Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 1

[ResilientBeast]

I think Iginla/Blake would be a great comparison. 2 Power Forwards from different eras.

Blake AS: 1,1,1,2,2
Iginla AS: 1,1,1,2,3,5,5

Blake Hart Voting: 1
Iginla Hart Voting: 2,2,3,10

Blake Top 10 Goals: 2,3,3,8
Iginla Top 10 Goals: 1,1,3,3

Blake Top 10 Assists: 3,6,7,7,8,8,10
Iginla Top 10 Assists: 10

Blake Top 10 Points: 1,3,3,6,7,7
Iginla Top 10 Points: 1,3 6,8

Underlined are in war years

Red 43-44 forward are playing with AS Maurice Richard

Without a doubt, Blake played with far better players than Iginla ever did during his prime.

 

[ted2019]

I see Iginla being ahead of Blake after looking into everything. Not sure what others have to say about this conclusion.

 

[Nick Hansen]

For whatever it is worth I just noticed that Doughty and Hedman's resumes are quite similar. 4x All-star, 4-time finalists for the Norris winning it once and each have two really good playoff runs being generally considered strong playoff performers. Hedman has the Smythe but Doughty could have one as well (Williams winning it never sat right with me).

 

[quoipourquoi]

For whatever it is worth I just noticed that Doughty and Hedman's resumes are quite similar. 4x All-star, 4-time finalists for the Norris winning it once and each have two really good playoff runs being generally considered strong playoff performers. Hedman has the Smythe but Doughty could have one as well (Williams winning it never sat right with me).

While this may be true, let’s try to ease back on discussing currently ineligible players.

 

[seventieslord]

For whatever it is worth I just noticed that Doughty and Hedman's resumes are quite similar. 4x All-star, 4-time finalists for the Norris winning it once and each have two really good playoff runs being generally considered strong playoff performers. Hedman has the Smythe but Doughty could have one as well (Williams winning it never sat right with me).

If we're just "accomplishment counting" or trophy counting, sure. But there's a lot more meat on the bone for Doughty. 150 more games played at a high level, and has averaged 3 more minutes per game over that larger sample. Those three minutes largely represent the difference between being the far and away, all-situations undisputed #1 of your team practically right from the start, and easing into the role of a #1 more gradually. Doughty's lowest TOI in a season was as a 19-year old rookie (23:50) and to date, Hedman has played more than that in just three seasons. He deserves to be a good deal behind him at this moment, so it's good we're not discussing them in the same round.

 

[tarheelhockey]

A timeline of Gerard's shift from wing to D, as a reference for when we look at his stats etc.

1910-14 - Stars at wing for amateur New Edinburgh in Ottawa's very competitive city league

1914-15 - Signs with the Senators and plays two NHA seasons at wing

March 15, 1915 - In the final game of the NHA championship, drops back onto a D pairing with Art Ross. Sens throttle a good Montreal Wanderers team 4-1, Gerard impressing with his ability to defend within Ottawa's 3-men-back system.

1915-1917 - Began to practice and make occasional game appearances at D, though it appears his primary position during gameplay was still LW. Gerard became the team's playing-coach in 1916, and would occasionally assign himself back to D in a pinch.

1918-1923 - Gerard shifted to full-time starting D. By this time, the Sens roster was stacked in such a way that Gerard was regarded as both the Sens' starting D and also as a utility player who could flex up to forward mid-game, giving them a roster 2 quality subs deep at every position. Gerard was also the playing-coach, and generally viewed as one of the best all-round contributors in hockey (though, mind you, not regarded as the 'best player').

1924 - Retires after sitting out the first few weeks of the 1923-24 season on a doctor's advice due to a non-hockey throat condition that would kill him 14 years later. By this time the Sens had a laughably stacked defense with Gerard, Clancy, Boucher, and Hitchman. Gerard opted to move into full-time management rather than risk making his throat condition worse.

 

[BenchBrawl]

A timeline of Gerard's shift from wing to D, as a reference for when we look at his stats etc.

1910-14 - Stars at wing for amateur New Edinburgh in Ottawa's very competitive city league

1914-15 - Signs with the Senators and plays two NHA seasons at wing

Gerard was signed to a huge contract right from the get go too, so he was seen as a great all-around athlete even before his NHA career.

 

[Hobnobs]

If we're just "accomplishment counting" or trophy counting, sure. But there's a lot more meat on the bone for Doughty. 150 more games played at a high level, and has averaged 3 more minutes per game over that larger sample. Those three minutes largely represent the difference between being the far and away, all-situations undisputed #1 of your team practically right from the start, and easing into the role of a #1 more gradually. Doughty's lowest TOI in a season was as a 19-year old rookie (23:50) and to date, Hedman has played more than that in just three seasons. He deserves to be a good deal behind him at this moment, so it's good we're not discussing them in the same round.

TOI signifies value to the team based on several variables and not whos better.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Toe Blake from various ATD Bios:
Long before he became a coaching legend, left wing Hector "Toe" Blake was a talented scorer and NHL star. He totaled 235 career goals, including six 20-goal seasons and became known as "the Old Lamplighter" in honor of his skill for putting the puck in the net. During the 1940s he formed one of the league's most dangerous lines, the Punch Line, with Maurice Richard and Elmer Lach.

"Blake was the backbone of that group," explained Lach. "He was always in position; he was always serious and he was the same when he coached the Canadiens. The three of us did like to win. We made sure that we didn't have any goals scored against us. We hated that more than wanting to score.

There was nothing at which he did not excel. He was a strong, fast skater; he could and did pick the corners with his shots; his passing left little to be desired; he was a past-master at both fore and back checking; his services were in demand when his team had the odd-man advantage and he was often pressed into service when his team was short-handed.

"The hallmark of Blake's success is his doggedness," Marc T. MacNeil of the Gazette wrote. "He never ceases trying. He doesn't know what it means to quit." MacNeil was watching the Canadiens one night with Blake's injured teammate Bob Gracie. "There goes the best left winger in the National Hockey League," Gracie said as Blake dashed down the ice. "What a worker that guy is."

Toe Blake is Getting Reputation as a Fighter
Toe Blake's outbreak at Detroit is nothing new for the fiery Frenchman from norther Ontario. They say that when he was in the Canam league earlier this year with Springfield he was willing to take on all comers and got into some glorious brawls.

Toe Blake is an aggressive, boring-in goal scorer, who has inspired the Floating Frenchmen to a fine late season spurt. He will hurtle through the centre of a defence man or practically run along the rail of the boards to get that biscuit into a shooting spot and he should rank with the all-time greats in a few more years if his ribs hold out.

Blake is a coach who lives to get out on the ice and show his players just what he means. He took the odd turn with the team, sometimes at defence...Now old Toe has to get out there and do his stuff, aching dogs and all, but still a canny player and a wizard at killing off penalties.

Known more as a tough forward, Toe's talents were refined while with the Canadiens, and he became a proficient playmaker and scorer.

One thing that impresses me about Blake is the fact that he was an all-star level player and an extremely successful coach.

Not many great players go on to be great coaches. I assume this means he really understood the game (the whole game) on a different level than most. Probably gave him a real edge as a player.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

TOI signifies value to the team based on several variables and not whos better.

Some may argue that those two are equivalent.

 

[Hobnobs]

Some may argue that those two are equivalent.

I'm talking TOI difference between two players on two different teams now. Just so we're clear here.

 

[tarheelhockey]

Gerard was signed to a huge contract right from the get go too, so he was seen as a great all-around athlete even before his NHA career.

Definitely. Not to get way off topic of what we're supposed to be voting on, but he was a star football player and rower (at a time when people actually followed rowing). He was in the news almost year-round and therefore one of the most familiar names in Canadian athletics at a young age. And he was doing that as a member of the athletic club in the neighborhood he grew up in, so you have to imagine he was pretty much living every young man's dream.

Getting him signed to a pro contract was a real challenge. Gerard didn't really need the money, he would have to give up his eligibility in other sports, and he would take on all the issues associated with travel etc. He turned down a lot of offers before he finally made the jump, presumably after the typical horse-trading behind closed doors between the Sens, Gerard, and the government office where he worked.

 

[Batis]

Here is a overview of the international accolades of the available Non-NHL Europeans.

Alexander Maltsev: 3 WHC Directorate Best Forward awards (1970, 1972, 1981) 5 WHC All-Star team selections (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981) and 1 Canada Cup All-Star team selection (1976)

Vladimir Martinec: 1 WHC Directorate Best Forward award (1976) and 4 WHC All-Star team selections (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Valeri Vasiliev: 3 WHC Directorate Best Defenceman awards (1973, 1977, 1979) and 5 WHC All-Star team selections (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Here is a overview of their WHC All-Star voting records.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 4th (1978), 6th (1974)
Maltsev very clearly has the strongest WHC All-Star voting record among the remaining forwards. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is both his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

Vladimir Martinec: 1st (1974), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1975), Top 3 (1977), Tied for 9th (1972)
Martinec peak period in 1974-1977 is very impressive with top 3 finishes at four straight tournaments. Four consecutive top 3 finishes is something that only Makarov and Firsov managed to beat out among forwards. The only problem with his voting record is that Martinec outside of that peak period did not add much of value compared to the other players with the strongest voting records.

So when comparing the voting records of Maltsev and Martinec I would say that their peak performance in WHC competition are on roughly the same level (Maltsev 70-72 versus Martinec 74-77) but when looking at the whole picture Maltsevs voting record is clearly stronger.

And here is Vasilievs voting record and how it compares to the two forwards.

Valeri Vasiliev: 1st (1975), Tied for 1st (1981), 2nd (1974), Top 2 (1977), Top 2 (1979), Top 4 (1978)
Comparing the WHC voting records of forwards and defencemen is always difficult considering that the competition at the forward position was clearly stronger. So even if Vasilievs voting record on paper measures up well to Maltsevs and is stronger than Martinecs it is my opinion rather difficult to judge exactly how much that is worth in a direct comparison to them. Especially considering just how far ahead of Vasiliev that Maltsev is when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting records. With this said I do think that it is worth noting that Vasiliev in 1981 was tied for 1st place in the All-Star voting with Larry Robinson and with both Fetisov and Kasatonov playing at that tournament as well it is fair to say that the competition at the position was very strong in that specific year. But overall I would say that when adjusting for strenght of competition Vasilievs WHC-All-Star voting record is clearly less impressive than Maltsevs and perhaps somewhat less impressive than Martinecs voting record as well.

To Maltsevs further credit he does not only have the strongest WHC voting record of the three but he is also the only one of them with a All-Star team selection in Canada Cup competition as well. So there should be no doubt about that when it comes to individual accolades on the international stage Maltsev clearly stands out here. With this said I do think that a case can be made for Martinec being the greater player overall based on his superior big game performances and having a clear edge over Maltsev on the defensive side of the game. In fact if someone were to ask me which player would you rather build a team around I would probably lean slightly towards picking Martinec even if I do think that Maltsev has a more impressive resume on paper. In my opinion both of them belong ahead of Vasiliev even if his international career and accolades also are very impressive. To me Maltsevs advantage over Vasiliev when it comes to SPOTY voting is just way too big for me to seriously entertain the idea of ranking Vasiliev ahead. Even when taking into account that defencemen may have been somewhat underrated in the SPOTY voting.

 

[seventieslord]

I'm talking TOI difference between two players on two different teams now. Just so we're clear here.

We're talking about a very large difference here. Teams can't explain all of that. I would never just say that so-and-so is better than another player because he played 30 seconds more on another team.

and the competition on their blue lines has been approximately the same. Neither player has had an outstanding number 2 or 3 to make their lives a little bit easier. They've had approximately similar depth charts with the exception of course with Hedman having Ryan McDonagh the last couple seasons.

 

[Hobnobs]

We're talking about a very large difference here. Teams can't explain all of that.

and the competition on their blue lines has been approximately the same. Neither player has had an outstanding number 2 or 3 to make their lives a little bit easier. They've had approximately similar depth charts with the exception of course with Hedman having Ryan McDonagh the last couple seasons.

Its still up to coaches how to use players, how to distribute ice time, depth and more factors. Or are we suggesting Doughty is better than Chara now?

 

[ted2019]

One thing that impresses me about Blake is the fact that he was an all-star level player and an extremely successful coach.

Not many great players go on to be great coaches. I assume this means he really understood the game (the whole game) on a different level than most. Probably gave him a real edge as a player.

Yeah, but this has nothing to do about coaching and all about his playing career.

 

[ted2019]

Here is a overview of the international accolades of the available Non-NHL Europeans.

Alexander Maltsev: 3 WHC Directorate Best Forward awards (1970, 1972, 1981) 5 WHC All-Star team selections (1970, 1971, 1972, 1978, 1981) and 1 Canada Cup All-Star team selection (1976)

Vladimir Martinec: 1 WHC Directorate Best Forward award (1976) and 4 WHC All-Star team selections (1974, 1975, 1976, 1977)

Valeri Vasiliev: 3 WHC Directorate Best Defenceman awards (1973, 1977, 1979) and 5 WHC All-Star team selections (1974, 1975, 1977, 1979, 1981)

Here is a overview of their WHC All-Star voting records.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 4th (1978), 6th (1974)
Maltsev very clearly has the strongest WHC All-Star voting record among the remaining forwards. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is both his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

Vladimir Martinec: 1st (1974), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1975), Top 3 (1977), Tied for 9th (1972)
Martinec peak period in 1974-1977 is very impressive with top 3 finishes at four straight tournaments. Four consecutive top 3 finishes is something that only Makarov and Firsov managed to beat out among forwards. The only problem with his voting record is that Martinec outside of that peak period did not add much of value compared to the other players with the strongest voting records.

So when comparing the voting records of Maltsev and Martinec I would say that their peak performance in WHC competition are on roughly the same level (Maltsev 70-72 versus Martinec 74-77) but when looking at the whole picture Maltsevs voting record is clearly stronger.

And here is Vasilievs voting record and how it compares to the two forwards.

Valeri Vasiliev: 1st (1975), Tied for 1st (1981), 2nd (1974), Top 2 (1977), Top 2 (1979), Top 4 (1978)
Comparing the WHC voting records of forwards and defencemen is always difficult considering that the competition at the forward position was clearly stronger. So even if Vasilievs voting record on paper measures up well to Maltsevs and is stronger than Martinecs it is my opinion rather difficult to judge exactly how much that is worth in a direct comparison to them. Especially considering just how far ahead of Vasiliev that Maltsev is when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting records. With this said I do think that it is worth noting that Vasiliev in 1981 was tied for 1st place in the All-Star voting with Larry Robinson and with both Fetisov and Kasatonov playing at that tournament as well it is fair to say that the competition at the position was very strong in that specific year. But overall I would say that when adjusting for strenght of competition Vasilievs WHC-All-Star voting record is clearly less impressive than Maltsevs and perhaps somewhat less impressive than Martinecs voting record as well.

To Maltsevs further credit he does not only have the strongest WHC voting record of the three but he is also the only one of them with a All-Star team selection in Canada Cup competition as well. So there should be no doubt about that when it comes to individual accolades on the international stage Maltsev clearly stands out here. With this said I do think that a case can be made for Martinec being the greater player overall based on his superior big game performances and having a clear edge over Maltsev on the defensive side of the game. In fact if someone were to ask me which player would you rather build a team around I would probably lean slightly towards picking Martinec even if I do think that Maltsev has a more impressive resume on paper. In my opinion both of them belong ahead of Vasiliev even if his international career and accolades also are very impressive. To me Maltsevs advantage over Vasiliev when it comes to SPOTY voting is just way too big for me to seriously entertain the idea of ranking Vasiliev ahead. Even when taking into account that defencemen may have been somewhat underrated in the SPOTY voting.

I'm wondering if a Maltsev & Gilmour/Stastny comparison would be good? Maybe a Savard/Vasiliev ?

 

[Black Gold Extractor]

And here is Vasilievs voting record and how it compares to the two forwards.

Valeri Vasiliev: 1st (1975), Tied for 1st (1981), 2nd (1974), Top 2 (1977), Top 2 (1979), Top 4 (1978)
Comparing the WHC voting records of forwards and defencemen is always difficult considering that the competition at the forward position was clearly stronger. So even if Vasilievs voting record on paper measures up well to Maltsevs and is stronger than Martinecs it is my opinion rather difficult to judge exactly how much that is worth in a direct comparison to them. Especially considering just how far ahead of Vasiliev that Maltsev is when it comes to Soviet player of the year voting records. With this said I do think that it is worth noting that Vasiliev in 1981 was tied for 1st place in the All-Star voting with Larry Robinson and with both Fetisov and Kasatonov playing at that tournament as well it is fair to say that the competition at the position was very strong in that specific year. But overall I would say that when adjusting for strenght of competition Vasilievs WHC-All-Star voting record is clearly less impressive than Maltsevs and perhaps somewhat less impressive than Martinecs voting record as well.

It's also worth noting that Vasiliev's 1981 WHC stat line reads 8 GP - 0 G - 0A - 0 PTS (+2). By that point in his career, he's Kevin Lowe: an old-school defenseman who you're not surprised to see wearing a "C". Fetisov had 5 points and was +6 in the same tournament. Kasatonov had 4 points and was +8. At best, I could say that in the purely defensive part of the game, perhaps Vasiliev was better than Fetisov or Kasatonov, but there's no way that his overall impact was greater in that tournament. (As for Robinson, Canada went 0-5-1 in a horrific showing. I guess he was the only bright spot... but how does that translate to an all-star team berth?)

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Yeah, but this has nothing to do about coaching and all about his playing career.

The point is, he must have had tremendous insight into the game as a player.

 

[blogofmike]

It's also worth noting that Vasiliev's 1981 WHC stat line reads 8 GP - 0 G - 0A - 0 PTS (+2). By that point in his career, he's Kevin Lowe: an old-school defenseman who you're not surprised to see wearing a "C". Fetisov had 5 points and was +6 in the same tournament. Kasatonov had 4 points and was +8. At best, I could say that in the purely defensive part of the game, perhaps Vasiliev was better than Fetisov or Kasatonov, but there's no way that his overall impact was greater in that tournament. (As for Robinson, Canada went 0-5-1 in a horrific showing. I guess he was the only bright spot... but how does that translate to an all-star team berth?)

Robinson was also named top defenceman by the directorate. Maybe that guy was really good, and it even showed on a really bad team.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I'm wondering if a Maltsev & Gilmour/Stastny comparison would be good? Maybe a Savard/Vasiliev ?

Had Savard and Maltsev back to back on my list. Vasiliev 5 spots behind them.

But they were not in my top 15.

 

[overpass]

As an Ottawa Senators fan, I've followed Erik Karlsson's entire career fairly closely. And I think he's one of the hardest players to rate in a historical context.

Everyone knows Karlsson is nothing special defensively, but when you look at the goals-against results for Karlsson's 7 season peak (2011-12 through 2017-18), Karlsson has been on the ice for 0.1 goals/game more than anyone else, and 0.2 goals/game more than the average #1 defenceman.

Yes, he makes up for that by being on the ice for more goals for than anyone else...but we already knew he was a great offensive defenceman, and it's pretty clear he was giving back a lot of that value on the other end. His GF/GA ratio on the ice is better than his off-ice ratio (1.04 to 0.95), but it's less impressive than several of his contemporaries.

2011-12 through 2017-18.

Player	GP	ESGF	ESGA	ESGF/G	ESGA/G	R-ON	R-OFF
Erik Karlsson	492	524	508	1.06	1.03	1.04	0.95
Justin Faulk	477	348	454	0.73	0.95	0.77	0.86
Tyson Barrie	406	331	373	0.81	0.92	0.89	0.87
Dustin Byfuglien	408	409	375	1.00	0.92	1.09	1.00
Alex Goligoski	522	453	462	0.87	0.89	0.99	0.93
Jeff Petry	492	329	421	0.67	0.86	0.78	0.91
Justin Schultz	407	339	346	0.83	0.85	0.97	0.82
Duncan Keith	509	503	430	0.99	0.85	1.18	1.14
Roman Josi	481	433	404	0.90	0.84	1.07	1.05
Erik Johnson	412	315	346	0.76	0.84	0.91	0.94
Victor Hedman	473	462	396	0.98	0.84	1.16	1.06
Oliver Ekman-Larsson	528	389	438	0.74	0.83	0.89	0.83
Ryan Suter	528	516	428	0.98	0.81	1.21	1.02
Mark Giordano	478	418	387	0.87	0.81	1.08	0.79
Keith Yandle	542	410	436	0.76	0.81	0.94	0.97
Jack Johnson	506	364	402	0.72	0.80	0.90	1.10
Brent Burns	478	411	378	0.86	0.79	1.09	1.05
Alex Pietrangelo	521	464	408	0.89	0.78	1.14	1.18
P.K. Subban	503	457	393	0.91	0.78	1.16	1.02
Shea Weber	465	394	356	0.85	0.76	1.11	0.96
Cam Fowler	485	361	370	0.75	0.76	0.98	1.19
John Carlson	504	416	383	0.83	0.76	1.09	1.19
Jay Bouwmeester	471	360	355	0.76	0.75	1.01	1.06
Brent Seabrook	530	454	394	0.86	0.74	1.16	1.15
Drew Doughty	531	465	390	0.88	0.73	1.19	1.07
Zdeno Chara	495	454	358	0.92	0.72	1.27	1.15
Ryan McDonagh	490	462	348	0.94	0.71	1.33	1.07
Marc-Edouard Vlasic	504	418	348	0.83	0.69	1.21	0.98

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

R-ON is the GF/GA ratio while the players is on the ice, R-OFF is the team's GF/GA ratio while the player is off the ice.

The frustrating thing is that Karlsson has shown flashes of excellent defensive play, but when he's not playing well he might be the worst defensive player in the league.

Here are some of my notes on his year by year performance.

Year	Team	GP	G	A	P	+/-	ESGF	ESGA	ESGF/G	ESGA/G	R-ON	R-OFF	Voting
2010	OTT	60	5	21	26	-5	38	42	0.63	0.70	0.91	0.93
2011	OTT	75	13	32	45	-30	46	74	0.61	0.99	0.62	0.78
2012	OTT	81	19	59	78	16	95	74	1.18	0.92	1.28	0.92	Norris-1
2013	OTT	17	6	8	14	8	16	9	0.94	0.52	1.80	0.98	Norris-18
2014	OTT	82	20	54	74	-15	80	89	0.98	1.09	0.90	0.96	Norris-7
2015	OTT	82	21	45	66	7	89	76	1.09	0.93	1.17	1.12	Norris-1
2016	OTT	82	16	66	82	-2	95	98	1.16	1.20	0.97	1.02	Norris-2
2017	OTT	77	17	54	71	10	73	63	0.95	0.82	1.16	0.88	Norris-2
2018	OTT	71	9	53	62	-25	75	97	1.05	1.37	0.76	0.80	Norris-12
2019	SJS	53	3	42	45	6	65	57	1.22	1.07	1.15	1.07	Norris-15
2020	SJS	56	6	34	40	-15	47	63	0.84	1.13	0.75	0.75

[TBODY] [/TBODY]

2010 and 2011 weren't really historically significant seasons

2011-12: Karlsson's breakout year. He was a superb offensive player this season. Just incredible acceleration with the puck. He'd get the puck on his stick and exit the zone like he was shot out of a cannon, often taking angles or lanes that nobody else thanks to his acceleration, speed, and skill. When Karlsson and three forwards were flying through the neutral zone and crossing the blueline, it was a thing of beauty. Like Magic Johnson and the Showtime Lakers on the fast break. Karlsson led the Sens turnaround from finishing 29th in GF the year before to finishing 4th in GF. A lot of average forwards saw their scoring totals boosted by Karlsson that year. Karlsson also had a special connection with Jason Spezza. Spezza in 2011-12 was maybe the best forward Karlsson ever played with, and they both saw the game at a high level and made some great plays together. Makes you wonder what Karlsson could have done playing with more skilled players...he also looked incredible at the 2014 Olympics playing with lots of skill.

That being said, if I had a vote for the Norris I would have placed Karlsson second or third, with Zdeno Chara above him (I didn't see enough of Weber). It was a very close 3 man race that year with Karlsson, Chara, and Weber. And for all Karlsson did offensively, he gave back a lot defensively. Some of it was due to his aggressive positioning in the offensive zone, skating below the circles on a rush or pinching up the wall in the zone. While he always skated back hard to get back into the play, I remember several goals against where he was engaging his man from the side or behind after skating back instead of being in position. And some of it was because he was ineffective in his own zone against an opponent who had established position. I remember several goals against where the opponent scored from in front after Karlsson just let him have position. Karlsson could and did make very good defensive plays in open ice and where the opponent didn't have clear possession, because he could attack and break up the play...but when he had to wait for the opponent and react, he was very very bad defensively.

2012-13: Karlsson played 14 games this year before his Achilles was sliced. In those 14 games he looked like he had gone to another level. His offence and his incredible skating was still there, and now he was more of a two-way player, flowing from attack to defence to attack more smoothly. He wasn't getting caught so far up the ice, and he was positioning himself better on defence, reacting better, and was decisively closing to the puck more often.

I know it was only 14 games. And it was a weird lockout season, where Karlsson was probably better prepared and conditioned than some other players. But in some ways that was the best version of Karlsson I ever saw. Not as smart as he would be later, but he still had the incredible skating. What a tragedy that injury was.

2013-14: Karlsson looked off all season, especially defensively. He got some Norris votes but in my opinion they were entirely stat votes and he didn't really deserve any. He gave back just as much on defence as he contributed on offence. His gap control was poor, his pivots were shaky, and he didn't have the confidence to engage defensively that he had the previous season. To be fair to him, he was really still recovering from the Achilles injury and I think all his defensive issues were caused by that -- he was still good on offence when he could dictate the play, but he was not there when he had to react defensively.

As shaky as his NHL season was, Karlsson was incredible at the 2014 Olympics. He didn't have to do as much defensively, he could use his stick more instead of his body on the big ice, and his skill and hockey IQ really popped on the screen while playing with other great players. After seeing this, you really have to wonder what Karlsson could have done with more skilled players.

2014-15: This year was a tale of two half-seasons for Karlsson. He really didn't play well through December, looking awful defensively. But on the other hand, his regular partner Marc Methot was injured and he was playing 27 minutes a game with a rotating series of borderline NHLers on his left side. Once Methot returned, Karlsson was lights out in 2015. Easily the best defenceman in the league and maybe the best player in the league down the stretch, and he was playing well defensively once again, although he was still a gambler at times.

Did Karlsson deserve this Norris? He edged out Drew Doughty and PK Subban for the trophy. Honestly I would understand voting for someone else, considering how bad Karlsson was in the first 30 games..but I don't think any other defencemen had a standout year, and Karlsson really was that good in the second half of the season. Call it a weak Norris win.

2015-16: Karlsson had his highest scoring season, with 82 points. On the other hand, he was on the ice for 98 even strength goals against, his highest total ever. I don't remember him being particularly bad defensively this year, but I do remember he played a ton of ice time, including a fair bit of time without his regular partner Methot. And this version of Karlsson was still pinching up to create offence at times and could be burned the other way. Frankly he was probably over-stretched this season, playing too many minutes on a marginal team thanks to a coach who was in over his head and trying to save his job. He finished second in Norris voting to Drew Doughty. I'm OK with that.

2016-17: Karlsson changed his style of play this season to play more conservatively and fit into new coach Guy Boucher's system. He wasn't pinching up ice as much. Some fans were concerned because his scoring numbers and his shot-based analytics numbers were down for much of the season -- but in my opinion that was because Karlsson was learning how to play within the game and the team. His 5-on-5 on-ice save percentage was the highest of his career at 0.927, and I think that was a direct result of him playing within the team and not taking himself out of position. His scoring numbers and analytics picked up in the last couple of months as he became more comfortable impacting the game with his high skill and IQ without skating all over the place. He was really good on the road that year, and I think he broke the standard game plan that coaches around the league had been using against him.

Then he had that incredible playoffs run. The Sens had other players playing well of course, but Karlsson was the driver. He was involved in so many of the goals, he was terrific defensively. He was playing hurt too. In the past he had struggled when he wasn't healthy, but now it almost disciplined him and forced him to stay in position, letting him control the game with his hands and his head. This was the best version of Erik Karlsson we ever saw, and the best season we ever saw from him. I honestly thought the sky was the limit for him after seeing how he learned to play a more mature game this season. I still don't really know what happened.

2017-18: Karlsson just didn't seem right when he came back this year. It was strange that he could play on a broken foot so well in the 2017 playoffs but now he looked so off in the fall of 2017. He also really missed the departed Marc Methot, as he had to cover for a series of marginal NHLers cycling through his left side, including Johnny Oduya, Freddy Claesson, and Mark Borowiecki. All too often he was hung out to dry with the left defenceman stepping up in Guy Boucher's 1-3-1 and whiffing on the play. His numbers improved after the all-star break, with 31 points in 29 games and only a -1. Overall this was an absolutely miserable defensive season for him, showing that he needs support defensively -- he's not the kind of player who can elevate marginal NHLers on defence.

I don't have much to say about him after he was traded to the Sharks.

 

[seventieslord]

Its still up to coaches how to use players, how to distribute ice time, depth and more factors. Or are we suggesting Doughty is better than Chara now?

Zdeno Chara played 24-28 minutes for 12 straight seasons. So why would someone claim Doughty is better on the basis of ice time? Why do you think I would?

All I'm saying is Doughty has provided a lot more value beyond his best four seasons. Is that incorrect?

 

[Hobnobs]

Zdeno Chara played 24-28 minutes for 12 straight seasons. So why would someone claim Doughty is better on the basis of ice time? Why do you think I would?

All I'm saying is Doughty has provided a lot more value beyond his best four seasons. Is that incorrect?

Still a lower average ice-time than Doughty though. Must mean he wasn't as good.

 

[MXD]

Still a lower average ice-time than Doughty though. Must mean he wasn't as good.

I really gotta ask : What's your point?