Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 17

[seventieslord]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to @seventieslord
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, May 7th at midnight and continue through Sunday, May 9th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, May 10th.


Vote 9 Candidates

• Billy Smith
• Brendan Shanahan
• Carey Price
• Carl Brewer
• Daniel Alfredsson
• Duke Keats
• Emile "Butch" Bouchard
• Frantisek Pospisil
• Harry "Hap" Holmes
• Jacques Lemaire
• John LeClair
• Lorne "Gump" Worsley
  
• Michel Goulet
• Rob Blake
• Yvan Cournoyer

Click to read more...

 

[ResilientBeast]

Nice to see Keats, but he's going to have to wait until Foyston shows up IMO

Pospisil will likely make my top 4 immediately.

 

[ted2019]

Surprised to see Johnny Vermont up here. Also, are we in the #185 range now?

 

[ResilientBeast]

Surprised to see Johnny Vermont up here. Also, are we in the #185 range now?

Looks like we're somewhere around 180

 

[ted2019]

Looks like we're somewhere around 180

Thought so. I forgot that LeClair 6 really strong years before his back went on him. AS selections 1,1,2,2,2,3

 

[ted2019]

I'm seeing for me that Brewer/Price will be my #1 this round. Blake should be top 3 and Lemaire could be #4. Other then that, I have no clue.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Thought so. I forgot that LeClair 6 really strong years before his back went on him. AS selections 1,1,2,2,2,3

Leclair and Goulet should be a good comparison.

 

[The Macho King]

Leclair and Goulet should be a good comparison.

Similar peaks from an AS perspective, Goulet has him crushed on longevity, no?

 

[MXD]

Similar peaks from an AS perspective, Goulet has him crushed on longevity, no?

Ultimately, he does, but that's not a significant advantage.
However, Leclair's generationnal comparables tended to have better longevity than Goulet's for multiple reasons (there are exceptions, I know), so that would probably increase Goulet's advantage here.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Heck,

I'd like Dunderdale (if he made the aggregate list) to show up before we talk about Keats in depth

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

LeClair is an incredibly easy NR for me. This forum rightfully ranked him under Alfredsson and a bunch of unavailable wingers last time we looked at this project

39	Brendan Shanahan	6'3"	220	1969		1987-2009	Canada
40	Cecil "Babe" Dye	5'8"	150	1898	1962	1919-1931	Canada
41	Michel Goulet	6'1"	195	1960		1978-1994	Canada
42	Marián Hossa	6'1"	210	1979		1997-present	Slovakia
43	Roy Conacher	6'2"	175	1916	1984	1938-1952	Canada
44	Vladimir Krutov	5'9"	195	1960	2012	1977-1996	Russia/USSR
45	Patrik Eliáš	6'1"	195	1976		1995-2016	Czechia
46	Yvan Cournoyer	5'7"	178	1943		1963-1979	Canada
47	Daniel Alfredsson	5'11"	196	1972		1995-2014	Sweden
48	Alexander Yakushev	6'2"	198	1947		1963-1983	Russia/USSR
49	John LeClair	6'3"	226	1969		1990-2007	USA
50	Gordie Drillon	6'2"	178	1913	1985	1936-1943	Canada

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Krutov and Hossa have had their stock rightfully increase over the years, so their rises makes sense, but I really don't see that we underrated LeClair.

Funny, I'm usually the one advocating for LeClair, but that's when he's compared to the likes of Keith Tkachuk, not the guys we're talking about now (or should be talking about - where is Roy Conacher?)

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Duke Keats and Frantsek Pospisil are the most interesting of the new candidates to me. Pospisil is the last "must add" of the non-NHL Europeans for me, so I'm happy he showed up. I'm not quite sure if it's his time yet - I mean, he's obviously really hard to compare to the rest of these guys.

The centers project seemed to rank the early era centers - Fredrickson, then Keats, with Foyston just missing the cut. Dunderdale not really close. I think that's probably correct. I'll repost a bunch on Keats this round.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Duke Keats and Frantsek Pospisil are the most interesting of the new candidates to me. Pospisil is the last "must add" of the non-NHL Europeans for me, so I'm happy he showed up. I'm not quite sure if it's his time yet - I mean, he's obviously really hard to compare to the rest of these guys.

The centers project seemed to rank the early era centers - Fredrickson, then Keats, with Foyston just missing the cut. Dunderdale not really close. I think that's probably correct. I'll repost a bunch on Keats this round.

The issue for me with Keats over Foyston is unfortunately because Keats missed what would be his peak years due to WWI and then playing the Big-4.

Dunderdale feels like a miss there when compared to Keats, I have a hard time seeing that much of a gap between them

 

[ted2019]

LeClair is an incredibly easy NR for me. This forum rightfully ranked him under Alfredsson and a bunch of unavailable wingers last time we looked at this project

39	Brendan Shanahan	6'3"	220	1969		1987-2009	Canada
40	Cecil "Babe" Dye	5'8"	150	1898	1962	1919-1931	Canada
41	Michel Goulet	6'1"	195	1960		1978-1994	Canada
42	Marián Hossa	6'1"	210	1979		1997-present	Slovakia
43	Roy Conacher	6'2"	175	1916	1984	1938-1952	Canada
44	Vladimir Krutov	5'9"	195	1960	2012	1977-1996	Russia/USSR
45	Patrik Eliáš	6'1"	195	1976		1995-2016	Czechia
46	Yvan Cournoyer	5'7"	178	1943		1963-1979	Canada
47	Daniel Alfredsson	5'11"	196	1972		1995-2014	Sweden
48	Alexander Yakushev	6'2"	198	1947		1963-1983	Russia/USSR
49	John LeClair	6'3"	226	1969		1990-2007	USA
50	Gordie Drillon	6'2"	178	1913	1985	1936-1943	Canada

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Krutov and Hossa have had their stock rightfully increase over the years, so their rises makes sense, but I really don't see that we underrated LeClair.

Funny, I'm usually the one advocating for LeClair, but that's when he's compared to the likes of Keith Tkachuk, not the guys we're talking about now (or should be talking about - where is Roy Conacher?)

I had Conacher at #176 in my voting. At this rate, my original voting is way off then the actual list going in.

 

[ted2019]

Michel Goulet from Velociraptor's Bio:

- Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1998.
- 8-time top-10 in All-Star LW Voting (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 9, 10)
- 3 acknowledgements for the First NHL All-Star Team - (1984, 1986, 1987)
- 2 acknowledgements for the Second NHL All-Star Team - (1983, 1988)
- scored 548 goals and 604 assists for 1152 points in 1089 games, adding 825 penalty minutes.
- scored 39 goals and 39 assists for 78 points in 92 playoff games, adding 110 penalty minutes.

Top 10 Finishes:
Goals - 6x - (2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9)
Assists - 1x - (8)
Points - 4x - (3, 8, 8, 9)
Plus/Minus - 2x - (4, 10)
Power Play Goals - 4x - (2, 2, 2, 7)
Shorthanded Goals - 2x - (1, 9)

10 Best Percentage Seasons (Vs. #2):
96, 89, 85, 74, 71, 70, 56, 53, 50, 50

Voting Record
Selke Trophy:
8th (83-84), 22nd (81-82)
Hart Trophy:
7th (83-84), 12th (84-85)

Joe Pelletier said:

One would have to wonder how good Michel Goulet would have been playing a full season on Wayne Gretzky's left wing. Gretzky never had a regular left winger until the arrival of Esa Tikkanen, but in Canada Cup tournaments Goulet was often Wayne's left side partner. He played on a line in the 1984 Canada Cup with Gretzky and Rick Middleton. In 1987 Goulet is often the forgotten man on Team Canada's top line of Goulet-Gretzky-Mario Lemieux. Goulet provided offense but was more or less the defensive safety valve as well.

Legends of Hockey

One of the most opportunistic scorers in league history, Michel Goulet was an elite left winger during his 15-year career. He managed to score at least 20 goals in all but his last NHL year and once enjoyed a stretch of seven consecutive seasons with at least 40 goals. Although he wasn't considered a rough player, Goulet wasn't intimidated by aggressive play on the part of the opposition.

Just prior to the trading deadline in March 1990, Goulet was sent to the Chicago Blackhawks. He adjusted well to his first new team in a decade, but this change required his veteran poise; he was now playing on a tight-checking team that required him to play a defensive role while providing timely scoring.

Greatest Hockey Legends

Michel Goulet was probably the most consistently high scoring left winger in the National Hockey League throughout the entire 1980s. The native of Peribonka, Quebec did this under the intense pressure of the hometown Quebecois fans, as most of his career was spent with the Quebec Nordiques.

Though known as a goal scorer, Michel started out slowly in the NHL. He concentrated on improving his defense and doing small things to help his team win. He would quickly blossom into one of the league's brightest shooters.

Who's Who in Hockey

If ever there was a high-scoring forward who remained obscure for ages, it was Michel Goulet. Despite his scoring accomplishments, Goulet was hidden from the media centres because he spent much of his career in Quebec City, the smallest town in the NHL.

Deadly around the net, Goulet was a key member of successful Quebec Nordiques teams which included offensive ace Peter Stastny.


Quotes regarding Goulet's defensive prowess and hard-work in the corners:

John Brophy said:

"Goulet was eighteen when he came, and he didn't speak a word of English, but he was a super player. He did everything he was asked to do. He became not only one of the best offensive players in the NHL, he became one of the best defensive wingers as well.

Ultimate Hockey

Goulet was a strong skater with a superb shot, who threw his body around and played well defensively. Goulet was the complete package.

Hockey! The world of the pros, Michael A. Berge

Quebec's Michel Goulet deserves all the attention he can get. Goulet is a very versatile player, one who devotes much time and effort to checking, penalty-killing and being a good defensive presence.

A Century of Hockey Heroes: 100 of the Greatest All-Time Stars

Goulet was traded to Chicago and he continued to be a productive, defensively sound winger in the Windy City ...

The Montreal Gazette - Apr. 12, 1986

He's only 25 years old and he's scored 50 or more goals for four consecutive seasons. He's also French-Canadian. It's not often said about him, but at his age, Michel Goulet is the most prolific goal scorer in the history of French Canada.

He is the unappreciated and unloved superstar...

He is one of the fastest skaters in the league, he is one of the best left wingers along the boards, yet he gets no credit for it. He can even fight. Last season in Hartford he broke his hand trashing rugged XXXXX XXXXXX. Then he played the following month with his hand in a cast and he still scored goals.​

The Leader-Post - Oct. 27, 1982

Michel Goulet's goal output has risen steadily in his three seasons with Quebec and the hard-working left winger appears destined for another season of improvement with the National Hockey League's Nordiques.

Goulet's relentless work has not gone unnoticed by Quebec head coach Michel Bergeron.

"He is a complete player with a great attitude, he knows the value of a good pass and he is a great team player."​

Boston Globe - Jan. 5, 1984

Quebec's hottest player is Michel Goulet, who may be "one of the most underrated players in the game," as his coach, Michel Bergeron, says, but certainly not by the Bruins.

"He's underrated because he executes as well on defense as on offense," says Bergeron​

Chicago Sun-Times - Oct. 30, 1990

Wayne Presley is probably an underrated defensive player. And Michel Goulet always was a smart defensive player.​

Observer-Reporter - May 29, 1992

Neither did linemate Michel Goulet who played a good defensive game for 60 minutes ..​

Chicago Sun-Times - Apr. 13, 1990

Michel Goulet, who had sat since Game 1, celebrated his return to the lineup by playing a strong all-around game and scoring the Hawks' fourth goal. ...​

Chicago Sun-Times - Jan. 22, 1991

Keenan, while happy with Goulet's defensive work, challenged him to get .
​

​

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Norris/All-Star records of available defensemen:

I'm using Norris records for Carl Brewer and Rob Blake.

I'm using All-Star voting for Butch Bouchard.

This time, I'm showing competition for every Top 4 finish.

Butch Bouchard: 1*, 2, 2^, 3*, 6, 8

43-44: 3rd (behind Babe Pratt and Earl Seibert, ahead of Dit Clapper) - *WAR YEAR*
44-45: 1st (ahead of Flash Hollett, Babe Pratt, and Glen Harmon) - *WAR YEAR*
45-46: 2nd (behind Jack Crawford, ahead of Ken Reardon and Jack Stewart) - ^PARTIAL WAR YEAR^
46-47: 2nd (behind Ken Reardon, ahead of Quackenbush and Stewart)
47-48: 6th
53-54: 8th

Carl Brewer: 2, 3, 4, 6, 6, 9, 9

59-60: 9th
60-61: 6th
61-62: 4th (behind Harvey, Pilote, and Talbot)
62-63: 2nd (behind Pilote, ahead of Horton and Vasko)
63-64: 9th
64-65: 6th

• Note Brewer left the NHL from 65-66 to 68-69 due largely to disputes with Punch Imlach. His efforts in Europe were strong enough to be inducted into the Finnish Hockey Hall of Fame in 2003.

69-70: 3rd (behind Orr and Park)

Rob Blake: 1, 3, 3, 4, 5, 8

97-98: 1st (ahead of Lidstrom and Pronger)
99-00: 3rd (behind Pronger and Lidstrom)
00-01: 4th (behind Lidstrom, Bourque, and Stevens)
01-02: 3rd (behind Lidstrom and Chelios)
02-03: 5th
03-04: 8th

____________________

Comments:

• Rob Blake has an impressive 4-5 year stretch against some really tough competition.
• Carl Brewer's record isn't quite as good as Blake, but he missed some prime years playing overseas. It should also be noted that he was considered the #1 defenseman of the Leafs team that won the Cups in 1962 and 1963. Tim Horton looks to have taken over as #1 (at least in the eyes of the voters!) starting in 1964 (the 3rd Cup in a row).
• Hard to know what to make of Butch Bouchard's record - 3 of his 4 years of strong All-Star recognition happened in a depleted NHL. Even 1946-47 probably wasn't up to full strength yet, due to lack of development among young players during the war.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Michel Goulet from Velociraptor's Bio:

- Inducted into the Hockey Hall of Fame in 1998.
- 8-time top-10 in All-Star LW Voting (1, 1, 1, 2, 2, 3, 9, 10)
- 3 acknowledgements for the First NHL All-Star Team - (1984, 1986, 1987)
- 2 acknowledgements for the Second NHL All-Star Team - (1983, 1988)
- scored 548 goals and 604 assists for 1152 points in 1089 games, adding 825 penalty minutes.
- scored 39 goals and 39 assists for 78 points in 92 playoff games, adding 110 penalty minutes.

Top 10 Finishes:
Goals - 6x - (2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9)
Assists - 1x - (8)
Points - 4x - (3, 8, 8, 9)
Plus/Minus - 2x - (4, 10)
Power Play Goals - 4x - (2, 2, 2, 7)
Shorthanded Goals - 2x - (1, 9)

10 Best Percentage Seasons (Vs. #2):
96, 89, 85, 74, 71, 70, 56, 53, 50, 50

Voting Record
Selke Trophy:
8th (83-84), 22nd (81-82)
Hart Trophy:
7th (83-84), 12th (84-85)

Joe Pelletier said:

One would have to wonder how good Michel Goulet would have been playing a full season on Wayne Gretzky's left wing. Gretzky never had a regular left winger until the arrival of Esa Tikkanen, but in Canada Cup tournaments Goulet was often Wayne's left side partner. He played on a line in the 1984 Canada Cup with Gretzky and Rick Middleton. In 1987 Goulet is often the forgotten man on Team Canada's top line of Goulet-Gretzky-Mario Lemieux. Goulet provided offense but was more or less the defensive safety valve as well.

Legends of Hockey

One of the most opportunistic scorers in league history, Michel Goulet was an elite left winger during his 15-year career. He managed to score at least 20 goals in all but his last NHL year and once enjoyed a stretch of seven consecutive seasons with at least 40 goals. Although he wasn't considered a rough player, Goulet wasn't intimidated by aggressive play on the part of the opposition.

Just prior to the trading deadline in March 1990, Goulet was sent to the Chicago Blackhawks. He adjusted well to his first new team in a decade, but this change required his veteran poise; he was now playing on a tight-checking team that required him to play a defensive role while providing timely scoring.

Greatest Hockey Legends

Michel Goulet was probably the most consistently high scoring left winger in the National Hockey League throughout the entire 1980s. The native of Peribonka, Quebec did this under the intense pressure of the hometown Quebecois fans, as most of his career was spent with the Quebec Nordiques.

Though known as a goal scorer, Michel started out slowly in the NHL. He concentrated on improving his defense and doing small things to help his team win. He would quickly blossom into one of the league's brightest shooters.

Who's Who in Hockey

If ever there was a high-scoring forward who remained obscure for ages, it was Michel Goulet. Despite his scoring accomplishments, Goulet was hidden from the media centres because he spent much of his career in Quebec City, the smallest town in the NHL.

Deadly around the net, Goulet was a key member of successful Quebec Nordiques teams which included offensive ace Peter Stastny.


Quotes regarding Goulet's defensive prowess and hard-work in the corners:

John Brophy said:

"Goulet was eighteen when he came, and he didn't speak a word of English, but he was a super player. He did everything he was asked to do. He became not only one of the best offensive players in the NHL, he became one of the best defensive wingers as well.

Ultimate Hockey

Goulet was a strong skater with a superb shot, who threw his body around and played well defensively. Goulet was the complete package.

Hockey! The world of the pros, Michael A. Berge

Quebec's Michel Goulet deserves all the attention he can get. Goulet is a very versatile player, one who devotes much time and effort to checking, penalty-killing and being a good defensive presence.

A Century of Hockey Heroes: 100 of the Greatest All-Time Stars

Goulet was traded to Chicago and he continued to be a productive, defensively sound winger in the Windy City ...

The Montreal Gazette - Apr. 12, 1986

He's only 25 years old and he's scored 50 or more goals for four consecutive seasons. He's also French-Canadian. It's not often said about him, but at his age, Michel Goulet is the most prolific goal scorer in the history of French Canada.

He is the unappreciated and unloved superstar...

He is one of the fastest skaters in the league, he is one of the best left wingers along the boards, yet he gets no credit for it. He can even fight. Last season in Hartford he broke his hand trashing rugged XXXXX XXXXXX. Then he played the following month with his hand in a cast and he still scored goals.​

The Leader-Post - Oct. 27, 1982

Michel Goulet's goal output has risen steadily in his three seasons with Quebec and the hard-working left winger appears destined for another season of improvement with the National Hockey League's Nordiques.

Goulet's relentless work has not gone unnoticed by Quebec head coach Michel Bergeron.

"He is a complete player with a great attitude, he knows the value of a good pass and he is a great team player."
Boston Globe - Jan. 5, 1984

Quebec's hottest player is Michel Goulet, who may be "one of the most underrated players in the game," as his coach, Michel Bergeron, says, but certainly not by the Bruins.

"He's underrated because he executes as well on defense as on offense," says Bergeron​

Chicago Sun-Times - Oct. 30, 1990

Wayne Presley is probably an underrated defensive player. And Michel Goulet always was a smart defensive player.​

Observer-Reporter - May 29, 1992

Neither did linemate Michel Goulet who played a good defensive game for 60 minutes ..​

Chicago Sun-Times - Apr. 13, 1990

Michel Goulet, who had sat since Game 1, celebrated his return to the lineup by playing a strong all-around game and scoring the Hawks' fourth goal. ...​

Chicago Sun-Times - Jan. 22, 1991

Keenan, while happy with Goulet's defensive work, challenged him to get .
​

I was going to wait for @Hockey Outsider to post his VsX tables, because I like using them as a starting point (and just a starting point!) for scoring line forwards. But it should be noted when looking at the overall numbers that Goulet has a few things in his advantage:

• He was the primary driver of his line's offense at even strength, usually playing with Dale Hunter, as Peter Stastny centered a different line. (On the other hand, I assume Goulet often played with Stastny on the PP)
• His Quebec Nordiques played in an era of heavy divisional play in the most defensive division in the NHL
• A large percentage of his points were goals - with 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9 vs just an 8th place finish in assists.
• He was a bit of a rarity in the 1980s, as a scoring line winger who was responsible defensively.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

on just a quick glance at goulet's hockey-ref, one thing i notice is he was a major force at ES for the first two years of his peak, then he becomes more powerplay reliant.

but his overall scoring is very solid, but for a spike year in '84 and a down year in '85. (if you averaged those two years' points, he would have finished 9th in '84 and 7th in '85—giving him a six year peak of 8, 9, 7, 11, 8, 9.)

Even Strength Goals

1982-83 NHL 43 (3rd)

1983-84 NHL 43 (4th)

1984-85 NHL 38 (6th)

1986-87 NHL 32 (6th)

Career NHL 353 (33rd)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Power Play Goals

1984-85 NHL 17 (2nd)

1985-86 NHL 28 (2nd)

1986-87 NHL 17 (7th)

1987-88 NHL 29 (2nd)

Career NHL 179 (28th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Goals

1982-83 NHL 57 (4th)

1983-84 NHL 56 (2nd)

1984-85 NHL 55 (4th)

1985-86 NHL 53 (5th)

1986-87 NHL 49 (6th)

1987-88 NHL 48 (9th)

Career NHL 548 (30th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Points

1982-83 NHL 105 (8th)

1983-84 NHL 122 (3rd)

1986-87 NHL 96 (8th)

1987-88 NHL 106 (9th)

Career NHL 1153 (55th)

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(1985: 20th / 1986: 11th)

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PPG	SHG	GW	EVP	PPP	SHP	S	S%	Awards
1982-83	22	QUE	NHL	80	57	48	105	30	51	43	10	4	4	38	8	2	256	22.3	AS-2
1983-84	23	QUE	NHL	75	56	66	122	62	76	43	11	2	16	46	19	1	239	23.4	AS-1,Hart-7,Selke-8

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

vs

Season	Age	Tm	Lg	GP	G	A	PTS	+/-	PIM	EV	PPG	SHG	GW	EVP	PPP	SHP	S	S%	Awards
1984-85	24	QUE	NHL	69	55	40	95	10	55	38	17	0	5	29	11	0	260	21.2	AS-3,Hart-12
1985-86	25	QUE	NHL	75	53	51	104	7	64	25	28	0	3	28	23	0	244	21.7	AS-1
1986-87	26	QUE	NHL	75	49	47	96	-10	61	32	17	0	6	26	21	0	276	17.8	AS-1,Byng-22
1987-88	27	QUE	NHL	80	48	58	106	-31	56	18	29	1	4	33	25	0	284	16.9	AS-2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I had Conacher at #176 in my voting. At this rate, my original voting is way off then the actual list going in.

I had Conacher at 193.

But talk about off....

I have five players in this group in the top 150. Four others I didn't have on my original list. And three others between 200-220.

Probably had Goulet & Lemaire rated higher than anyone else.

 

[MXD]

At this point the very biggest gripe about Bouchard isnt even that he was something of a War Years star, but rather that he wasn't his team best D-Man after the war.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

Billy Smith from the HOH Goalies project

I've never been the biggest advocate for Smith, but we should at least discuss why the HOH Top Goalies project rated him fairly high:

21	Cecil "Tiny" Thompson	5'10"	160	1903	1981	1928-1941	Canada
22	George Hainsworth	5'6"	150	1895	1950	1923-1937	Canada
23	Billy Smith	5'10"	185	1950		1971-1989	Canada
24	Hugh Lehman	5'8"	168	1885	1961	1908-1928	Canada
25	Grant Fuhr	5'10"	201	1962		1981-2000	Canada
26	Lorne "Gump" Worsley	5'7"	180	1929	2007	1952-1974	Canada

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

(Note: Lehman's stock has skyrocketed since the goalies project, and IMO this is a good thing)

Smith was discussed a fair amount in the goalies project. Here are some points:

First, there were tables posted by @ContrarianGoaltender here - Round 2, Vote 5 (HOH Top Goaltenders) - that got destroyed by the site migration. But seventieslord summarized them like this:

if you weigh it based on the number of minutes he played per season, Smith was, on average, 12 sv% points above the league average during his career.

Later in the thread, a few of us seem to have concluded that I seem to have concluded based off links to Dr. No's site that Smith's backups had similar save percentage numbers to his own, but again, the tables were destroyed in the migration.

__________

From a discussion of Smith vs Fuhr. QPQ preferred Smith (at least back in 2014):

I suppose the major crux of my argument would be that the Islanders did not find success in the playoffs with any other goaltender after 1975 (Smith's first - and probably only bad playoff) despite occasionally giving Resch and Melanson several games, whereas the Oilers did well without Fuhr. From 1983-1987, Andy Moog was 18-5 in the playoffs for the Edmonton Oilers, which is to say that he pretty much won every game that was not the 1983 Stanley Cup Finals. And then they trade Moog for Ranford, and Ranford wins a Stanley Cup and Conn Smythe. I mean, you don't see Chico Resch walking around with that on his resume. I think Smith had a bigger role in the Islanders dynasty than Fuhr did in the Oilers dynasty.

Two responses to QPQ's post:

I agree with you that Smith was a bigger part of the Islanders dynasty than Fuhr was of the Edmonton dynasty. I thought that even before you showed me Moog's record with the Oilers in the playoffs (which really drives the point home in a big way).

But on the other hand, Fuhr did more outside of the dynasty right? Whether it was starting two Canada Cups or simply being an above average NHL starter for a period outside the dynasty years. Smith is being considered pretty much solely based on what he did in the playoffs, isn't he? Whereas Fuhr (who I agree wasn't as important in the playoffs to his dynasty as Smith) at least did something of note outside the playoffs.

Maybe ranking the two of them back to back is the way to go, though that feels like a cop out.

Sure, but the counterargument is that the Islanders team offence had little success outside of the Cup years, while the Oilers were dominant in scoring throughout the decade. Yes, other goalies in Edmonton with similar levels of support also won games, but it can be argued very easily that no other goalie in New York got anything near the level of playoff support that Billy Smith did from 1980 to 1983.

Here are the Islanders' goals per game and goals against average in the playoffs, all adjusted based on the regular season average to a scoring environment of 3.6 goals per game:

What's amazing is that the Islanders had a below-average playoff offence in every single playoff season of Billy Smith's career, with the exception of the four Cup years when they suddenly became Edmonton Oilers-level dominant. It seems awfully hard to say that had much to do with Smith's goaltending. In contrast, Chico Resch had a career playoff GAA of 2.49 in New York, a better rate than Smith, but his win/loss record was only 17-17 because he never got much offensive support. I see no reason at all to believe that Resch couldn't win a Cup if his team was scoring 5 goals per game in front of him. It is notable that the Islanders' goal prevention was very consistent from 1978 to 1987, and what made the difference was almost entirely based on their goalscoring.

Compare that to the Oilers, who were above league average in scoring in every playoff season from 1982 to 1990 except for 1989 (same average-adjusted stats to the same 3.60 scoring level as above):

Ranford won the Conn Smythe in 1990, but he still got a ton of offensive support in doing it. The Oilers were pretty consistent both offensively and defensively throughout the 1980s, making it very unsurprising that they won with different goalies in net.

I don't think either Smith or Fuhr were crucial to their team's dynasties. Smith seems to get a lot more credit for his contributions in New York, but unless somebody is able to prove he was unusually clutch or he majorly helped his team offensively it still looks to me like he was a major beneficiary of circumstance in that he happened to be the goalie in the early '80s when for four years Trottier & co. scored goals like Gretzky & co. I think it is quite possible that Smith was still more important to the Islanders' dynasty than Fuhr, but I think looking just at other goalies' results overstates the gap, and overall I am leaning towards ranking Fuhr ahead of Smith.

Two more pro-Smith posts:

I've watched nothing but Islanders games from that era the past few days - chiefly the 1982 and 1983 Stanley Cup Finals. I'm not prepared to present a meaningful report, though I don't think a couple extra games will change what I've seen so far.

Let's get this out of the way right now. I always default to the view of a scout or a coach when watching a game. I sat and watched and took notes on things as if I had never seen these players before ever (that #99 on Edmonton can play, watch out for him in the next draft...). Let me say this right now, because I had my doubts going in, Billy Smith is a very good goaltender.

Now, unfortunately, by the time I looked at the game analytically, goaltending had already evolved into what it has today. Cookie cutter. Watching these "pure" goalies from before the butterfly proliferated play is a treat. It's no wonder it's definitive who was the top tier and who was the bottom, there were good goalies and bad goalies. Just like there were good centers and bad centers, good defensemen and bad defensemen. Those elements still exist today, except all the goalies are basically the same. And moreover, the worst ones seem to end up winning. That's for another time...

So, I said that to say this: I didn't grow up in the era in which these goalies developed. I don't have that first-hand experience of the evolution of the position. Killion could probably do a better job pointing out the technical aspects of what I'm looking at with the old guard of net guardians. So I fell back on fundamental principles. Some say "positioning" - I say, "kind of..." ...the thing I look for is anticipation. I love a goalie that reads a play well, show me a goalie that can do that and I'll show you a pro.

That's why I get into trouble sometimes being called a hypocrite because I rail against "system" goaltenders like Thomas and Giguere and Osgood but am a heavy proponent of Martin Brodeur.

Brodeur has maybe the best anticipation I've ever seen. His read of the play is phenom status. That's why he was successful. That's why he's successful now, that's why he was successful when he started. Stevens or no Stevens. DPE or not. Trap or no trap. Multiple eras, all success. All from anticipation.

Anyhow, Billy Smith's anticipation impressed me a great deal. He's not flashy (as C1958 alluded to), he's not a gumby in the nets. It's really terrific and so easy to appreciate the different styles that clashed in the 80's there. The Oilers are a roller hockey team. It's up and back, here and turnover and back, and score and backhand pass and no-look and all this...it's all excitement. With the Islanders, it's all very deliberate. Controlled breakout, three men back at all times (sometimes you feel like they're playing with an extra one...every time the camera pans over you're thinking "ok, I think I saw four Islanders back that way, this should be 1 on 1" and then they pan over and sure enough: it's always two. Always. It was uncanny).

Billy Smith is great at anticipating. His saves don't look amazing to anyone not paying close attention. But he tracks the puck so well and understands what kind of shot is coming and reacts. Some goaltenders from that era "throw a glove" at it and hope for the best. Smith put his glove in the right spot and made a save. I was very impressed. He catches it and quickly keeps the play moving to a d-man, they go D to D to ward off the forecheck and they're off. Only after it's sure that safe possession has been maintained does Bryan Trottier or Butch Goring or Anders Kallur leave the zone.

Smith is a fine skater and a fine goaltender.

Now with that said, I'll still take Fuhr over him for reasons already mentioned. Smith was not exposed to the elements on Long Island. This is what I always talk about, "don't let the stats create the narrative...the story unfolded, now see if the face-value numbers back it up and if they don't, something is amiss..." As we see by the style of play and the success of other goalies that played for the Isles during that time, the Isles were gonna make it work to some degree regardless. Smith was not a liability to the team though like, say, Osgood was to Detroit (can it, Wings fans, we know, he was the greatest and it's a conspiracy and the league is out to get him, we know... ). Or even if not a liability, a weak link. The weakest. There, that's better than liability. Less hate mail that way. Smith isn't that. He's very much a positive influence and a major cog in that dynasty.

This changes for me, not that Smith is over Fuhr...no. That's not gonna happen. That's incorrect, I feel. However, it changes that Smith will get his due from me sooner rather than later. I was feeling out as to how close to the "cliff" (40) Smith is going to get before I finally bend. That won't be the case anymore. This was a good goalie in a good situation. As much as I like to support goalies that out-performed backups and were on bad teams and weren't protected with left wing locks and neutral zone traps and kitties barring doors...there's no reason to discount Billy Smith like some of the other system goalies that will probably come up at the tail end of this project.

Sorry for the long post, I didn't want to discuss all this much yet, but it'll save me from making a longer post when my film work is done I suppose.

I want make it clear once more though...I don't think we should be prepared to put him on the list yet. But this isn't a goalie we should let sit and wait around for too terribly long either. Honestly, I was wondering if he was top-35 before I did this homework. Top-30 is no longer a question for me.

You called? .... and yes, Billy Smith was a tremendous goalie, a real Money Player. Mentally tough, played the position aggressively with a mean streak and never say die attitude. Excellent skater as you mentioned, technically sound when it came to playing the angles, no fear & would as called for read the players body language, lie of the puck on the blade of his stick which was/is a dead giveaway as to what the guys likely about to try on. Be it a snap, wrister, slapshot or deke, possible pass to a team mate or whatever.

Your taught how to read these things. Move towards the shooter well outside of the paint on a longer shot using the blue line or centre ice red line paint markings on the boards to the left or right using your posts as guides; straight out if the shooters at centre. If a deke, you'll read it early as per the lay of the puck on the guys blade, stick straight out as opposed to left or right depending on how he shoots. Economy of movement, giving them nothing to shoot at. You wont have to make "sensational saves" as the puck will either go wide, wind up in your catcher, right on your pads, stick or wherever, you know its going wide or youve got it, and thereafter its a matter of rebound control & whenever possible instantaneous & immediate transition back to the rush out of your zone, catching the opponents stunned, on there heels, deep in your own zone chasing your forwards, in Smiths case some serious skaters who could really fly like Nystrom back down the ice.

Communication with ones defenceman & forwards critical, and I mean seriously important, telling them to clear bodies from the shooting lane so you can see the puck and doing it yourself if required with your stick, inside your crease or well outside of it. Though your job is to prevent goals, a guy like Smith and a few others kicked it up a notch (Plante was really the fore-runner to this philosophy) whereby they were also fully cognizant of conversion & transition through complete rebound control. Not enough to just "block" or just "stop" the puck, its how you do it, subtle angulations of the blocker, pad, stick, re-directing it whenever possible right onto the tape of a waiting team mate & training them to expect it, a rush, wide open breakout & or breakaway from the goal line back out your objective as a netminder.

An analogy would be the axiom Coaches tell players, as in "dont watch your pretty pass, go & get to where your supposed to be, where the pucks going". Some guys, Palmateer, Fuhr again, because they were always getting caught & had to rely on reflexes a lot more would indeed deliberately sensationalize saves, like theyd just caught the Hope Diamond with their GM12. As a one time goalie myself I was never impressed with such nonsense but I digress...

Skating, stickwork, angles, being ultra aggressive, almost playing it like a 3rd Defenceman or even a Rover. Jumping on the puck & stickhandling out to the blue-line, playing out of the paint, not a risk taker per se' but a beyond effective weapon going from reverse to forward. Implicitly understanding the angles, and I mean all of them from the far blue to the centre ice red line & your own blue line to your crossbar; hugging the posts when plays behind the net and looking through the mesh, stick flush to the ice, poking, slashing, barking out orders & making life a living Hell for anyone who dares come within 3 ft of you let alone wanders into the crease.

That was Smith, whereas Fuhr played it deeper, was more pure goaltending, acrobatic as he had to be sitting that far back, sensational with the catcher, toe save in full splits etc, fun to watch, but not nearly as aggressive as Smith, who I rank right up there with the best of the best, a real "team goalie". I dont see the Isles winning multiple cups like that without that guy inbetween the pipes. He was a Monster Killer. Its really too bad that entire Dynasty & the terrific players are somewhat lost, sandwiched as they are between the Habs & Oilers.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

A large percentage of his points were goals - with 6 top 10 finishes in goals: 2, 4, 4, 5, 6, 9 vs just an 8th place finish in assists.

isn’t this fairly typical of a 80s winger? or maybe post-expansion wingers in general, with a few outlying exceptions?

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

isn’t this fairly typical of a 80s winger? or maybe post-expansion wingers in general, with a few outlying exceptions?

Yeah, it's fairly typical, though Goulet and Shanahan both look even more skewed than even Robitaille. Here's a post from about this stage of the wingers project: Round 2, Vote 9 (HOH Top Wingers)

Overall though, it's kind of an addendum to looking at these guys based off their finishes in "points" (like VsX does) - I tend to give small bonus points to guys who got more of their points as goals.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

VsX summary (1927-2020)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th	8th	9th	10th	7 YEAR	10 YEAR
Daniel Alfredsson	97.2	92.0	84.0	78.9	76.3	75.0	72.9	67.3	65.1	65.1	82.3	77.4
John LeClair	95.6	89.0	84.1	81.9	80.8	77.1	63.2	56.7	48.1	35.8	81.7	71.2
Michel Goulet	100.0	88.9	84.7	80.9	73.0	70.4	57.1	56.5	54.3	52.6	79.3	71.8
Brendan Shanahan	85.0	83.3	83.0	80.7	79.2	76.4	65.4	65.0	63.5	62.6	79.0	74.4
Jacques Lemaire	91.3	89.0	76.0	74.3	73.6	71.4	69.8	62.2	58.9	50.0	77.9	71.7
Yvan Cournoyer	81.3	81.1	80.2	76.1	76.0	73.3	71.4	61.2	57.1	57.1	77.1	71.5
Rob Blake	62.2	61.5	60.6	56.7	54.9	52.9	48.1	43.3	40.9	40.0	56.7	52.1
Carl Brewer	45.3	32.5	30.9	28.9	28.8	27.4	16.7	16.7	16.5	12.2	30.1	25.6
Butch Bouchard	43.6	28.3	25.0	24.3	20.0	19.7	19.0	18.0	17.4	16.7	25.7	23.2

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

A few comments:

• I didn't post Duke Keat's three years in the NHL; I figured that would be more misleading than informative.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Hart trophy (minimum 5% threshold)

Player	1st	2nd	3rd	4th	5th	6th	7th+	Total
Carey Price	1						1	2
Gump Worsley			1				1	2
John LeClair						1	1	2
Daniel Alfredsson					1			1

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

• Players who were eligible for the Hart, but never got a non-trivial number of votes - Blake, Bouchard, Brewer, Cournoyer, Goulet, Lemaire, Shanahan, Smith
• Players never eligible for the Hart - Holmes (effectively - just eligible for the Hart the last two years of his career), Keats (effectively - just the last two years of his career), Pospisil
• Not surprisingly, as we get farther down the list, we have fewer players who got a lot of attention for the Hart. (Off topic but we do have a few players with 3 seasons of Hart consideration who haven't come up yet - Kucherov, MacKinnon, Getzlaf, Giroux, and Naslund).