Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 19

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,157
7,292
Regina, SK
Procedure
  • You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
  • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
  • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to @seventieslord
  • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
  • The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters
  • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
  • Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines
  • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
  • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
  • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
  • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules
  • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
  • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
  • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, May 21st at midnight and continue through Sunday, May 23rd at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, May 24th.


Vote 9 Candidates
  • Alexander Yakushev
  • Brendan Shanahan
  • Chuck Rayner
  • Curtis Joseph
  • Daniel Alfredsson
  • Harry "Hap" Holmes
  • Harry Lumley
  • John LeClair
  • Lester Patrick
  • Lorne "Gump" Worsley
  • Patrik Elias
  • Roy Conacher
  • Vyacheslav Starshinov
  • Yvan Cournoyer
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,257
138,786
Bojangles Parking Lot
Five (real) goalies here. Should be a good round to go deep on those guys. Rayner/Lumley/Worters is an interesting trio to hold up against each other.

On that note, we have kind of ignored Holmes for a couple of rounds. Probably time to bring him back into focus.

Starshinov/Yakushev makes an obvious and interesting comparision.

Should we be giving Cournoyer more consideration? He got a hard "no" from several voters when he showed up, and was in a distant last place on the most recent vote. Is he really that far behind the rest of this pack?
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
From Theokritos Bio:

VYACHESLAV STARSHINOV
(C, *1940)

Soviet senior league:
1957-1972 (plus comebacks in 1974-75 and 1978-79).
Soviet national team:
1961 WCh, 1963 WCh, 1964 Olympics, 1965 WCh, 1966 WCh, 1967 WCh, 1968 Olympics, 1969 WCh, 1970 WCh, 1971 WCh.


Soviet honours:
1958-59: top 20 forward
1959-60: top 16 forward
1960-61: top 19 forward
1961-62: top 20 forward
1962-63: top 20 forward, All-star
1963-64: #1 center, All-star
1964-65: #1 center, All-star
1965-66: #1 center, All-star
1966-67: #1 center, All-star
1967-68: #1 center, All-star, 2nd in Best Player voting
1968-69: #1 center, All-star, 3rd in Best Player voting
1969-70: top 7 center, All-star, 3rd in Best Player voting
1970-71: top 7 center, 9th in Best Player voting


International honours:
1965 WCH Best Forward.

Anatoly Tarasov (1987): "He was quiet, with massive shoulders - reserved and a bit clumsy - but Vyacheslav changed when he took the ice, became angry and ruthless – both to his opponents and to himself. He was filled with an unbending will to win, not only in games, but also in practices. In battles in front of the opposing goal, he was unstoppable. The Canadians always believed that they could closely 'check' opposing forwards with their own, and did not wish to admit that they could do nothing with Starshinov. With the sturdiness of a tree trunk, strong on his skates, Vyacheslav never hid his intentions – moved straight towards the goal and challenged his opponents to stop him. The effect of this directness on defenders was like that of a boa constrictor on a rabbit. (...) This outstanding player possessed an incredible amount of strength, and an unshakable desire to achieve glory for himself and his team. Starshinov's dependability would be the envy of even the great masters of hockey - he played practically without injury, without missing a game, from his youth to the end of his storied career."

Note: I used the existing translation provided by Sturminator.
In life, the hero - wide in the shoulders and calm, outwardly a little clumsy, on the ice Vyacheslav transformed. He became angry, merciless - and to the opponent and to himself, amazed by the i lawful strength, the desire to be the first in everything. And not only in matches, but also in training. In battles in front of the opponent's gate was unstoppable. The Canadians seemed to know how to keep the otherers' forwards close to their "piglet" and couldn't help them. With an iron grip of the club, firmly standing on the feet of Vyacheslav never hid his intentions - threw the opponent an open challenge and rushed to the goal in a straight line. And with this directness acted on the defenders, as a boa constrictor on a rabbit. (...) This outstanding player had an extraordinary reserve of strength in strength, in pressure, in a relentless desire to achieve what he wanted and glorify himself and the team. And the stability of Starshinov could be envied by the most eminent masters - he played almost without disruptions. Both in his youth and towards the end of his faithful service to hockey.
Nikolay Sologubov: "Somewhat inferior to Boris Mayorov in regards to flashy individual skills (but only really in the early days) was Vyacheslav Starshinov, a player with extraordinary stamina and capacity for work and great tactical prowess. Starshinov is incredibly bold and his strong shot has earned him the reputation of being one of the most productive forwards in our hockey."
Somewhat inferior to Boris Mayorov (however, except at first) in the brilliance of individual skill Vyacheslav Starshinov, hockey player of amazing efficiency, endurance and great tactical skill. The Chiefs were infinitely brave, and the strongest throws earned him the glory of one of the most effective forwards of our hockey.

Vadim Krivenko, Novosti Press Agency (1967):

"The most fearless chap on the [national] squad, possesses tremendous stamina, operates efficiently everywhere on the ice."

Anatoly Tarasov (1971): "Starshinov is a passionate player with a great range of activity. He has the hug of a bear, his physical strength would be enough for three. Now, if you consider his strength it would seem as if he didn't even need much technical skills on top of it, but Starshinov is actually a very skilled player, although he doesn't catch one's eye immediately. His talent is not apparent right away, you need to watch him in action to recognize it. (...) Vyacheslav possesses the highest level of technical skills: His handling of the puck is technically excellent, he has a wide vision, a great pass and a phenomenally strong and accurate shot that he makes use of from almost anywhere. He has a good awareness of the rink and makes the best decision in the most difficult and dramatic situation. But on top of it he still maintains his trump card: his extraordinary strength and self-confidence. He reminds me of a cruiser, steadily cutting its way through the waves of the sea. (...) Again, Vyacheslav's technique is very peculiar. Sometimes I wonder how he manages to get past one opponent after the other. He doesn't use any distinguished dekes. And yet, when you try to stop him, you recognize he has a firm grip on the puck, even though it doesn't look like anything you're used to."

Sturminator.
These qualities of Starshinov led us, the coaches of the national team, to the idea that Vyacheslav's role should be expanded. In Spartak in the final phase of the attack, he acted from a long-distance position, with insurance, we offered him to go to the finish, to create obstacles to the goalkeeper. And this manner, combined with sudden and slashing throws-strikes of the slings unusual made Starshinov a thunderstorm for the goalkeepers.
David Bauer (1968): "Both [scil. the Soviets and the NHLers] have their own qualities. It would be difficult for the players to play on the team of the opponent. In my opinion the only Soviet players who wouldn't be at loss [when switching to an NHL team] would be Firsov and Starshinov."

Everyone has their good qualities. It would be hard for hockey players to play in the opposing team. In my opinion, only Fursov and the Elders would not be confused from the Soviet hockey players.


Physical game:

Anatoly Tarasov (1971): "The passion that distinguished Starshinov from all of his peers (and not only among the Soviets) over many years is his passion for the physical game. He loved to get involved in the battle, reveal all of his gigantic strength and have a fight within the boundary of the rules. (...) The opponents obstructed him, tortured him and pushed him away from the goal, but he didn't back down. He didn't wait for the opponent to give him a quarter, what he desired was to score a goal and he didn't retreat from that target. In this regard Starshinov compares favourably with Almetov, although Almetov had a clear advantage over him when it came to elegance, finesse and surprising ideas. Starshinov didn't hide what he was on to, but he acted with such power and skill that no counter-measure could save the opponent."

Sturminator once again.
Vyacheslav loved difficult and voluminous training. I do not remember that the Elders ever complained about the excessive severity or complexity of the loads. And in the games - in basketball according to hockey rules, in football, which we gave hockey players in the classes of "sweet" Vyacheslav almost had no equal. We, the coaches, taught others by his example.
Boris Mayorov (1971): "Slava is never satisfied with his own performance and when a game really doesn't go well, he is capable of stepping up. He's always at his best when it's crunch time."

Glory is always dissatisfied with his game. And when the game really does not go, knows how to be above the circumstances. And for the decisive tournament, everyone is ready better than anyone else...
Arkady Chernyshov: "He's a courageous and fearless player. When he took a puck to the head and had his cheek cut open at the 1969 World Championship in Stockholm, the doctors told him not to play, but he still begged us coaches to let him on the ice. And he played great when it mattered most. And [in 1967] at the Vienna World Championship? Our players were having a hard time playing against Canadian defenceman Carl Brewer and Slava asked Tarasov and me to let him play against Brewer. He didn't know what the outcome of their duel would be, but in order to stand up for his team he was ready to take the challenge."

Brave and courageous hockey player. When in 1969 in Stockholm he had his cheek cut with a puck and doctors banned him from playing, he still begged us, the coaches, to let him out on the ice. And at a critical moment played great. And in Vienna? Canadian defender Carl Brover was very good at our players. And as Slava asked me and Tarasov to allow him to "play" against Brewer. He did not know how their fight would end, but was eager to stand up for the team, consciously took risks.
Anatoli Firsov (1968): "Slava has work ethic and courage in spades. In difficult times he has more than once infected us with his enthusiam."

Glory's hard work and courage at least spare. In difficult moments, he repeatedly courted us with his enthusiasm.​
Andrei Starostin: "I remember Slava enduring defeats, sometimes cruel and crushing defeats. But I don't remember him ever surrendering."
I remember Glory suffering defeats, sometimes defeats cruel, crushing. But I'll give my a pardon to the one who surrendered.​
Temperament and discipline:

Anatoly Tarasov (1968): "Sometimes they say that Starshinov is quite an undisciplined player. That is both right and wrong. When playing for his club team, it is true that Starshinov sometimes takes a quaint attitude towards the rules and can interpret them quite freely. In fact, he simply plays rough. But when he plays for the USSR National team, Starshinov transforms into an absolutely different man. He knows how high the requirements are, and he knows the price the team will have to pay if he is penalized. That is why he plays a clean game, without losing control of himself, without acting up. Therefore, it is not surprising that in all the games of the 1965 World Hockey Championship he had only one two-minute penalty."

Note: I used the existing English translation from "Road to Olympus" (1969), but made some corrections.
Sometimes they say and write that the Elders are a completely undisciplined player. That's not true. Indeed, playing in the club team, the Elders sometimes allows himself too freely to interpret the existing rules, sometimes simply rude. But the same Elders, playing for the national team of the country, is completely transformed. There he is charged high, he knows the price of removal and therefore acts on the field correctly, without losing control over himself. It is not surprising that during the draw of the World Cup of Hockey in 1965, he was only once removed from the field for two minutes, as they say, "on his own initiative".
Boris Mayorov (1970): "Starshinov was always a much more relaxed guy than we [scil. the Mayorov brothers] were. Perhaps you could even classify him as phlegmatic. It's not that he was indifferent to the referees' sanctions or remained silent. But while the rest of us yelled so that the entire arena could hear us, he only mumbled to himself and no-one could make out whether he was bad-mouthing the referees or he was dissatisfied with himself or he was complaining about the quarrelsome temper of us, his linemates. Yet the reputation of the whole trio cast its shadow on Starshinov too and he also became subject to the sermons of the press and the Sports Technical Commission."

In fact, the Elders have always been a much calmer man than we are. It can even, perhaps, be classified as phlegmatic. Not that he was indifferent to the referee's "repression" or silent on the court, but such a manner: all that we shouted at the whole stadium, he tambourine under his nose, and no one could make out whether he really scolds the judges, whether he is dissatisfied with himself, or condemns for the absurd temper of us, his partners. And yet the shadow of the whole trio with its reputation fell on Starshinov, and he at least we had to listen to the lectures of the press and members of the sports and technical commission.​
In the fall of 1968, Starshinov was voted captain of the Soviet national team by the players.

Boris Mayorov: "On the ice he's able to move mountains and perform miracles, but to say the right words at the right time is not his part. He isn't good at encouraging others."
In my ears is still the monotonous voice of Slavka Starshinov, the captain of the national team. He is able to turn mountains and perform on the site any miracle, but to say at the right moment the right words - it is not his part. He can't encourage others.​
 
Last edited:

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
Saddened that Harry Cameron is still ineligible. Still unsure Karlsson is any better. He is paying way too much for his so-called "uncoachability", when in fact the man was dominant for a long time and excelled as a playoff performer leading to multiple SCs. I find it funny that Sundin is in, while Cameron is nowhere to be seen. Where are the Toronto fans to support their original superstar?

Cournoyer is an easy #1 at this point. His big games resume is towering over the field. I also like Yakushev. Given last round's results, I'm not holding my breathe that the former will make the list though.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: vadim sharifijanov

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
Yvan Cournoyer peaked between the dynasties, so he was at his best in the island SCs of 1971 and 1973.

MTL playoffs scorers from '71-73.

NHL Stats

Smythe winner in '73, plus good performances in the '72 Summit Series.

He was also 2nd AST in those three years, while missing some games each season.

#12 Jersey retired by Montreal along with Dickie Moore's.

His resume gets abstracted in the "10 cups in 16 seasons" but his peak was early-1970's ; his contributions to the dynasties were not in his prime.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
VsX summary (1927-2020)

Player 1st 2nd 3rd 4th 5th 6th 7th 8th 9th 10th 7 YEAR 10 YEAR
Roy Conacher 101.9 86.4 85.7 84.1 81.7 81.2 75.8 69.8 68.5 5.8 85.2 74.1
Daniel Alfredsson 97.2 92.0 84.0 78.9 76.3 75.0 72.9 67.3 65.1 65.1 82.3 77.4
John LeClair 95.6 89.0 84.1 81.9 80.8 77.1 63.2 56.7 48.1 35.8 81.7 71.2
Brendan Shanahan 85.0 83.3 83.0 80.7 79.2 76.4 65.4 65.0 63.5 62.6 79.0 74.4
Patrik Elias 100.0 93.1 80.4 76.6 70.9 67.8 63.2 62.6 60.9 60.5 78.9 73.6
Yvan Cournoyer 81.3 81.1 80.2 76.1 76.0 73.3 71.4 61.2 57.1 57.1 77.1 71.5
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
Hart trophy (minimum 5% threshold)

Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
Harry Lumley 1 11 3
Chuck Rayner1 12
Gump Worsley 1 12
John LeClair 112
Roy Conacher 1 1
Curtis Joseph 1 1
Daniel Alfredsson 1 1
Patrik Elias 1 1
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
  • Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never got a non-trivial number of votes - Cournoyer, Shanahan
  • Players never eligible for the Hart - Holmes (effectively - just eligible for the Hart the last two years of his career), Patrick, Starshinov, Yakushev
 
Last edited:

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,938
VYACHESLAV STARSHINOV (C, *1940)

Soviet senior league:
1957-1972 (plus comebacks in 1974-75 and 1978-79).
Soviet national team:
1961 WCh, 1963 WCh, 1964 Olympics, 1965 WCh, 1966 WCh, 1967 WCh, 1968 Olympics, 1969 WCh, 1970 WCh, 1971 WCh.


Soviet honours:
1958-59: top 20 forward
1959-60: top 16 forward
1960-61: top 19 forward
1961-62: top 20 forward
1962-63: top 20 forward, All-star
1963-64: #1 center, All-star
1964-65: #1 center, All-star
1965-66: #1 center, All-star
1966-67: #1 center, All-star
1967-68: #1 center, All-star, 2nd in Best Player voting
1968-69: #1 center, All-star, 3rd in Best Player voting
1969-70: top 7 center, All-star, 3rd in Best Player voting
1970-71: top 7 center, 9th in Best Player voting


International honours:
1965 WCH Best Forward.

Anatoly Tarasov (1987): "He was quiet, with massive shoulders - reserved and a bit clumsy - but Vyacheslav changed when he took the ice, became angry and ruthless – both to his opponents and to himself. He was filled with an unbending will to win, not only in games, but also in practices. In battles in front of the opposing goal, he was unstoppable. The Canadians always believed that they could closely 'check' opposing forwards with their own, and did not wish to admit that they could do nothing with Starshinov. With the sturdiness of a tree trunk, strong on his skates, Vyacheslav never hid his intentions – moved straight towards the goal and challenged his opponents to stop him. The effect of this directness on defenders was like that of a boa constrictor on a rabbit. (...) This outstanding player possessed an incredible amount of strength, and an unshakable desire to achieve glory for himself and his team. Starshinov's dependability would be the envy of even the great masters of hockey - he played practically without injury, without missing a game, from his youth to the end of his storied career."

Note: I used the existing translation provided by Sturminator.
In life, the hero - wide in the shoulders and calm, outwardly a little clumsy, on the ice Vyacheslav transformed. He became angry, merciless - and to the opponent and to himself, amazed by the i lawful strength, the desire to be the first in everything. And not only in matches, but also in training. In battles in front of the opponent's gate was unstoppable. The Canadians seemed to know how to keep the otherers' forwards close to their "piglet" and couldn't help them. With an iron grip of the club, firmly standing on the feet of Vyacheslav never hid his intentions - threw the opponent an open challenge and rushed to the goal in a straight line. And with this directness acted on the defenders, as a boa constrictor on a rabbit. (...) This outstanding player had an extraordinary reserve of strength in strength, in pressure, in a relentless desire to achieve what he wanted and glorify himself and the team. And the stability of Starshinov could be envied by the most eminent masters - he played almost without disruptions. Both in his youth and towards the end of his faithful service to hockey.
Nikolay Sologubov: "Somewhat inferior to Boris Mayorov in regards to flashy individual skills (but only really in the early days) was Vyacheslav Starshinov, a player with extraordinary stamina and capacity for work and great tactical prowess. Starshinov is incredibly bold and his strong shot has earned him the reputation of being one of the most productive forwards in our hockey."
Somewhat inferior to Boris Mayorov (however, except at first) in the brilliance of individual skill Vyacheslav Starshinov, hockey player of amazing efficiency, endurance and great tactical skill. The Chiefs were infinitely brave, and the strongest throws earned him the glory of one of the most effective forwards of our hockey.

Vadim Krivenko, Novosti Press Agency (1967):

"The most fearless chap on the [national] squad, possesses tremendous stamina, operates efficiently everywhere on the ice."

Anatoly Tarasov (1971): "Starshinov is a passionate player with a great range of activity. He has the hug of a bear, his physical strength would be enough for three. Now, if you consider his strength it would seem as if he didn't even need much technical skills on top of it, but Starshinov is actually a very skilled player, although he doesn't catch one's eye immediately. His talent is not apparent right away, you need to watch him in action to recognize it. (...) Vyacheslav possesses the highest level of technical skills: His handling of the puck is technically excellent, he has a wide vision, a great pass and a phenomenally strong and accurate shot that he makes use of from almost anywhere. He has a good awareness of the rink and makes the best decision in the most difficult and dramatic situation. But on top of it he still maintains his trump card: his extraordinary strength and self-confidence. He reminds me of a cruiser, steadily cutting its way through the waves of the sea. (...) Again, Vyacheslav's technique is very peculiar. Sometimes I wonder how he manages to get past one opponent after the other. He doesn't use any distinguished dekes. And yet, when you try to stop him, you recognize he has a firm grip on the puck, even though it doesn't look like anything you're used to."

Sturminator.
These qualities of Starshinov led us, the coaches of the national team, to the idea that Vyacheslav's role should be expanded. In Spartak in the final phase of the attack, he acted from a long-distance position, with insurance, we offered him to go to the finish, to create obstacles to the goalkeeper. And this manner, combined with sudden and slashing throws-strikes of the slings unusual made Starshinov a thunderstorm for the goalkeepers.
David Bauer (1968): "Both [scil. the Soviets and the NHLers] have their own qualities. It would be difficult for the players to play on the team of the opponent. In my opinion the only Soviet players who wouldn't be at loss [when switching to an NHL team] would be Firsov and Starshinov."

Everyone has their good qualities. It would be hard for hockey players to play in the opposing team. In my opinion, only Fursov and the Elders would not be confused from the Soviet hockey players.


Physical game:

Anatoly Tarasov (1971): "The passion that distinguished Starshinov from all of his peers (and not only among the Soviets) over many years is his passion for the physical game. He loved to get involved in the battle, reveal all of his gigantic strength and have a fight within the boundary of the rules. (...) The opponents obstructed him, tortured him and pushed him away from the goal, but he didn't back down. He didn't wait for the opponent to give him a quarter, what he desired was to score a goal and he didn't retreat from that target. In this regard Starshinov compares favourably with Almetov, although Almetov had a clear advantage over him when it came to elegance, finesse and surprising ideas. Starshinov didn't hide what he was on to, but he acted with such power and skill that no counter-measure could save the opponent."

Sturminator once again.
Vyacheslav loved difficult and voluminous training. I do not remember that the Elders ever complained about the excessive severity or complexity of the loads. And in the games - in basketball according to hockey rules, in football, which we gave hockey players in the classes of "sweet" Vyacheslav almost had no equal. We, the coaches, taught others by his example.
Boris Mayorov (1971): "Slava is never satisfied with his own performance and when a game really doesn't go well, he is capable of stepping up. He's always at his best when it's crunch time."

Glory is always dissatisfied with his game. And when the game really does not go, knows how to be above the circumstances. And for the decisive tournament, everyone is ready better than anyone else...
Arkady Chernyshov: "He's a courageous and fearless player. When he took a puck to the head and had his cheek cut open at the 1969 World Championship in Stockholm, the doctors told him not to play, but he still begged us coaches to let him on the ice. And he played great when it mattered most. And [in 1967] at the Vienna World Championship? Our players were having a hard time playing against Canadian defenceman Carl Brewer and Slava asked Tarasov and me to let him play against Brewer. He didn't know what the outcome of their duel would be, but in order to stand up for his team he was ready to take the challenge."

Brave and courageous hockey player. When in 1969 in Stockholm he had his cheek cut with a puck and doctors banned him from playing, he still begged us, the coaches, to let him out on the ice. And at a critical moment played great. And in Vienna? Canadian defender Carl Brover was very good at our players. And as Slava asked me and Tarasov to allow him to "play" against Brewer. He did not know how their fight would end, but was eager to stand up for the team, consciously took risks.
Anatoli Firsov (1968): "Slava has work ethic and courage in spades. In difficult times he has more than once infected us with his enthusiam."

Glory's hard work and courage at least spare. In difficult moments, he repeatedly courted us with his enthusiasm.​
Andrei Starostin: "I remember Slava enduring defeats, sometimes cruel and crushing defeats. But I don't remember him ever surrendering."
I remember Glory suffering defeats, sometimes defeats cruel, crushing. But I'll give my a pardon to the one who surrendered.​
Temperament and discipline:

Anatoly Tarasov (1968): "Sometimes they say that Starshinov is quite an undisciplined player. That is both right and wrong. When playing for his club team, it is true that Starshinov sometimes takes a quaint attitude towards the rules and can interpret them quite freely. In fact, he simply plays rough. But when he plays for the USSR National team, Starshinov transforms into an absolutely different man. He knows how high the requirements are, and he knows the price the team will have to pay if he is penalized. That is why he plays a clean game, without losing control of himself, without acting up. Therefore, it is not surprising that in all the games of the 1965 World Hockey Championship he had only one two-minute penalty."

Note: I used the existing English translation from "Road to Olympus" (1969), but made some corrections.
Sometimes they say and write that the Elders are a completely undisciplined player. That's not true. Indeed, playing in the club team, the Elders sometimes allows himself too freely to interpret the existing rules, sometimes simply rude. But the same Elders, playing for the national team of the country, is completely transformed. There he is charged high, he knows the price of removal and therefore acts on the field correctly, without losing control over himself. It is not surprising that during the draw of the World Cup of Hockey in 1965, he was only once removed from the field for two minutes, as they say, "on his own initiative".
Boris Mayorov (1970): "Starshinov was always a much more relaxed guy than we [scil. the Mayorov brothers] were. Perhaps you could even classify him as phlegmatic. It's not that he was indifferent to the referees' sanctions or remained silent. But while the rest of us yelled so that the entire arena could hear us, he only mumbled to himself and no-one could make out whether he was bad-mouthing the referees or he was dissatisfied with himself or he was complaining about the quarrelsome temper of us, his linemates. Yet the reputation of the whole trio cast its shadow on Starshinov too and he also became subject to the sermons of the press and the Sports Technical Commission."

In fact, the Elders have always been a much calmer man than we are. It can even, perhaps, be classified as phlegmatic. Not that he was indifferent to the referee's "repression" or silent on the court, but such a manner: all that we shouted at the whole stadium, he tambourine under his nose, and no one could make out whether he really scolds the judges, whether he is dissatisfied with himself, or condemns for the absurd temper of us, his partners. And yet the shadow of the whole trio with its reputation fell on Starshinov, and he at least we had to listen to the lectures of the press and members of the sports and technical commission.​
In the fall of 1968, Starshinov was voted captain of the Soviet national team by the players.

Boris Mayorov: "On the ice he's able to move mountains and perform miracles, but to say the right words at the right time is not his part. He isn't good at encouraging others."
In my ears is still the monotonous voice of Slavka Starshinov, the captain of the national team. He is able to turn mountains and perform on the site any miracle, but to say at the right moment the right words - it is not his part. He can't encourage others.​

Gee, that's quite some original content. [Sarcasm]

In seriousness, I just wonder why it wouldn't be possible to quote or refer to the author if one copies a wall of content.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ResilientBeast

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,489
17,920
Connecticut
Saddened that Harry Cameron is still ineligible. Still unsure Karlsson is any better. He is paying way too much for his so-called "uncoachability", when in fact the man was dominant for a long time and excelled as a playoff performer leading to multiple SCs. I find it funny that Sundin is in, while Cameron is nowhere to be seen. Where are the Toronto fans to support their original superstar?

Cournoyer is an easy #1 at this point. His big games resume is towering over the field. I also like Yakushev. Given last round's results, I'm not holding my breathe that the former will make the list though.

Don't see it.

I had Cournoyer, Conacher and Yakushev all in the 190s. But I've still got 3 players I rated higher and a couple farther back that I now think should be ranked higher.
 

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,157
7,292
Regina, SK
- Is there any reason to doubt that Worsley deserves to be the next pre-expansion goalie on the list? Anyone want to take a stab at convincing me otherwise?

- Roy Conacher, by VsX, seems like the most accomplished offensive forward here, plus anytime it's even close, I'm inclined to side with the older player - shorter career lengths, smaller leagues, etc, make it harder to rack up high VsX seasons. That said, Conacher really seems like a low substance kind of player. One-dimensional and had a reputation for being "made" by Bill Cowley. I don't know what I'm planning to do with him. Anyone else?

- Lester Patrick had such a long and illustrious career that I think it would be impossible to keep him off this list. He was a good enough defenseman, but half his career he was a rover for a dynasty and was right at or near the top of the list of players who most frequently received credit for their performances.
 

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,185
933
John LeClair has a solid international record we haven't discussed much. He's a 2x tournament all-star who was a key player on a World Cup winner and Olympic Silver Medal team.

LeClair was 2nd in points in 1996 (Hull 11, LeClair 10) and 3rd in points in 2002 (Sundin 9, Hull 8, LeClair/Sakic 7). He led the 2002 Olympics in goals (6 in 6 games) and was 2nd in the 1996 World Cup (6 goals in 7 games).

His prime was 6 seasons, but in that time he was a strong Even Strength scorer, leading the NHL in ES points in 1997. Playing with Lindros is a factor, but they shared credit on 30 of LeClair's 81 ES points, so LeClair was producing without Lindros too.

NHL ES points leaders, 1995-2000
GPESPESP/G
Jagr4144201.01
LeClair4503560.79
Selanne4293370.79
Lindros3603250.90
Sundin4423090.70
Forsberg3932980.76
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

In that span he leads the NHL in plus minus (+159) and should probably win over the ratio crowd in the regular season and the playoffs. In this span he is 2nd in goals to Jagr 262-261, (he played 36 more games, but staying healthy is a plus, isn't it?). Mixed bag in the playoffs. 62 points in 74 games puts him 12th in raw playoff points from 1995-2000 is okay, though he ran into a few Hasek/Brodeur/CuJo games and did have a few moments for the Canadiens 1993 Cup.

LeClair probably has the 2nd best prime of eligible forwards, after Conacher.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Hawkman and ted2019

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,185
933
- Is there any reason to doubt that Worsley deserves to be the next pre-expansion goalie on the list? Anyone want to take a stab at convincing me otherwise?

- Roy Conacher, by VsX, seems like the most accomplished offensive forward here, plus anytime it's even close, I'm inclined to side with the older player - shorter career lengths, smaller leagues, etc, make it harder to rack up high VsX seasons. That said, Conacher really seems like a low substance kind of player. One-dimensional and had a reputation for being "made" by Bill Cowley. I don't know what I'm planning to do with him. Anyone else?

- Lester Patrick had such a long and illustrious career that I think it would be impossible to keep him off this list. He was a good enough defenseman, but half his career he was a rover for a dynasty and was right at or near the top of the list of players who most frequently received credit for their performances.

Can be tough to rank, but aside from being "made" by Cowley, he was made into an Art Ross winner by Bentley & Mosienko, and in the middle, made by whoever (guessing Taylor?) was on his Wings line. He was made into a Top 2 goal scorer and Top 10 point scorer by half the teams in the league.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ResilientBeast

trentmccleary

Registered User
Mar 2, 2002
22,228
1,103
Alfie-Ville
Visit site
LeClair probably has the 2nd best prime of eligible forwards, after Conacher.

All 3 of Leclair (6yr), Alfredsson (6yr) and Conacher (5yr) were 3rd in points during their prime. Leclair was 7th in PPG among the top-10, while Conacher was 4th and Alfredsson was tied for 2nd.

Rank1995_00PtsPPGRank2002_2008PtsPPGRank1947_51PtsPPG
1Jagr6391.541Thornton5771.241Richard2930.95
2Selanne5431.272Jagr5201.112Lindsay2850.93
3Leclair5021.123Alfredsson5081.113Conacher2770.89
4Sakic4961.274Iginla4951.054Abel2760.87
5Forsberg4911.255Hossa4861.025M.Bentley2700.86
6Lindros4871.356Naslund4720.976D.Bentley2630.95
7Francis4801.087Heatley4711.117Howe2570.86
8Kariya4641.238Kovalchuk4661.008Kennedy2500.85
9Fleury4561.029Sundin4591.009Schmidt2220.83
10Sundin4541.0310Lecavalier4510.9510Lach2130.83
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
- Is there any reason to doubt that Worsley deserves to be the next pre-expansion goalie on the list? Anyone want to take a stab at convincing me otherwise?

Frankly, there's probably a decent argument to be made that, all in all, Chuck Rayner made a bit more of a difference than Worsley did (and also more of a difference than just about every player available this round), and Rayner DOES absolutely require some kind of upwards adjustment due to leaving for the WWII (in that, his "prime" must be assumed to have started a tad earlier). Which isn't quite the same as saying Rayner "added" more value than Worsley. It's not quite your average prime vs. longevity dilemma.
 
Last edited:

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,157
7,292
Regina, SK
Can be tough to rank, but aside from being "made" by Cowley, he was made into an Art Ross winner by Bentley & Mosienko, and in the middle, made by whoever (guessing Taylor?) was on his Wings line. He was made into a Top 2 goal scorer and Top 10 point scorer by half the teams in the league.

Fair point, that's what this reputation was but maybe it shouldn't have been.

We should still pay attention to who seemed to have the star power and critical acclaim when we're talking about a time before video. Those guys are gone, so maybe it's time for him now. Still not sure.

Is he the next best forward of his time left out? Who else is in the running for that distinction?
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,257
138,786
Bojangles Parking Lot
One of the things that probably held Conacher back in our Round 1 voting was his lack of All-Star recognition. He had that huge 1949 season resulting in a narrow 1AS over Ted Lindsay, but otherwise has almost nothing to his name as far as individual recognition. There are a bunch of seasons where he only received 1 or 2 votes, which gives a very strong impression of being a 1-season wonder. That's especially tough when he has the big WWII gap in the middle of his prime, but there's not a lot to suggest he'd have been rated a top player if he had stuck around. A goal scorer, for sure, but distinctly left off most lists of best LWs in a small league.

The one that's a bit odd to me is his 1951. Conacher's Hawks were absolutely awful, but he led them with a 13-point margin over his nearest teammate (50 to 37) and somehow managed to finish 5th in goals and 12th in points. Ted Lindsay ran away with the 1AS, which is fair enough, but why did Conacher not merit better award recognition than Sid Smith, who finished 4th on Toronto with only 1 more point? Was it just a matter of Smith having better exposure, or did Smith actually do better things for the Leafs than Conacher did for the Hawks?

I don't want to assume he was an empty-stats player based on this alone, but it does kind of cry out for an explanation.
 

Weztex

Registered User
Feb 6, 2006
3,113
3,701
From the awards thread, here are the years when Lester Patrick was named on all-star teams by different publications.

ECAHA, Team East - 1906-07 - Rover (Ottawa Citizen, 1907)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1911-12 - Rover (Winnipeg Tribune, 1912)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1912-13 - Defense (The Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol 1., 1966)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1914-15 - Left defense - (Oregon Daily Journal, 1915)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1915-16 - Defense (Oregon Daily Journal, 1916/Ottawa Journal, 1916/The Trail of the Stanley Cup, vol 1., 1966)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1916-17 - Defense (Calgary Daily Herald)
PCHA All-Star Team - 1917-18 - Point (Toronto World, 1918) *appeared on Fred Ion's team but not by George Irvine's
PCHA 2nd All-Star Team - 1919-20 - Point (Calgary Daily Herald, 1920)

Patrick seem to have been an elite player for almost a whole decade. In addition of being the Wanderers captain for the 1906 and 1907 cups victories, he was considered the best at his position 6 times in the Pacific Coast Hockey League (well... 5 and a half times). I'm not really sure how much value we can attribute to those.

It it safe to say that Lester Patrick was probably a top-5 defenseman in the world between 1912 and 1920? If that's the case his resume may well be the best of all available players.
 

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,489
17,920
Connecticut
One of the things that probably held Conacher back in our Round 1 voting was his lack of All-Star recognition. He had that huge 1949 season resulting in a narrow 1AS over Ted Lindsay, but otherwise has almost nothing to his name as far as individual recognition. There are a bunch of seasons where he only received 1 or 2 votes, which gives a very strong impression of being a 1-season wonder. That's especially tough when he has the big WWII gap in the middle of his prime, but there's not a lot to suggest he'd have been rated a top player if he had stuck around. A goal scorer, for sure, but distinctly left off most lists of best LWs in a small league.

The one that's a bit odd to me is his 1951. Conacher's Hawks were absolutely awful, but he led them with a 13-point margin over his nearest teammate (50 to 37) and somehow managed to finish 5th in goals and 12th in points. Ted Lindsay ran away with the 1AS, which is fair enough, but why did Conacher not merit better award recognition than Sid Smith, who finished 4th on Toronto with only 1 more point? Was it just a matter of Smith having better exposure, or did Smith actually do better things for the Leafs than Conacher did for the Hawks?

I don't want to assume he was an empty-stats player based on this alone, but it does kind of cry out for an explanation.

A rather remarkable goal scorer.

Conacher led the league in his rookie year.

Before the war he was 1, 7, 2, 2 in goals.

Missed 4 seasons, then comes back and in the next 5 seasons has 2, 2, 5, 6 finishes.

Higher goals & points per game than Bryan Hextall in the regular season and playoffs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: tarheelhockey

seventieslord

Student Of The Game
Mar 16, 2006
36,157
7,292
Regina, SK
A rather remarkable goal scorer.

Conacher led the league in his rookie year.

Before the war he was 1, 7, 2, 2 in goals.

Missed 4 seasons, then comes back and in the next 5 seasons has 2, 2, 5, 6 finishes.

Higher goals & points per game than Bryan Hextall in the regular season and playoffs.

All true, but then we have to ask what was Hextall doing and/or what was Conacher not doing, for the former to be voted one of the league's best wingers so many times and the other to not be?
 

tarheelhockey

Offside Review Specialist
Feb 12, 2010
85,257
138,786
Bojangles Parking Lot
A rather remarkable goal scorer.

Conacher led the league in his rookie year.

Before the war he was 1, 7, 2, 2 in goals.

Missed 4 seasons, then comes back and in the next 5 seasons has 2, 2, 5, 6 finishes.

Higher goals & points per game than Bryan Hextall in the regular season and playoffs.

That’s why I’m trying to make sense of his lack of AS recognition. Generally a LW with that scoring profile would get a decent look when awards season rolls around. What was missing that caused Conacher to have near-zero votes almost every season?

In ‘40 and ‘41 it’s easy to chalk it up to playing on the same team at the same position as Woody Dumart. But that’s only two seasons...

Also, regarding his rookie season (‘39) it’s remarkable how underwhelming the goalscoring leaderboard looks. Conacher, Blake, Shibicky, Smith, Hextall, Carr, Coville. I think of the 30s as a good competitive period, and the points leaderboard looks a lot better. Have we underrated that cohort, or was there just something in the water that year?
 

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad