Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 11

[seventieslord]

Procedure

• You will be presented with ~15 players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list
• Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
• You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to @seventieslord
• Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
• The top-5 players will be added to The List

Eligible Voters

• Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 220 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
• Batis, BenchBrawl, bobholly39, buffalowing88, Dennis Bonvie, DN28, Dr John Carlson, Hockey Outsider, MXD, Professor What, ResilientBeast, seventieslord, tarheelhockey, ted2019, TheDevilMadeMe, Vilica, Weztex

Guidelines

• Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
• Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
• Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
• Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

House Rules

• Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
• We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates
  
• Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
• Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

The actual voting period will open up on Friday, March 12th at midnight and continue through Sunday, March 14th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, March 15th.


Vote 9 Candidates

• Alexei Kasatonov
• Billy Smith
• Dale Hawerchuk
• Ebbie Goodfellow
• Henrik Zetterberg
• Hooley Smith
• Jacques Laperriere
• Jan Suchy
• Johnny Bucyk
• Jonathan Toews
• Lionel Conacher
• Luc Robitaille
• Marian Hossa
• Mark Recchi
• Shea Weber

Click to read more...

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

First impression:

Seems like a good round to add some guys who've been around since last time.

Right now, I actually like our group's top 4 who didn't make it last round (Smith, Goodfellow, Weber, Laperriere) this round, though not quite in that order.

 

[ted2019]

Billy Smith was a money goalie.
Zetterberg/Hossa, bring it on!!!!!!!!
Already saying on to Toews. At least 1 to 2 rounds early for him.

 

[ted2019]

First impression:

Seems like a good round to add some guys who've been around since last time.

Right now, I actually like our group's top 4 who didn't make it last round (Smith, Goodfellow, Weber, Laperriere) this round, though not quite in that order.

I had Ebbie & Jacques going in last round. Hedman was early too me. I still think it's a round early for Hooley & Weber I'm on the fence about.

 

[ResilientBeast]

Billy Smith was a money goalie.
Zetterberg/Hossa, bring it on!!!!!!!!
Already saying on to Toews. At least 1 to 2 rounds early for him.

Then Bucyk is going to sit on the board for a while lol

Because it seems clear to me who was the better and more impactful guy

 

[The Macho King]

Zetterberg v. Toews is an interesting comparison point because they overlapped quite a bit. I think I lean toward Toews there but I could be convinced.

Robitaille is an interesting case. I lean pretty hard on no but I don't know how much weight to give "Best LW for like 7 years" when the LW position was horribly thin during that time.

Billy Smith... undeserved Smythe aside, this feels like a pretty clear dynasty pick but I'm interested to hear what others think.

 

[bobholly39]

Zetterberg v. Toews is an interesting comparison point because they overlapped quite a bit. I think I lean toward Toews there but I could be convinced.

Robitaille is an interesting case. I lean pretty hard on no but I don't know how much weight to give "Best LW for like 7 years" when the LW position was horribly thin during that time.

Billy Smith... undeserved Smythe aside, this feels like a pretty clear dynasty pick but I'm interested to hear what others think.

Surprising to see how close Toews is to Zetterberg in terms of games played. I was initially going to respond to you saying "yeah but Zetterberg has that whole longevity edge", but it's really not that big. 1082 to 943 games. That's not even 2 seasons.

I agree for Robitaille - I hate arguments like "best LW for so many years". That's cool and all - but it has to be considered in regards to competition at that position. We see similar arguments with Ovi with All-star ratings at LW position - that's great, but you have to consider competition is weaker than other positions. I'm very unsure about Robitaille - he has decent career numbers, goals especially - but that seems typical enough for an offensively minded winger in the era he played in. He didn't factor into any major awards ever (except for Calder), and has pretty average playoff numbers. Nothing that really jumps out to me, I think it's too early.

Billy Smith certainly benefits from dynasty - but so many Canadien players already voted in have too. So I think it's fine to give his playoff record extra attention due to it. He probably wasn't the absolute best choice for Smythe the year he won it - but 4 straight ups (5 straight finals) being as solid as he was as a #1 goalie - him getting 1 smythe isn't a bad trade-off for that record. He's definitely a contender for me near the top.

Marc Recchi - I had initially voted in him pretty high on my list. I might have had him #1 among this group at first glance - but I think I had him too high initially. I had him a bit as a comparable to Ron Francis. Never really factored in much into awards - but super solid consistency + longevity with very respectable career numbers. Playoffs as well. At first glance he doesn't make my top 5 here right now, but I want to look at him a bit more closely.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Billy Smith's playoff record is 88-36.

I'd assume that's the best record for a goaltender ever.

Not sure that there is much more to say about him.

 

[Theokritos]

Surprising to see how close Toews is to Zetterberg in terms of games played. I was initially going to respond to you saying "yeah but Zetterberg has that whole longevity edge", but it's really not that big. 1082 to 943 games. That's not even 2 seasons.

Zetterberg lost an NHL season due to the 04-05 lockout. He was also good enough to make the Swedish Olympic team before coming to the NHL, in 2001-02.

For international play, you can basically add another half season that Zetterberg has on Toews (73 games in World Championships, Olympics and World Cups vs 37).

 

[The Macho King]

Billy Smith's playoff record is 88-36.

I'd assume that's the best record for a goaltender ever.

Not sure that there is much more to say about him.

Gun to my head I would guess Dryden may have a better record.

Edit: Dryden is 80-32 for .714% win percentage.

Smith's comes out to .710%

I feel like with Smith, if he's going in it's for those 4 runs. He has the last non-voted Vezina, and the next season he has the Jennings (but he was 1st AS that Vezina run as well so I am fine calling this a legit win).

Other than that he doesn't have high AS finishes. I think his easiest comparable that we've discussed so far is Parent. Parent has the edge in regular season performance between the two I'd say, and was probably a bigger part of the Cup wins. Smith's Smythe... I mean I know we don't really second-guess the voters but Potvin feels like he should have won that one in a walk.

Five straight Finals appearances is impressive, but the guys in front of him were pretty damn good. I really don't know what to do with him - he never felt like a "great goaltender" to me, but rather the "right" goaltender. For instance - if he's here, I fail to see why Fuhr isn't? Kind of a similar situation except with an offensive focused team instead of a defensive focused one.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Gun to my head I would guess Dryden may have a better record.

Edit: Dryden is 80-32 for .714% win percentage.

Smith's comes out to .710%

I stand corrected.

 

[The Macho King]

I stand corrected.

I mean it isn't much of a difference, and Smith played quite a bit outside of the dynasty era, so you could still make the argument (while Dryden pretty much only played behind the powerhouse Habs and retired young).

 

[Professor What]

Kasatonov and Laperierre are starting to feel better to me. Still to see where I actually rank them, but they're much stronger candidates for me now. I agree with TDMM on the on the other three top four contenders from last round too. I like all of them a lot.

I'm really wondering how Bucyk originally appeared so early. I'm still not feeling him here. . I'm not feeling Toews either, but I also recognize that I might be in a minority in my view on him. I've long felt that he's overrated on the strength of the "Captain Serious" stuff. He and Zetterberg feel pretty close, and I'm not sure I see Zetterberg here either.

I agree that Robitaille's all-star voting record is probably a little deceptive. For his first couple of selections, it was him and Michel Goulet. That certainly looks good. But Kevin Stevens and Brian Bellows aren't the same level. Still, eight selections is nothing to be sneezed at. Put him at right wing, and he still gets some selections, but not eight, and my guess is one (if any) first team selection.

Smith is probably the most intriguing player to me. To me, his regular season performances say, meh, he's okay, but his playoff performances were something completely different. Yes, the dynasty thing helps him, obviously, but I just don't think he was the same player in the playoffs as in the regular season. A more modern comparison for me might be that he's a less extreme version of the same guy that Jonathan Quick has been. I'll certainly take Smith over Quick in the regular season, but that's the closest recent thing to the night and day difference between regular season and postseason that comes to mind. Point is, regular season Smith is a definite no to me, but then the playoff performances make him a "yeah, maybe."

 

[tarheelhockey]

The simple question with Smith is, how does he look if he plays for any team other than the Islanders?

Are we even considering him as part of this project if he plays for, say, the Flyers or Sabres of the same era? Those were also good teams which picked up a lot of regular season Ws, but it's hard to see Smith being called a top-200 player on those rosters.

Of course this isn't intended to say Smith shouldn't get credit for what he did with the Islanders -- he definitely should -- but there's a lot of context in how that all fell together.

 

[The Macho King]

The simple question with Smith is, how does he look if he plays for any team other than the Islanders?

Are we even considering him as part of this project if he plays for, say, the Flyers or Sabres of the same era? Those were also good teams which picked up a lot of regular season Ws, but it's hard to see Smith being called a top-200 player on those rosters.

Of course this isn't intended to say Smith shouldn't get credit for what he did with the Islanders -- he definitely should -- but there's a lot of context in how that all fell together.

You also have to consider on the other end - put the Flyers goaltender on the Islanders, are they winning 4 straight and getting to a fifth?

I don't know the answer to that - but his postseason performance has to have *some* weight. And maybe the conclusion is "literally put anyone in pads back there and they win" and that's fine - but I think that argument needs to be fleshed out.

 

[tarheelhockey]

You also have to consider on the other end - put the Flyers goaltender on the Islanders, are they winning 4 straight and getting to a fifth?

I don't know the answer to that - but his postseason performance has to have *some* weight. And maybe the conclusion is "literally put anyone in pads back there and they win" and that's fine - but I think that argument needs to be fleshed out.

That's an interesting point particularly in light of the Flyers transitioning from Peeters to Lindbergh during that period. It's conceivable that either of those guys could have won 4 Cups with a shot at a 5th behind that Islanders roster. It's also conceivable that either would have fallen short, which is really the core of Smith's argument here. Unlike a lot of other goalies, his career kind of boils down to a literal handful of key saves made in OT periods which created a legacy beyond what the rest of his portfolio would justify.

Also, as recently pointed out in another thread, Smith's legacy would be radically different if not for a completely random puckhandling flub by Randy Carlyle. One fluke play by one opposing player in one game, 180 feet away from Smith, changed the whole picture.

 

[Say Hey Kid]

That's an interesting point particularly in light of the Flyers transitioning from Peeters to Lindbergh during that period. It's conceivable that either of those guys could have won 4 Cups with a shot at a 5th behind that Islanders roster. It's also conceivable that either would have fallen short, which is really the core of Smith's argument here. Unlike a lot of other goalies, his career kind of boils down to a literal handful of key saves made in OT periods which created a legacy beyond what the rest of his portfolio would justify. Also, as recently pointed out in another thread, Smith's legacy would be radically different if not for a completely random puckhandling flub by Randy Carlyle. One fluke play by one opposing player in one game, 180 feet away from Smith, changed the whole picture.

This is interesting. Some people feel that if the Flyers had done a better job replacing Parent, they would have 3 Cups instead of 2. In 4 years it will be half a century since they won their second and last cup.

 

[Professor What]

The simple question with Smith is, how does he look if he plays for any team other than the Islanders?

Are we even considering him as part of this project if he plays for, say, the Flyers or Sabres of the same era? Those were also good teams which picked up a lot of regular season Ws, but it's hard to see Smith being called a top-200 player on those rosters.

Of course this isn't intended to say Smith shouldn't get credit for what he did with the Islanders -- he definitely should -- but there's a lot of context in how that all fell together.

That's what makes him so interesting for me. Obviously, you can't put Smith anywhere else and still see him winning four, almost five Cups, but you can't just put anyone in New York and see the Islanders do it too. I feel very safe in saying that there were more goalies than couldn't have done that than could have, based on regular season play, but the number shrinks based on postseason play. I'd say that if the NHL didn't have playoffs, we wouldn't be talking about Smith as a top 200 player, but that run of playoff performances does it. Personally, I find a more interesting question to be, how many other teams would have become more legitimate contenders with Smith in net in the playoffs? Maybe Philly is the perfect team for that question. What happens if Billy Smith backstops the Flyers instead of Pete Peeters or a couple of rough outings in 1983 and 1984 by Pelle Lindbergh? Is that enough to make the difference?

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The simple question with Smith is, how does he look if he plays for any team other than the Islanders?

Are we even considering him as part of this project if he plays for, say, the Flyers or Sabres of the same era? Those were also good teams which picked up a lot of regular season Ws, but it's hard to see Smith being called a top-200 player on those rosters.

Of course this isn't intended to say Smith shouldn't get credit for what he did with the Islanders -- he definitely should -- but there's a lot of context in how that all fell together.

Who's to say the Flyers don't beat the Islanders with Smith in goal against the Chico Resch Islanders?

 

[seventieslord]

The simple question with Smith is, how does he look if he plays for any team other than the Islanders?

Are we even considering him as part of this project if he plays for, say, the Flyers or Sabres of the same era? Those were also good teams which picked up a lot of regular season Ws, but it's hard to see Smith being called a top-200 player on those rosters.

Of course this isn't intended to say Smith shouldn't get credit for what he did with the Islanders -- he definitely should -- but there's a lot of context in how that all fell together.

There's a lot of what ifs to unpack in this, but for starters, I think that the Isles would probably do alright if they had just decided around 1979 that Chico Resch was going to be the guy they rode in the playoffs and not Smith. They were both excellent. I think Smith came across his clutch reputation honestly and Resch had a couple rough patches in the mid-70s that cast some doubt on him, but that team was so strong that they still probably win 3-4 cups with Resch. Not with any goalie, but with him I'm pretty confident saying that.

The Flyers basically from 1974 through about 1987, were a team that always made their goalies look better. Yeah, Parent was excellent but they helped him become an all-time legend who is still on many people's top-10 lists. He misses a season and Wayne Stephenson goes 40-10 in his absence. Pete Peeters briefly looked like a top-5 NHL goalie for them after that. Then there was Lindbergh, and of course Bob Froese leading the NHL in sv% and 3rd in all-star voting, before Hextall wrote page 1 of what looked sure to be a HHOF story. Then the team dropped off and was known as a goalie graveyard for most of the next 30 years, but for those 15-or-so seasons there were some excellent seasons that suggest more to me than just, "the flyers sure know how to pick goalies".

Anyway, I think your point was, suppose Smith was on a team other than a dynasty powerhouse who scored 4.5 goals per game over 5 playoff years and only faced elimination once in 4 years. Yeah, I get it. I'm sure not saying Smith would win 4 cups with the Flyers instead of the Isles. I do think that he was a legitimately excellent goalie, though, and he'd have given the Flyers a much better chance than they had in reality, and would have cut into the Isles' chances as a consequence as well.

Smith's save percentages were superb literally every year from 1975 through 1984 - a full decade, though the team was a powerhouse the whole time. It's hard to separate how much of Smith's excellent personal stats were due to the team and how much of the team's results were because of his excellent play. One point that is not at all in his favour is that Resch outplayed him in their time together, .911 to .904 in the regular season, and .914 to .904 in the playoffs. Resch never went on to post excellent stats again, though he was very good in his first full season in Colorado, and his slightly-below-average stats in New Jersey were still a good deal better than the team average, and he was 33-35 those seasons, at a time when that was ancient for the NHL. So it's hard to get a read on just what Smith's excellent NYI stats mean, in the context of what Resch's stats were and what he was able to do as a greybeard on a bad team afterwards.

Smith won't be on my ballot but he should make this list, and should be noticeably ahead of Grant Fuhr, IMO.

 

[MXD]

My biggest What If for Smith is what would've happened had not played for big proponent of a strict tandem system (for the regular season).

 

[ted2019]

Who's to say the Flyers don't beat the Islanders with Smith in goal against the Chico Resch Islanders?

Leon Sitckle says hi.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

There's a lot of what ifs to unpack in this, but for starters, I think that the Isles would probably do alright if they had just decided around 1979 that Chico Resch was going to be the guy they rode in the playoffs and not Smith. They were both excellent. I think Smith came across his clutch reputation honestly and Resch had a couple rough patches in the mid-70s that cast some doubt on him, but that team was so strong that they still probably win 3-4 cups with Resch. Not with any goalie, but with him I'm pretty confident saying that.

The Flyers basically from 1974 through about 1987, were a team that always made their goalies look better. Yeah, Parent was excellent but they helped him become an all-time legend who is still on many people's top-10 lists. He misses a season and Wayne Stephenson goes 40-10 in his absence. Pete Peeters briefly looked like a top-5 NHL goalie for them after that. Then there was Lindbergh, and of course Bob Froese leading the NHL in sv% and 3rd in all-star voting, before Hextall wrote page 1 of what looked sure to be a HHOF story. Then the team dropped off and was known as a goalie graveyard for most of the next 30 years, but for those 15-or-so seasons there were some excellent seasons that suggest more to me than just, "the flyers sure know how to pick goalies".

Anyway, I think your point was, suppose Smith was on a team other than a dynasty powerhouse who scored 4.5 goals per game over 5 playoff years and only faced elimination once in 4 years. Yeah, I get it. I'm sure not saying Smith would win 4 cups with the Flyers instead of the Isles. I do think that he was a legitimately excellent goalie, though, and he'd have given the Flyers a much better chance than they had in reality, and would have cut into the Isles' chances as a consequence as well.

Smith's save percentages were superb literally every year from 1975 through 1984 - a full decade, though the team was a powerhouse the whole time. It's hard to separate how much of Smith's excellent personal stats were due to the team and how much of the team's results were because of his excellent play. One point that is not at all in his favour is that Resch outplayed him in their time together, .911 to .904 in the regular season, and .914 to .904 in the playoffs. Resch never went on to post excellent stats again, though he was very good in his first full season in Colorado, and his slightly-below-average stats in New Jersey were still a good deal better than the team average, and he was 33-35 those seasons, at a time when that was ancient for the NHL. So it's hard to get a read on just what Smith's excellent NYI stats mean, in the context of what Resch's stats were and what he was able to do as a greybeard on a bad team afterwards.

Smith won't be on my ballot but he should make this list, and should be noticeably ahead of Grant Fuhr, IMO.

I don't think so.

 

[seventieslord]

I don't think so.

it's pretty easy to say that in retrospect, because they won 4 cups and any changes to the formula can only make that result worse or equal, it can't really make it better. so no one on the Isles would ever want to rewrite history, put in Resch and see if they can make it 5 or 6 cups instead. But their respective performances in the years they were together suggest Resch may have been Smith's equal, or even better. Unless there are some "quality of competition" considerations I'm not making.

Award voters of the time certainly seemed to agree as well. Resch earned 451 points in all-star voting in their seasons together while Smith earned 12.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

it's pretty easy to say that in retrospect, because they won 4 cups and any changes to the formula can only make that result worse or equal, it can't really make it better. so no one on the Isles would ever want to rewrite history, put in Resch and see if they can make it 5 or 6 cups instead. But their respective performances in the years they were together suggest Resch may have been Smith's equal, or even better. Unless there are some "quality of competition" considerations I'm not making.

Award voters of the time certainly seemed to agree as well. Resch earned 451 points in all-star voting in their seasons together while Smith earned 12.

In the playoffs the Islanders were a different team with Smith. Resch had his chances.

Smith's willingness to clear his own crease made things easier for his defense and having a truly combative goalie in that era didn't hurt.

But most of all Smith made the big saves that Resch didn't in the playoffs.