Starší: “It was an honor for everyone whom we gave an opportunity to fight for a national jersey and their biggest goal was to play for Team Czechoslovakia. Of course not everybody has fully succeeded. For example I expected more from very talented Vincent Lukáč.”

Still, after all of this, I stand at my position, saying that Stastny had only one meaningful season before 1981, and that was the forementioned 1980. How many points could have Stastny scored in 1980?

In 1981, Stastny scored 109 points in 77 games, 6th overall scoring. In 1982, Stastny scored 139 points in 80 games, 3rd overall scoring. In 1983, Stastny scored 124 points in 75 games, 2nd overall scoring.... I think something between 90-99 points for Stastny, 1980´ edition, is a reasonable hypothesis. This would be 9th to 17th scoring range in NHL for that season.

I don´t think we can assume Stastny would have hit a 100 point mark in any season of his European pre-NHL career. Remember, there were still a bunch of Soviet forwards who were considered better even in 1980.

______________________END OF RE-POST_______________________

Just one more thought now to add to this as of now (2021-01-30):

I do think Šťastný would have been NHL player from 1976 onwards but without any recognition. Šťastný may have become NHL 1st liner in 1979 given how greatly his league team performed and that he finally cracked the top 10 players list of his domestic country by the end of the season.

Reading my post again, I'm not even sure I'd say Šťastný would hit - say - a top 15 scoring in 1980. I'd estimate more like 16th-25th finish or so. Šťastný did win the Golden Stick but I can't think of a weaker one in the whole Cold War era with perhaps just one exception (1988). First of all, Martinec had been a landslide winner until his injury at Lake Placid. Secondly, Šťastný won 687 points to 681 points of Milan Nový - basically a tie. Thirdly, Nový outscored Šťastný on every level (domestic, OG) + Nový's team (SONP Kladno) actually won the title in 1980.

You may now ask why didn't Nový then win the 1980 Golden Stick? Šťastný actually didn't win a single one of the 5 voting rounds during the season. He won it on the aggregate, i.e. cumulatively he got the most votes. I'm not sure if any other Czech or Slovak player ever won that award this way. Now that doesn't sound too well, but the Gól magazine, when it published the final result, actually approved the voting results writing Šťastný was the most consistent performer on every level who always chipped in a one goal or assist each game. On the contrary Milan Nový, according to the magazine, was surfing through hot and cold streaks all the time.

Šťastný deserves credit for the 1980 season. I'm not sure if the 1980 would boost his 7-season VsX but his 10-season VsX should definitely be adjusted slightly higher.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Here is a look at how the new available players performed in Best-on-Best tournaments.

Rod Langway
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 17 gp, 1 g, 3 a, 4 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 2 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Canada Cup 1981: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Canada Cup 1984: 1 gp, 0 g, 1 a, 1 pts

Accolades: Canada Cup All-Star team 1984

Pavel Datsyuk
Overall numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 29 gp, 6 g, 17 a, 23 pts
Knockout stage numbers in Best-on-Best tournaments: 10 gp, 1 g, 6 a, 7 pts

Knockout stage numbers broken down by tournament
Olympics 2002: 3 gp, 1 g, 2 a, 3 pts
World Cup 2004: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2006: 3 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2010: 1 gp, 0 g, 0 a, 0 pts
Olympics 2014: 2 gp, 0 g, 4 a, 4 pts

Accolades: -

As I mentioned in my earlier post Rod Langway's performances on the international stage has really impressed me. Obviously his numbers offensively are nothing that stands out but his defensive play very clearly did as evident by him making the All-Star team in the 1984 Canada Cup. So I would say that Langway has a impressive Best-on-Best resume even if he did not get to enjoy that much team success.

At first glance Pavel Datsyuk's numbers both overall and in the knockout stage look relatively strong. Regarding his knockout stage numbers it is however worth noting that Datsyuk scored 6 out of his 7 points in the bronze-medal game against Belarus in 2002 and the qualification playoffs game against Norway in 2014. So in the 8 knockout stage games against Canada, USA, Finland and the Czech Republic he only scored 1 point. With that in mind Datsyuk's Best-on-Best resume really leaves me rather unimpressed even if his overall numbers are relatively strong.

So how does the Best-on-Best resumes of Langway and Datsyuk measure up to the ones of the other available players? In my opinion Langway belongs close to the top of that list while Datsyuk probably lands somewhere between Savard/Vasiliev and Holecek/Stastny/Gilmour. So something like this.

Bure
Langway
Savard/Vasiliev
Datsyuk
Holecek/Stastny/Gilmour

This vote we also have two players (Bernie Parent and Ron Francis) who had their primes during the Best-on-Best tournaments era but never played at any of those tournaments. Ron Francis did play in exhibition games prior to the World Cup in 1996 but decided to pull out due to an injury.

Here are the numbers of the other available players again.

I was lucky enough to see two games in the 1984 Canada Cup round robin. Soviets vs. Czechs and USA vs. Canada. The Soviet/Czech game (3-0 Soviets) took about an hour less time. Very few icings or offsides, no scrums after the whistle. Not something North American fans were used to.

Anyway, even to the untrained eye Langway stood out in US/Canada game. Pretty sure he was one of the stars of the game in a 4-4 tie.

 

[DN28]

Now how to rank Jiří Holeček right now? First, I want to offer a projection of his career in a global league based on his actual year-to-year results.

BEGINNINGS:
Holeček started late in his teens with hockey goaltending and as such he was underdeveloped and missed the draft for the Dukla Jihlava team in 1963 when he was 19. Holeček would obviously miss the NHL entry draft or any similar type of talent-picking event.

Holeček did manage to raise his level quickly though when he played the back-up goalie for the CSSR at 1966 and 1967 WHCs (both seasons Holeček had a high league SV% too). I think this would be the equivalent a Euro goalie today who goes undrafted but spends the next years dominating his domestic league and raising his awareness in the eyes of NHL scouts at the WHC tournaments. Think of Pavel Francouz today or Viktor Fasth 10 years ago. I'd assume Holeček would take the offer after 1967 season and go to the NHL.

Real-life Holeček struggled in 1968 and 1969 seasons. He wasn't a part of National team, his recognition from the Czech press was non-existent and his stats dipped. Translating this to our projection, this would be a story of a European goalie who then finds himself in a tough spot in much more difficult playing environment. Holeček wouldn't sniff to NHL and he would spend 2 seasons fully adjusting to North American skaters and hockey in the AHL.

Real-life Holeček noticeably improved in 1970. He had a strong league season (0.919 - 2nd best in the League, well behind Dzurilla's 0.935, but also well above the rest of goalies who struggled to get above 0.900 mark). Holeček was the leader of his team according to press and he finished 12th in GS voting. He did not however play at the WHC yet, and Dzurilla, Konovalenko and Holmqvist were all deemed better Euro goalies at this point... I think it's reasonable to assume Holeček here would finally enter the NHL and as the season progresses, he would receive more playing time and platoon with the other goalie. But definitely not any all-star recognition yet.

PRIME:
There was not a better goalie in Europe in 1971 than Holeček. He posted 0.947 SV% plus winning the best goalie award and all-star team nod at the WHC. Holeček played greatly in other international games but he had fairly average league (0.900, 6th best I think). So Holeček was 5th Czech player in GS voting... In NHL, Plante, Esposito, Dryden and Giacomin seem to separate themselves from the rest. I'd take these four Gs and then Holeček after them. Say a 5th best goalie in 1971.

I personally have Vlado Dzurilla as the better Euro goalie than Holeček in 1972. Yes, Holeček delivered again at the WHC when Czechs won the gold, Holeček was the all-star and a critical piece to the win over Soviets. But he disappointed in the Olympics where he lost the starting position. Holeček had strong domestic season with 0.925 but was edged out by Dzurilla's even more outstanding 0.931. Dzurilla's league run + his solid OG and then competent backing-up at the WHC brought him the 3rd place finish in GS voting in one of the strongest seasons ever for the Czechoslovak hockey. Holeček was 5th... In NHL, Dryden and Esposito separated from the rest, I also like Worsley' and Cheevers's reg. season and playoffs combined. I'd have Dzurilla probably on the 4th place on Worsley and Cheevers level, and Holeček a tier lower somewhere around 6th behind 5 goalies mentioned and around Villemure and Parent. Say a 6th best goalie in 1972.

I'm pretty sure Holeček was the best goalie in Europe in 1973 but this season was not without its issues. Holeček had statistically weakest domestic season - 0.895 and 10th overall. However, I happened to read all the game reports from this season. Holeček spent the latter part of the season behind the team whose defense was in the state of complete disarray, to the point where forwards of Kosice had to play in defense. 4 of 6 Holecek´s d-men were unable to play at one time. Holeček faced the most PP by far out of every other goalie. On the other hand, Holeček's overall play did decrease in the 2nd half of season post his December injury, there were games where Holeček was pulled out early after bad goals.. At the WHC, Holeček again delivered. He won best goalie award and all-star team and really was just outstanding throughout the championship. The reports, quotes of coaches.. it's all there, pure dominance. Holeček ended up 5th in GS voting.. Tretiak had good SS, good WHC and was 4th in SPOTY but I'd still take Holeček here even if Tretiak should be right behind... Dryden looks like a clear-cut best goalie in 1973 NHL, I also like Espo despite his below-average PO, after that Cesare Maniago had his career year with SV% well above the average in RS and PO and minor AST voting support, Villemure was 3rd all-star G with also above average PO stats. I see Holeček somewhere in this mix of 4 NHL goalies and Tretiak. Holeček had his great WHC performance but also weakest league season in his prime. Say a 5th best goalie in 1973.

PEAK:
Holeček steps up his game in 1974. He had a legendary league season: started to play for Sparta Prague and dragged the team that had been finishing near the bottom for 3 previous seasons to the overall 2nd place (of 12 teams). Holeček posted 0.935 in a season where the 2nd G had 0.913 and the league average was probably below 0.900. He famously started the season with 3 shutouts in a row and won the his one and only Golden Stick at the end of the season. Holeček played solid but didn't win any award at the WHC and posted 0.908 (well below his usual >0.930) only because he played entire championship through abs injury... Tretiak was strong and reliable as he usually was but I'd lean toward Holeček here again... In the NHL, Bernie Parent had one of the greatest goalie seasons ever. Normally, I'd maybe say Holeček 1st but can't see him outcompeting peak Parent. Esposito was 2nd best NHL netminder with great RS and average PO. I think I'd have Holeček 3rd only because of that weakish WHC caused by injury - behind Parent and Espo, but right above Tretiak. Say a 3rd best goalie in 1974.

Holeček leads the league in SV%, leads the WHC in SV%, won the best goalie award of the championship. He finished 2nd in GS voting. Not much else to say here other than Holeček in this and previous season would have been just as good of a choice for the best player in Europe as any.. Tretiak was 1st in SPOTY just like he was in 1974 and 1976 but we've talked about these Tretiak's MVP wins in detail in the past. Tretiak played great but his high voting support in SPOTY was heavily influenced by insufficient quality of other Soviet goalies amongst them Tretiak looked like a giant. Holeček was IMO better always between 71-78 (stats, awards, game reports and head-to-head results) but the real peak of Tretiak occured in the early 1980s anyway. Having said that, I'd have Tretiak just a spot or two below Holeček... In NHL, this was Parent's 2nd peak season. Holeček though would have been a clear-cut and strong 2nd best goalie in 1975.

Holeček himself would say that his 1976 season was his best. His international success and fame reached its upper limit. His heroism at the OG was legendary (playing through flu and half-blind, yet finishing with leading 0.934), his Olympic performance in Innsbruck forced Bobby Hull to pull his jaw back from the floor. After that, Czechs won the WHC without any loss, Holeček posted 0.943. He was 2nd in GS just behind Martinec again. The only minor issue was the league where now old veteran Vlado Dzurilla came back from the afterlife and posted a tiny bit better numbers and had probably slightly better league season overall given his team situation... Anyway, this was the 3rd consecutive peak season of Holeček and arguably his best one. In NHL though, Ken Dryden had his single best season probably in 1976, right? Correct me if I'm wrong, but Dryden had a career-high GSAA of 60.66, ridiculous all-time high number and well above the rest. Dryden was 1st all-star, 4th in Hart voting and great PO winning the Cup. I think Holeček's 1976 season would have been the easy Vezina in most years but I cannot see him over peak Dryden. Say a 2nd best goalie in 1976.

DOWN-SEASON:
Holeček braked in 1977. He lost his starting position to Dzurilla at both Canada Cup and WHC. Such a shame that he couldn't maintain his form longer. His CC performance was bad and his WHC was subpar too. Czechs finished 2nd at CC and they also defended their previous championship title by winning the gold at WHC. And they did that without Holeček's contributions. Holeček's league season was OK but below his peak seasons as well (3rd in league SV% with 0.916). 8th in GS voting.. It was a strange and weaker season for the Euro goaltending as a whole. Tretiak regressed a bit as well. Dzurilla performed internationally but slowed down a bit in the league. Göran Högosta had his career year though... Holeček was certainly not the best Euro goalie, in fact he was not even the best CSSR goalkeeper but he still had his league play and his GS voting decent enough for me to estimate that he'd have been NHL starter with average RS stats and with minor all-star voting support. Say a 10th best goalie.

THE HAPPY-END:
Great bounceback season by Holeček in 1978. He intended to retire from international competition but he was talked into giving himself and the rest of CSSR team a second chance by Karel Gut. Holeček rewarded Gut's confidence entirely. His performance - domestic and international - came back to his 74-76 level. His team (Sparta Praha) had a great run in the league, flirting with the 1st spot throughout the season. This Sparta version was a classic high-risk, agressive offensively minded team which took their chances. Their game stood on Holeček's ability to kill penalties and breakaways. Holeček at the WHC received Directoriate best goalie award and once again won the media all-star voting by an overwhelming majority. Czechs were narrowly beaten by the Soviets in the last game, they lost literally by a one goal, although they allowed about one third less goals than Soviets in the tournament IIRC..

Holeček had the stats, he finished 2nd in 1978 GS voting, he was also the all-star in that Izvestia Cup tournament mid-season ("mini-WHC"), for once Holeček also excelled against Canadian team with NHLers (5:0 and 3:2 wins at the championship) and he also enjoyed the media fame again - one of the headlines of special WHC '78 issue of Československý sport was entitled "IT WAS HOLEČEK´S CHAMPIONSHIP". Overall, Holeček was just as good of an answer to the question of who's the best player in Europe as anyone else. Hlinka, Mikhailov and Holeček is the tier 1 of Euro players of the 1978 in terms of actual performance and results domestic and international.

Looking at the NHL, Dryden was the best G there but I don't think his 1978 was as special as his 1976. I do think European goaltending must have produced at least one season where it would trump the NA goaltending in terms of 1970s decade. Holeček's 1974, 1975, 1976 and 1978 are your best options for it but when considering the actual strength of Parent's two years and Dryden's 76, I think this last season of Holeček is in fact the most likely to be All-Star / Vezina caliber season. 1st best goalie in the world in 1978.

SUMMARY OF MY HOLEČEK PROJECTION:
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: 5th best goalie
1972: 6th best goalie
1973: 5th best goalie
1974: 3rd best goalie
1975: 2nd best goalie
1976: 2nd best goalie
1977: 10th best goalie
1978: 1st best goalie

 

[DN28]

Re: Holeček vs. Vasiliev debate

Just like I've said last week, Holeček in his best form was in my opinion more impactful and more highly regarded player than Vasiliev at his peak. But Vasiliev's prime lasted longer. I think it shows from my "projections" that Vasiliev had that one great season (1979) when he was voted 2nd best European player in the inaugural Izvestia trophy voting. Outside of this one year, I don't see Vasiliev ever being discussed on the same level as Kharlamov, Maltsev, Mikhailov, Martinec and couple others. Holeček's 74, 75, 76 and 78 are the same caliber as Vasiliev's 79 so high-end quality of play goes to the goaltender.

But Vasiliev was roughly 15-season NHL caliber player (in my opinion) while Holeček only for 9 seasons by my estimate. I fully agree with what Batis said earlier that Vasiliev's prime lasted for 10 seasons (73-82) with 8 seasons of noteworthy performances or results versus Holeček's prime lasted for 8 seasons with 7 seasons of noteworthy performances, results etc.

I prefer Vasiliev's length of prime and length of career over Holeček's peak. I'd rather have Vasiliev on the list now also because he compares well to the rest of available d-men. I think Holeček compares favorably to Parent but not to Bower and Worters who needs to be added with Vasiliev this vote.

Anyway, if some of you find this interesting to simply write down chronologically these careers as me, this might help you:

Jiří Holeček
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: 5th best goalie
1972: 6th best goalie
1973: 5th best goalie
1974: 3rd best goalie
1975: 2nd best goalie
1976: 2nd best goalie
1977: 10th best goalie
1978: 1st best goalie

vs.

Valeri Vasiliev
1970: Irregular NHL player
1971: Irregular NHL player
1972: Full-time regular NHL player
1973: 6th best d-man
1974: 4th best d-man
1975: 4th best d-man
1976: 13th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1977: 6th best d-man
1978: 12th best d-man with fringe Norris voting support
1979: 1st best d-man
1980: 4th best d-man
1981: 4th best d-man
1982: 6th best d-man
1983: Full-time regular NHL player
1984: Full-time regular NHL player

 

[tarheelhockey]

Great stuff @DN28

thanks for posting

 

[DN28]

I think it's time for Valeri Vasiliev to go on our list. Just to remind everyone the 5 best seasons of his career:

Vasiliev in 1974 was voted 3rd best Soviet player - behind Tretiak and Mikhailov, ahead of guys like prime Kharlamov, Yakushev, Maltsev or Petrov. Soviet "MVP" was around since 1968 and this was the first time any Soviet d-man received non-negligible amount of votes. At WHC, Vasiliev added another all-star nod. He improved his offensive play according to his league record: apparently Valeri scored 15 points from 31 games, while his offensive output in all of his earlier seasons was almost non-existent (3-7 points in 35-42 games...).

Next Vasiliev's significant season (1975) was initiated by the WHA Summit Series. Vasiliev scored 4 points and only J-C Tremblay was more productive among d-men. WHC '75 was another quality showing as Valeri comfortably wins the media vote for defensemen with 69 votes out of 92 ballots. Vasiliev finishes 6th in 1975 'Soviet Player of the Year' voting (SPOTY). For the third time in a row now, Vasiliev is voted as best Soviet d-man and as the best Dynamo Moscow player too.

The best season of Vasiliev´s career was 1979. No one can argue that there was some better d-man in Europe. At the end of the season, the Soviet hockey federation and the newspaper Izvestia decided to conduct a poll to determine the best hockey player in Europe, so called 'Izvestia Golden Stick' for the 1st time, and Vasiliev was voted as 2nd best player only behind Mikhailov, ahead of Kharlamov, Makarov, Tretiak, Martinec.. In sheer numbers, you can hardly find a more representative poll - 578 voters participated, mostly writers plus various members of different national hockey federations. This was the season of the Challenge Cup - a 3-game series which Soviets famously won against the NHL All-Stars. A stay-at-home defenseman Vasiliev actually became the most productive d-man of the series, scoring 3 assists in 3 games (also led all skaters in assists). 1979 is generally regarded as one of the absolute highs of the Soviet hockey. Red machine absolutely decimated each opponent at the WHC and Valeri became the Directoriate's choice for best d-man and also appeared on the WHC all-star team. Soviets with Vasiliev as their #1 ran over the other teams like a knife through butter through the whole season.

Tough to "sell" the 1980 given the outcome of the Olympics but Vasiliev individually continued with strong performance. He remained a, more or less, unquestionable top d-man of Europe. Vasiliev finished 5th in SPOTY voting as the only Russian D who received meaningful voting support. He fared even better in Izvestia voting, as he was voted 3rd, only behind a pair of RWers Makarov and Mikhailov. No other d-man ended up in the top 10 of this Izvestia voting.

For the following 1981 season, Vasiliev was promoted as the new USSR captain. It may not look like a big deal given that Valeri's captaincy lasted only 2 seasons, but it's remarkable that Viktor Tikhonov would agree with a non-CSKA player to captain the National team. Really shows the trust that Vasiliev earned among Soviet hockey players and coaches after decade of his service. Vasiliev was voted into the WHC '81 All-Star team once more (despite not scoring a single point in the championship), and this time together with Larry Robinson. Both of them got equal amount of media votes (37 ballots). Vasiliev was for third time in a row voted as the best Soviet D - 6th in SPOTY while young Kasatonov was 8th, and young Fetisov didn't get any votes yet. Vasiliev also ended up 8th best Euro player according to Izvestia voting.
_____________________________

Now to bring back the discussion to Bill Quackenbush, some good questions were raised about his PO record.

• Young Quackenbush didn't play yet in 1943 SC playoffs when Detroit won. Next Detroit's cup and their dynasty occured in 1950 just after Quackenbush got traded.
• Quackenbush's 1948 and 1949 Norris-equivalent reg. seasons were followed by Detroit's clear 0-4 loss to Leafs in the finals in both of these match-ups.
• Detroit finished 2nd in 1944 and lost 1-4 in the semifinals to 4th-seeded Blackhawks.
• Detroit finished 2nd in 1945 and lost 3-4 in the finals to 3rd-seeded Leafs.
• Bruins hadn't missed SC playoffs 5 seasons in a row, then Quackenbush arrived in 1950 and the Bruins finished 5th and thus out of the play-off race.
• Quackenbush's individual play-off scoring plummeted compared to his reg. season scoring.

We still don't exactly know how Quack played individually in those losing PO series but this is too much of a smoke in the air suggesting there was a whole village burning to the ground.

I appreciate the effort of @tarheelhockey and of couple others to look into the newspapers and find out more information. I hoped someone would find time to do that however.. Turned out apparently that there isn't much to find. If we had quotes on the table like "Quackenbush did everything he could to prevent the loss," or a "The upset can't be blamed on Quackenbush who was the sole bright spot on the Wings roster", then that would mean a completely different thing. But this is not the case.

Quackenbush has the best regular season record among d-men left but based on the discussion and Quack's PO results I'm moving him below Vasiliev who now looks to me like the best d-man available this round.

 

[blogofmike]

Quackenbush has the best regular season record among d-men left but based on the discussion and Quack's PO results I'm moving him below Vasiliev who now looks to me like the best d-man available this round.

There is still Serge Savard.

8 Cups including a 1969 Conn Smythe run, and 4 in a row as the defensive guy in the Big Three.

An injured leg limited him to 5 games in the Summit Series. Canada was 4-0-1 with Savard in the lineup in the 1972 Summit against the Soviets. Savard looked okay, but I wouldn't give him all the credit that the team record suggests.

Chances are stats show he immediately improved the Jets GA numbers, given the fact that he was called out of retirement after a 15-2 loss.

 

[MXD]

• Bruins hadn't missed SC playoffs 5 seasons in a row, then Quackenbush arrived in 1950 and the Bruins finished 5th and thus out of the play-off race.

- Boston went from (albeit post-prime) Frank Brimsek to Jack Gelineau. Even if Brimsek was post-prime, and even if Gelineau won the Calder for his efforts, that's a non-insignificant drop in goaltending level.
- Boston also went for a new coach who wouldn't coach a single game past 1950.

(Just so it's clear : I'm mostly contextualizing the statement. Not making a case for or against Quackenbush)

 

[MXD]

Voted. I suppose I could say I was unimpressed by the forwards : the five "cuts" are forwards (though one of them was a last minute call), and only one made what I'd call the Top-8.

 

[DN28]

There is still Serge Savard.

8 Cups including a 1969 Conn Smythe run, and 4 in a row as the defensive guy in the Big Three.

An injured leg limited him to 5 games in the Summit Series. Canada was 4-0-1 with Savard in the lineup in the 1972 Summit against the Soviets. Savard looked okay, but I wouldn't give him all the credit that the team record suggests.

Chances are stats show he immediately improved the Jets GA numbers, given the fact that he was called out of retirement after a 15-2 loss.

Savard's Norris record is bad.

No votes in 1968 when 14 other d-men did.
No votes in 1969 when 13 other d-men did.
No votes in 1970 when 12 other d-men did.
No votes in 1971 when 14 other d-men did.
No votes in 1972 when 11 other d-men did.

27-year old Savard finally first time in his career receives some Norris votes in 1973. He's 6th (and 3rd best among just MTL defensemen).

One single vote obtained in 1974 makes him mathematically 12th best D.

5th in 1975.
5th in 1976.
5th in 1977 (and 3rd best just among MTL defensemen).

Savard was 8th in 1978 with 4 points out of 486 (again behind Lapointe and Robinson).

4th in 1979.

No votes in 1980 when 18 other d-men did.
No votes in 1981 when 23 other d-men did.
No votes in 1982 when 16 other d-men did.
No votes in 1983 when 12 other d-men did.

TWO TAKEAWAYS:
In his NHL career Savard had more seasons where he didn't get a one measly throw-away Norris vote than seasons with some level of voting support. There were hundreds of voters, hundreds of points to get and Savard couldn't get even one.

At no point was Savard ever considered the best d-man on his own team... let alone in his league, in his country etc.

(...)

I get that Savard was a stay-at-home d-man whose qualities were not easy to immediately spot on. I get that he was a fine play-off performer and a valuable member of the dynasty... But we need to acknowledge that without these attributes, Savard isn't even a top 200 player.

It's early for Savard.

 

[MXD]

I get that Savard was a stay-at-home d-man whose qualities were not easy to immediately spot on. I get that he was a fine play-off performer and a valuable member of the dynasty... But we need to acknowledge that without these attributes, Savard isn't even a top 200 player.

With regards.... I don't think anyone is seriously questionning this (when taking his Norris support at face value, I mean).

The same way, I don't know, Stastny isn't a Top-1000 player if his offense is akin to, say, Mike Ridley.

Also keep in mind that this is a very obvious case of Norris support being suppressed due to contextual factors. He wasn't in a Langway situation.

 

[ted2019]

Voted. I suppose I could say I was unimpressed by the forwards : the five "cuts" are forwards (though one of them was a last minute call), and only one made what I'd call the Top-8.

My top 8 were the following by position:
Goalie: 2
Defense: 4
Forwards: 2

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There is still Serge Savard.

8 Cups including a 1969 Conn Smythe run, and 4 in a row as the defensive guy in the Big Three.

An injured leg limited him to 5 games in the Summit Series. Canada was 4-0-1 with Savard in the lineup in the 1972 Summit against the Soviets. Savard looked okay, but I wouldn't give him all the credit that the team record suggests.

Chances are stats show he immediately improved the Jets GA numbers, given the fact that he was called out of retirement after a 15-2 loss.

And there is still Langway.