Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 18

[Dennis Bonvie]

Distant third for the way the top 4 players of Tampa played in those playoffs is kind of... I don't know, tough. He led the team in scoring by a decent amount, but Kucherov is a subtle player while Point "looks" more dominant because of the way he plays (carries the puck a lot, low center of gravity, etc.). I thought ignoring Kucherov's accomplishments last postseason was odd. I agree Hedman was the winner, but Kucherov got disrespected when compared to Point (as did Vasilevskiy).

That's the thing with Kuch though - he plays such a slow game and he isn't a dangler a la Kane, so he doesn't look flashy. You just blink and realize that he had 1g 2a at the end of the game where you feel like you didn't notice him much.

I'll say this - he may be the best PP player in the league right now. His vision and smarts are off the charts and Tampa missed him in a huge way on the RW side of the PP this year. And I think a little "value" can be added by looking at the fact that Point and Stamkos both finished sub PPG in a season he was gone.

Led the playoffs in assists, points and plus/minus.

25 7-27-34 +15

Yeah, that distant third is a bit misleading.

 

[The Macho King]

Led the playoffs in assists, points and plus/minus.

25 7-27-34 +15

Yeah, that distant third is a bit misleading.

Also -



This is one of the sickest plays I've ever seen, and I didn't even notice it until the third time I watched it.

 

[seventieslord]

Where are you getting these numbers from?

I have added columns to overpass' 1960-2017 spreadsheet. they just use the team GF and GA numbers compared to the league average.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Just want to point out that several people have mentioned voting high for Pospisil (and he had 4 top-4 votes last round) but there hasn't been a single post making an actual case for him in either of the threads he's been eligible.

The best I can do for him is cut-and-paste old posts.. A lot of this info-dump was written in the context of comparing Pospisil to Suchy during a previous ranking project, so keep that in mind considering we are now comparing him to a completely different set of candidates.

František Pospíšil, D

6'0, 185 lbs.
Left handed shot

Czechoslovakian national team captain: 1972-1977

Offensive Accomplishments
Czech League
Points: 5th (1968), 5th (1971), 5th (1972), 9th (1970)

Percentages (VS1): 79.2 (1968), 79.2 (1971), 73.1 (1970), 71.4 (1972)

Offensive Accomplishments Among Defensemen
Czech League
Points: 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 1st (1972), 1st (1973), 1st (1974), 1st (1975), 2nd (1970), 2nd (1977)

Percentages (VS1): 100 (1968), 100 (1971)*, 100 (1972), 100 (1973), 100 (1974), 100 (1975), 86.4 (1970), 83.4 (1977)
*144.8% of 2nd place Suchy

World Championships
1968: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1970: 2nd (VS1: 40%)
1971: 4th (VS1: 57.1%)
1972: 1st
1973: 3rd (VS1: 64.3%)
1976: 6th (VS1: 57.1%)
1977: 2nd (VS1: 85.7%)

Olympics
1972: 2nd (VS1: 83.3%)
1976: 1st (should probably not be considered because he was caught using banned substances)

Award Voting
(most data from here: International & European Hockey Reference)
Czechoslovakian Golden Hockey Stick
1st (1971), 1st (1972), 3rd (1973), 3rd (1977), 5th (1970), 5th (1975), 5th (1976), 6th (1978), 7th (1969), 11th (1974)

For comparison, the Golden Stick voting of Jan Suchy:

1st (1969), 1st (1970), 2nd (1971), 13th (1974), 15th (1972)

Lastly, the comparison between the two in Golden Stick voting based on the percentage of total voting shares:

Frantisek Pospíšil	15.8	14.5	10.2	9.6	8.1	7.5	7.0	6.2	4.9	2.8
Jan Suchy	17.9	15.7	13.9	2.1	1.4	0.6	0.05

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

It should be noted that in this annual poll, Suchy was considered the best player in Czechoslovakia in 1967 and 1968, further adding to his peak, although Pospíšil had a pretty great season in 1968 himself, actually scoring 4 more points than Suchy.

Obviously Suchy had a much better peak, but it is clear that Pospíšil was a relevant player for a much longer period of time. I think that does a lot to bridge the gap between these two players.

Czechoslovakian All Star Selections

There was only one team, so I will just list the years Pospíšil was listed and compare again to Suchy:

Pospíšil: 1969-1973, 1975-1977 (total: 8 seasons)
Suchy: 1969-1971 (total: 3 seasons)

World Championship Voting

František Pospíšil:

Best Defenseman: 1972, 1976
All-Star Team: 1972, 1976, 1977
Izvestia Tournament Best Defenseman*: 1969-1971, 1975

*notable as a best-on-best "mini-WHC" tournament, it featured all the best Soviet and Czech players

Jan Suchy:

Best Defenseman: 1969, 1971
All-Star Team: 1968, 1969, 1970, 1971

This is pretty close to even, especially if you take the Izvestia tournament results seriously.


From this website we can see the opinions of various people regarding the top-10 best Czech players of all time. Note that this list quite possibly shows individual bias towards certain players. I'll note below the placements of Suchy and Pospíšil.

Pospíšil: 4th, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th, 10th
Suchy: 2nd, 2nd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 3rd, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 4th, 5th, 5th, 5th, 6th, 6th, 6th, 7th, 7th, 8th, 8th, 9th, 9th, 9th, 10th, 10th, 10th

Awards at the World Championships (1954-1991)

Frantisek Pospisil (CSSR)

• Directorate Best Defenseman (1972, 1976)
• All Star Defenseman (1972, 1976, 1977)

In the 1970s Team Czechoslovakia was a serious challenge to the powerful Soviets for international hockey supremacy. They were led by their great defenseman, Frantisek Pospisil.

Pospisil, along with regular partner Oldrich Machac, was the anchor of the team's defense from 1967 through 1977. In that time he aided CSSR to three World Championship gold medals, two strong showings at the Olympics (bronze in 1972, silver in 1976) and second place at the 1976 Canada Cup. Twice he was named top defenseman at the World Championships.

Domestically Pospisil starred with Poldi Kladno, pairing with Frantisek Kaberle Sr., from 1961 through 1978. Twice he won the Golden Stick award as the best player in all of Czechoslovakia, a rare accomplishment for a defenseman. He scored 134 career goals in 622 league games. Kladno won four league championships during Pospisil's reign.

Pospisil was blessed with good size and great strength. He was a feared physical player in international hockey, though he always played cleanly. He relied primarily on hockey smarts and positional defense. He contributed nicely to the offensive, primarily as a playmaker, as was the norm in those days.

"I was never a great skater. I never had the right speed. Therefore I tried to think quickly. I adhered to the principle that a pass is quicker than a player," he was quoted as saying in the excellent book, The Kings of the Ice.

Controversy swirled around Pospisil at the 1976 Olympics when drug testing found him guilty of using the banned substance codeine. Pospisil admitted he was taking codeine in order to fight off a flu that had spread through the Olympic village. As a result of the failed test, Czechoslovakia had to forfeit their game against Poland, rescinding the 7-1 victory they achieved earlier in the night. The forfeit cost the Czechoslovaks any hope of the gold medal. Pospisil was allowed to continue playing.

Inducted into the IIHF Hall of Fame in 1999, Pospisil also enjoyed a lengthy career as a coach.

Nice quote about one of his strengths - excellent conditioning:

"The main purpose of the tests was the investigation of energetics of organism, meaning the ability of one´s body to produce the most work during the hardest burden - experts explains... Performance is measured on the 'dynamoergometr' (not sure how to translate this, I think it was just a lot more complicated stationary bike - DN) during 170 beats per minute. The most efficient was FrantiÅ¡ek PospÃÅ¡il, he produced 549 watts. Machač have already recovered from the worst and of course he starts (talking - DN) right away: 'Couldn´t Franta borrow that bicycle home? He would moonlight in KyÅ¡ice (his home - DN) as a village power station."

This happened during 1973-74 season when Pospisil was about to hit 30, and he still managed to end up with the best results on physical tests.

What needs to be said is Pospisil´s leadership. He became captain in 1972 and he immediatelly led his team to its first gold since 1949. Captain of the winning teams in 1976, 1977. Long-time captain of his domestic team Poldi Kladno, which became dynasty in 2nd half of the 70s. Kladno won titles in 1975, 76, 77, 78, then Pospisil went to play his last season in Germany and Kladno lost to Slovan Bratislava in 79. Kladno won its last title in 1980 when Pospisil came back as a new head coach.

Suchy and Pospisil both were number one d-men of their respective dynasties. But Pospisil had it harder since Kladno wasn´t an army team. Dukla Jihlava was army team, and dynasty before them in 50s, early 60s - RH Brno - was owned by the ministry of interior (i.e. police, secret services... similar to Dynamo Moscow). So Brno was the state-managed club also.

Kladno couldn´t steal other players and only players from this time in late 70s who played for NT were Pospisil, Novy, Eduard Novák and František Kaberle. That was it. It was very impressive what they achieved.

Also in Pospisil's favor is that he was longtime captain of the Czech national team, and his personal performance at that level seems to closely correlate with the success of the team. Pospisil was named to the WEC-A all-star team all three times the Czechs won the tournament in the 1970s.

Pospisil is the guy that I would have on the ice if my team was up by a goal with a minute left on the clock.

Pospisil was like old German football (soccer) star Franz Beckenbauer, “Der Kaiser”, reliable, an excellent leader and someone who could motivate his players, qualities that you don’t find on a statistical sheet. To me it was virtually a dead heat between Vasiliev and Pospisil.

It has been discussed in great details last voting already.
In sum, I agree with you. Looking at both careers in retrospective, Pospisil looks better and I have him above Suchy.

It´s interesting however, how different career paths they had while starting on similar grounds. Like I mentioned before, both were on that famous training camp of NT at the beginning of 1963-64 season as a cca 18yo juniors (along with young Nedomansky or Jiri Holik). But then Suchy took off and made NT in WC 1965, while Pospisil had to wait 3 seasons.

GS voting records were also brought up, Pospisil´s record is much better. But to be fair to Suchy, he would be a winner at least in 1968 (at least sport magazines considered him clearly best player at the time), and would probably finish high in those voting in 67, 66 too. (Like Batis already mentioned those stats you posted look wrong, especially Pospisil didn´t score that much points that early in his career)
I´ve made a claim last voting that Pospisil´s peak wasn´t that much behind Suchy though. Pospisil´s peak came a little later but still overlapped with Suchy´.

And it´s interesting how their careers turned out after their 1973-74 season. Pospisil went through crisis that year and looked to be done. He turned 30 after all, so it wasn´t surprising. But then he made his comeback - Kladno dynasty emerged and Pospisil returned to NT and as a captain led his team to success (WC 76, 77 + CC 76).
While Suchy was slightly behind Pospisil in GS voting that season (73-74), his last hurrah in NT wasn´t dissapointing - had the most points among d-men in his team and was 2nd most productive among d-men overall in that WC + he actually received few all-star votes, unlike Pospisil who got benched in his last game of the tournament.
But Suchy didn´t earn any other nomination, and Karel Gut certainly wasn´t shy of using veterans (return of Vlado Dzurilla to NT in 1976 is a prime example), if they were good enough. Pospisil prolonged his career and was still excellent European d-man when his career was about to end.

Both have been apparently very good two-way, complete d-men during their peak. Both have been number one d-man of their club dynasties and of the national team. Pospisil had longer career, tremendous leadership, better MVP voting, more "professional" attitude.
Suchy had better peak, got much more admired by observers, revolutionized the way how European defensemen played, got more all-star votes.

Looking at their careers as a whole, it´s not too much difficult to put Pospisil ahead. But it´s not wrong by any means to prefer Suchy and go with opinion that Suchy is widely considered the best Czech defenseman by general fans, former players, journalists... in the Czech Republic.

EDIT:
Some interesting votings:

JIŘÍ HOLEČEK
1. Dominik Hašek
2. Vladimír Martinec
3. Jan Suchý
4. Jaromír Jágr
5. Vladimír Zábrodský
6. Bohumil Modrý
7. Jaroslav Holík
8. Jiří Králík
9. František Pospíšil
10. Vlastimil Bubník

MILOSLAV JENŠÍK
(popular hockey historian who closely watched CS hockey from late 50s to this day)
1. Dominik Hašek
2. Jaromír Jágr
3. Jiří Holeček
4. Vladimír Zábrodský
5. Václav Nedomanský
6. Josef Maleček
7. Ivan Hlinka
8. Bohumil Modrý
9. Robert Reichel
10. Jiří Holík
---> no Suchy and Pospisil!

VLADIMÍR KOSTKA
(I described who this guy is here)
1. Dominik Hašek
2. Vladimír Martinec
3. Vladimír Zábrodský
4. Jiří Holík
5. Jaromír Jágr
6. František Pospíšil
7. Vlastimil Bubník
8. Ivan Hlinka
9. Milan Nový
10. Bohumil Modrý

KAREL GUT
1. Dominik Hašek
2. Jaromír Jágr
3. Vladimír Martinec
4. Vladimír Zábrodský
5. Josef Maleček
6. Vlastimil Bubník
7. Jan Suchý
8. František Pospíšil
9. Jiří Holík
10. Ivan Hlinka

JAROSLAV PITNER
1. Jaromír Jágr
2. Dominik Hašek
3. Vladimír Martinec
4. Jan Suchý
5. Jaroslav Holík
6. Jiří Holík
7. František Pospíšil
8. Jiří Holeček
9. Vlastimil Bubník
10. Vladimír Zábrodský

FRANTIŠEK POSPÍŠIL
1. Dominik Hašek
2. Jaromír Jágr
3. Vladimír Zábrodský
4. Josef Maleček
5. Jan Suchý
6. Vlastimil Bubník
7. Vladimír Martinec
8. Bohumil Modrý
9. Václav Nedomanský
10. František Tikal

Suchý didn´t cast a vote.

So, does Pospisil's longer prime move him past Suchy? Recently I've used to think so, since Pospisil's much longer career as a mainstay on Team CSSR was a big factor for me. But I'm not totally sure about that now.
Namely, one thing about Pospisil bothers me a bit; as we know, Pospisil was a three-time WHC all-star (and two-time best forward, of course), but outside those big years, his WHC all-star voting record looks quite weak actually (based on the information we have); it is not only that he did not seem to get much recognition in the 1960s, there also were no votes for him even in 1970, 1971 nor 1974, when he was in his very prime. His defensive partner Oldrich Machac got more all-star votes e.g. in 1969, 1972(!) and 1974. Maybe Pospisil's talents were a bit 'too subtle' and 'harder-to-detect' and the media had their eyes on the more offensive forwards still in the early 1970s, and he needed to be really good in order to get some recognition... or, well, he simply was a little mediocre in those tournaments, which would mean that Pospisil does not have as great an advantage over Suchy in international competition as I had once thought.

Suchy and Pospisil are of the same age, they attended training camp of the national team at the beginning of the 1963-64 season. This was the camp that had also been attended by Nedomansky, Suchy and Jiri Holik for the 1st time.
Only Jiri Holik from this group made it right to the Olympics 1964. Suchy and Nedomansky started in WC 1965. Pospisil took some time and made it in WC 1967 for his 1st time.
...
Overall Suchy was the best player in 1968, 1969, 1970. But Pospisil was voted as best Czechoslovak player in 1971 and 1972 - when Suchy was still in his peak!

Their top 10 scoring placements in the league:
Suchy - 7th (or 5th), 1st, 4th (or 2nd)
Pospisil - 9th, 5th (4th including playoffs), 4th

Of course, Suchy was much more admired in Europe during his peak than Pospisil. He was definitely better but I wonder how much. Suchy´s game was certainly more flashy than Pospisil. Despite Pospisil put impressive scoring seasons by himself, he didn´t attack like Suchy - false wing attacking and shooting right in front of opponent´s goalie. Pospisil focused more on controlling the play from the blueline and relied on his accurate passing, good positioning and good shot (possibly better than Suchy´s, at least from the blueline).

Frantisek Pospisil was actually supposed to end his international career after his WC 74 also! He had his down year in 1973-74, wasn´t in top 10 GS voting nor league´s All-star d-man. He sat out the third period in the last game against Finland even as a captain because he sucked. I believe he had some injuries during that season and the season before.
Look at the lineup against Canada at the beginning of the 1974-75 season after the Summit series 74. Pospisil was not there not because of the injury, but because both him and Gut thought he was done.
But the 1974-75 was the 1st season of emerging dynasty in Kladno. Gut simply couldn´t ignore best d-man of the best domestic team. Pospisil adjusted his game after his little crisis as he started to focus more on defense and became more of reliable, tough stay-at-home defenseman controlling the play in the defensive zone, not so much in the offensive zone anymore. He simplified his game very well and as a result was his WC awards in 1976, 1977 when he was already over 30 years old.

I would never call Pospisil an offensive d-man too. That label certainly belongs to Suchy or Bubla, not Pospisil. Karel Gut in his "Small Encyclopedia" writes about types of defensemen that the usual division is defensive / offensive d-man, but then he mentions some defensemen that have balanced defensive-offensive part of the game and as an example of such d-men Gut mentions Fetisov and Pospisil.

Pospisil said in his book that he was among the slowest skaters since childhood. He recognized that as natural thing and focused more on things that could be developed simply by hard trainings. Things like good positioning in the defensive zone, accurate passing, physical strength and excellent conditioning. Those were his main advantages + his leadership personality.

His domestic numbers between 1970-72 suggest he was very good offensively. Like I said though, he didn´t do offensive rushes up to the goalie like Suchy, he didn´t play a false wing. His offense was based on controlling the play from the blueline and distributing the puck to the hot scoring areas. Unlike Suchy, Pospisil had pretty good shot from the blueline, Suchy had much better wristshot though. I´m fairly certain that Pospisil peaked during this period because he was really complete as a defenseman. He had good body, wasn´t shy of physical game, was very reliable defensively while still providing good offense. His GS voting record seems to prove this assumption when his only wins came in 1971, 1972.

I think strong argument for Pospisil over Suchy came from his post-1974 achievements where it seems like Pospisil managed to adjust his game greatly. It´s not explicitly said in his biography but it´s indicated that he stopped being so demanding of himself when his balanced style of play was no longer sustainable. He simplified his game and again - like I said above - he focused more on things he could still improve. Things about improving his defense while maintaining good passing, good conditioning and especially his physical strength (he looks really big in photos of him in his 30s, certainly was one of the most muscled man from his teams). Suchy wasn´t much of a factor after 1974.

Finally, some quotes from Pospisil´s biography.

Nice quote about one of his strengths - excellent conditioning:

"The main purpose of the tests was the investigation of energetics of organism, meaning the ability of one´s body to produce the most work during the hardest burden - experts explains... Performance is measured on the 'dynamoergometr' [not sure how to translate this, I think it was just a lot more complicated stationary bike] during 170 beats per minute. The most efficient was František Pospíšil, he produced 549 watts. Machač have already recovered from the worst and of course he starts [talking] right away: 'Couldn´t Franta borrow that bicycle home? He would moonlight the Kyšice [his home] as a village power station."

This happened during 1973-74 season when Pospisil was about to hit 30, and he still managed to end up with the best results on physical tests.

What needs to be said is Pospisil´s leadership. He became captain in 1972 and he immediatelly led his team to its first gold since 1949. Captain of the winning teams in 1976, 1977. Long-time captain of his domestic team Poldi Kladno, which became dynasty in 2nd half of the 70s. Kladno won titles in 1975, 76, 77, 78, then Pospisil went to play his last season in Germany and Kladno lost to Slovan Bratislava in 79. Kladno won its last title in 1980 when Pospisil came back as a new head coach.
Suchy and Pospisil both were number one d-men of their respective dynasties. But Pospisil had it harder since Kladno wasn´t an army team. Dukla Jihlava was the army team, and dynasty before Jihlava in 50s, early 60s - RH Brno - was owned by the ministry of interior (i.e. police, secret services... similar to Dynamo Moscow). So Brno was the state-managed club also.
Kladno couldn´t "steal" other players and only players from this time in late 70s who played for NT were Pospisil, Novy, Eduard Novak and Frantisek Kaberle. That was it. It was very impressive what they achieved.

I was able to dig up the quote in his bio from the contemporary newspapers ("Lidová demokracie") talking about his influence on the performance of Milan Novy:

"In January of 1978, Lidová demokracie wrote on the sideline of Kladno´s overseas trip: 'Line of Nový, who stagnated in the Izvestia Cup, now scored all goals to Chicago. That makes for consideration of how far stands and falls the performance of this line with the presence of Pospíšil. In the games against Swedes in Prague and later in Moscow, he [Pospíšil] was missing and the game of Nový remained under his league level, in overseas though, he plays excellent again."

Games that Kladno played overseas were following:
New York Rangers - Poldi Kladno 4:4
Chicago Blackhawks - Poldi Kladno 4:6
Toronto Maple Leafs - Poldi Kladno 5:8
Cleveland Barons - Poldi Kladno 4:3

Finally I got 3 quotes from the ending of his book.

His childhood idol and his 1st defensive partner in Kladno in early 60s, Stanislav Bacílek:
"Franta, as one of few people, managed to catch his chance. He did everything for hockey. I´ve never seen him drink, he always came prepared for the game. He went after his goals straight and hard. He wanted still more and it was clear to us that he´s going to get it."

His longtime defensive partner in Kladno, František Kaberle:
"Already as a junior, I knew that he is a true friend and that was only confirmed after my arrival to the team. During tours around the league we had lived together for 2 years and during that time I got to know him thoroughly. He was the real captain, leader of the team. I´ve always wished to have such attitude to the sport and life. Straight, honest, truth-telling from eyes to eyes. An example for others on and of the ice. When we were failing, he could deliver the right atmosphere. When he didn´t like something, he raised his voice. We all knew that his concern is the team. The whole time he was helping me, even though I hadn´t realized it at first. He always tried to facilitate the situation for me as much as he could. He passed the puck to me only when it was absolutely safe. People often didn´t even understand why did he make yet one more deke. I did."

And his longtime defense partner in the National team, Oldřich Machač:
"He was always the lighthouse of peace in the storm of nervousness. When the moment came, that everyone had their heads down, few words were enough and we went behind him."

Boston was interested in Suchy, but Pospisil was approached by an NHL team - Toronto - also. In this article is said that Ted Lindsay even came to visit Pospisil in his home (it was probably after his Canada cup 76).

EDIT: One last thing I should say and that is on defense of Suchy. He is still to this day the leading scoring defenseman in goals and points among Czechs both internationally and domestically.

Franticek Pospisil
Suchy may have been the more flashy blueliner, but Pospisil was the pillar of stability.
The only knock on him was that he was a relatively poor skater, so he seldom initiated attacks by carrying the puck like Suchy for example. On the other hand, Pospisil was one of the best conditioned players on his team, if not the best. He was positionally sound and it hurt to play against him as he was very solid physically. A workhorse and unquestioned leader on and off the ice.

 

[DN28]

Extremely busy last few weeks. Just a few thoughts.

Re: Pospíšil. I did indeed rank Pospíšil above Suchý in the project 6 years ago but at that time I didn't know the greatness of Suchý's peak and value of his seasons outside Suchý's peak... But where we ranked Suchý in this project should in no way limit Pospíšil's chances here. He would be a worthy player to go on the list now.

Definitely top-10 player in this group, quite possibly top-5. But I'm not going to rank him ahead of Bouchard since I don't see Pospíšil having quite as good AST/Norris record as Bouchard had in his time. Speaking of Bouchard, I think he really needs to go on the list.

Back to Pospíšil, I wrote my fresh take on him in the preliminary discussion thread. Here's the re-post:

"František Pospíšil was already mentioned in this thread as well as Kasatonov. He is player who under close inspection is probably end up being a favourite to many of you. He was a charismatic leader who commanded instant respect in the room. Pospíšil was a balanced, two-way defenseman with tremendous CSSR league career. SONP Kladno was an upper-tier Czechoslovak team in the early 70s solely thanks to Pospíšil. With Milan Nový hitting his prime, Kladno became the League's dynasty in the 2nd half of 1970s. Pospíšil's on-ice impact was impossible not to notice. For example, I have a game report Slovan Bratislava vs. SONP Kladno from 1973 which ended up with 4:3 win for Slovan with Václav Nedomanský scoring 2 goals including the game winning goal in 59th minute. Yet, the reporter raved only about Pospíšil's game, whereas Nedomanský's play was critized... This being said, Pospíšil over time went through many highs and lows. Younger Pospíšil had some good to great league seasons in late 60s which were followed by disappointing performances at Championships. Then he had his peak years, particularly excellent 1972 season which was on par with any other Euro skater. But then he was benched the last game of '74 WHC and removed from the National team for good.. Now of course, as I've said few days ago, that Pospíšil rised back into prominent role subsequently only testifies to his greatness. He did adjust his game and stayed in tip top shape past 30. As late as in 1977, there were Canadian writers claiming Pospíšil would have been a sure thing for the NHL All-Star teams. However, his overall career achievements left something to be desired. Not sure if he should be ranked below or above Kasatonov. Anyway, a top 160-180 player."

 

[DN28]

Re: Yakushev. He's pretty much the last MUST add to the top-200 list. Every single non-NHL Euro who has been added to the list (+ Yak and Pospíšil) had at least a season or two where they were arguably best European player outside NHL (maybe with exception of Petrov and certainly with exception of Kasatonov..). We've been discussing only the very cream of the crop. These discussions have never included top Euro guys who were there in the 1970s, 1980s, had outstanding seasons but were considered kind of in the 2nd tier (think of guys like Kapustin, Bykov, Holík, Lála, Ebermann etc.)

The same cannot be said of a couple NA players we've discussed. There are at least two guys in this very group who were barely even best players on their own lines for just one season in their careers..

I think Yakushev arrived at the right time. He's comparable to Eliáš, Alfredsson, Shanahan, he's in this range of wingers IMO. Should go below Pospíšil though.

Yakushev can be wrongly understood as a guy who only shined in two Summit Series. NO. Yakushev's 3-year peak (1974-76) was up there roughly on the same level as Kharlamov, Martinec.

My take on Yakushev from preliminary discussion thread:

"Alexander Yakushev was something of a Russian version of Václav Nedomanský as you can deduct from a great profile written by Theokritos. Big, technically skilled, shoot-first forward with subpar defensive effort (or abilities). Both Yakushev and Nedomanský are in my opinion underrated in their "Best Players" voting results in their respective countries through their individualistic styles. Both took some time to overcome some of these issues but when they did, they belonged firmly in the group of top Euros outside NHL for a good number of years. Peak? Yakushev has a case for the best Euro player of the 1974-1976 timeframe. WHC All-star in 1974 and 1975 (with the most votes out of everyone in 75) + Best Forward award in 1975 too. Plus 3rd in 1974 Soviet league scoring and 2nd in 1976.

We've mentioned the lack of parity in the Soviet league before. Well, even with that there are reasons why you want to pay attention to that league's results. Despite a total CSKA dominance, Spartak Moscow managed to steal three titles to themselves in 1967, 1969 and 1976, everytime through a significant effort by Yakushev. 20 y/o Yak was 4th in '67 scoring, 1st in '69 scoring and as mentioned, 2nd in '76. Yakushev has no jaw-dropping league stats but I personally appreciate this correlation of "whenever Yakushev scored plenty domestically = Spartak upsets the army team and wins it all". Dynamo Moscow, on contrast, with their Maltsev, Vasiliev or even Pervukhin or Bylialetdinov and with their top coaching (Chernyshev, later Yurzinov IIRC) never won a single league title in 1960-1989 timeframe.

Under close inspection, Yakushev has also decent longevity as an effective player. Played his first international game in mid-60s, first WHC in 1967, missed a subsequent OG 1968 due to injury. Although Yak missed the '78 WHC, he was still a decent member of Soviet team at '79 WHC when he was 32 y/o. A top 170-190 player."

 

[plusandminus]

Alfredsson was great when playing for Sweden. Reliable. Great all-round player. Great defensively when we won the Olympics.
I also remember the NHL writers often stating he was the best forward in OTT, better overall than Heatley.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

A sure sign that I'm not participating in the project to the extent that I'd like - I find I'm not making a lot of changes to my votes from week to week. That's not because I'm confident I got the rankings right on the first try (in fact, I feel less sure, on average, in this project compared to previous ones - maybe because we're in unchartered territory). But that tells me I haven't had time to digest all the new information posted each week, at least to the extent I've normally done. Hopefully my semi-informed voting is better than not voting at all.

 

[bobholly39]

A sure sign that I'm not participating in the project to the extent that I'd like - I find I'm not making a lot of changes to my votes from week to week. That's not because I'm confident I got the rankings right on the first try (in fact, I feel less sure, on average, in this project compared to previous ones - maybe because we're in unchartered territory). But that tells me I haven't had time to digest all the new information posted each week, at least to the extent I've normally done. Hopefully my semi-informed voting is better than not voting at all.

I feel the same. One of the reasons I suggested to open up voting to a few of the non-original participants early on, who were still very clearly engaged in discussions, to gather more votes.

I feel pretty good about my voting record in the top 100 players - this time around, much less so.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

On vacation.

So just real quick - Elias was the leading playoff scorer of the 2000-2009 decade. Obviously 3 trips to the finals helps but still worth noting.

 

[MXD]

Voted. It went roughly like this :

Not an NHL Winger
___
NHL Winger.

Seriously. None of the NHL Wingers (at least in that group) HAS to be on our Final list, and I can't quite think of any other winger that absolutely has to be added. There are quite a few worthy D-Men and especially goaltenders. Let's not waste our time on the likes of Alfredsson and Leclair, please.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Voted. It went roughly like this :

Not an NHL Winger
___
NHL Winger.

Seriously. None of the NHL Wingers (at least in that group) HAS to be on our Final list, and I can't quite think of any other winger that absolutely has to be added. There are quite a few worthy D-Men and especially goaltenders. Let's not waste our time on the likes of Alfredsson and Leclair, please.

But Kucherov is the best player of the lot.

 

[ted2019]

I feel the same. One of the reasons I suggested to open up voting to a few of the non-original participants early on, who were still very clearly engaged in discussions, to gather more votes.

I feel pretty good about my voting record in the top 100 players - this time around, much less so.

The fun is comparing players who aren't as concrete at having a spot then those that you know will have a slot on a particular range.

 

[ted2019]

Voted. It went roughly like this :

Not an NHL Winger
___
NHL Winger.

Seriously. None of the NHL Wingers (at least in that group) HAS to be on our Final list, and I can't quite think of any other winger that absolutely has to be added. There are quite a few worthy D-Men and especially goaltenders. Let's not waste our time on the likes of Alfredsson and Leclair, please.

I have LeClair over Alfredsson.

 

[ted2019]

On vacation.

So just real quick - Elias was the leading playoff scorer of the 2000-2009 decade. Obviously 3 trips to the finals helps but still worth noting.

Elias was in my top 10.

 

[ted2019]

Voted. It went roughly like this :

Not an NHL Winger
___
NHL Winger.

Seriously. None of the NHL Wingers (at least in that group) HAS to be on our Final list, and I can't quite think of any other winger that absolutely has to be added. There are quite a few worthy D-Men and especially goaltenders. Let's not waste our time on the likes of Alfredsson and Leclair, please.

This round's breakdown for me is this:
G: 2
F: 6
D: 2

 

[trentmccleary]

On vacation.

So just real quick - Elias was the leading playoff scorer of the 2000-2009 decade. Obviously 3 trips to the finals helps but still worth noting.

Here's how Elias performed verses his 1990's draftee cohort.
0.5 GPG and 1.00 PPG are full postseasons in which the players finished with those ratios.

Player	GP	G	A	Pts	GPG	PPG	.5 GPG	1.00 PPG
Forsberg	151	64	107	171	0.42	1.13	2	9
Lindros	53	24	33	57	0.45	1.08	3	3
Zetterberg	137	57	63	120	0.42	0.88	4	6
Alfie	124	51	49	100	0.41	0.81	5	6
St.Louis	107	42	48	90	0.39	0.84	4	4
Kovalev	123	45	55	100	0.37	0.81	4	3
Kariya	46	16	23	39	0.35	0.85	1	4
H.Sedin	105	23	55	78	0.22	0.74	1	4
Naslund	52	14	22	36	0.27	0.69	0	2
Iginla	81	37	31	68	0.46	0.84	5	3
Elias	162	45	80	125	0.28	0.77	3	5
Datsyuk	157	42	71	113	0.27	0.72	2	4
Thornton	179	31	102	133	0.17	0.74	0	3
B.Richards	146	37	68	105	0.25	0.72	3	3
Lecavalier	75	26	30	56	0.35	0.75	1	2
Hossa	205	52	97	149	0.25	0.73	1	1
Marleau	177	68	52	120	0.38	0.68	4	2
D.Sedin	102	25	46	71	0.25	0.70	0	3
Arnott	122	32	41	73	0.26	0.60	0	0
Doan	55	15	13	28	0.27	0.51	1	1
Whitney	108	21	32	53	0.19	0.49	0	0

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

This table breaks down each individual playoff series they ever played by PPG.
It's currently sorted by the % of playoff series' in which they were 1.00 PPG or higher.

Player	Series	1.20+	1.00-1.19	.67-.86	.4-.6	0.40<	>1.00	<.60
Forsberg	27	12	7	4	1	3	0.70	0.15
Lindros	12	4	3	2	2	1	0.58	0.25
Zetterberg	24	4	7	5	5	3	0.46	0.33
Alfie	24	6	5	6	3	4	0.46	0.29
St.Louis	18	4	4	4	4	2	0.44	0.33
Kovalev	22	3	6	4	6	3	0.41	0.41
Kariya	10	3	1	1	4	0	0.40	0.40
H.Sedin	18	2	5	4	4	3	0.39	0.39
Naslund	8	1	2	0	3	2	0.38	0.63
Iginla	14	2	3	6	2	1	0.36	0.21
Elias	29	3	7	9	3	7	0.34	0.34
Datsyuk	29	3	7	6	7	6	0.34	0.45
Thornton	31	4	6	9	8	4	0.32	0.39
B.Richards	25	3	5	6	4	7	0.32	0.44
Lecavalier	13	2	2	4	2	3	0.31	0.38
Hossa	37	5	6	10	10	6	0.30	0.43
Marleau	31	5	4	7	5	7	0.29	0.39
D.Sedin	18	3	2	5	6	2	0.28	0.44
Arnott	23	0	3	6	7	7	0.13	0.61
Doan	11	1	0	4	2	4	0.09	0.55
Whitney	19	0	1	5	4	9	0.05	0.68

[TBODY] [/TBODY]