Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread

[Theokritos]

Is that right? I better start...

I've put it in the thread title for the time being.

 

[quoipourquoi]

If people need more time (I’m at 3 lists so far), I don’t mind extending a little. Whatever works best for everybody.

 

[decma]

I disagree. I'm against a strict quota of course, but it is only responsible to look at your representation by era and position when putting a list like this together. Everybody has nostalgia and biases and blind spots, and a good way to double-check for those things is to see whether your list is skewed in a particular way. If somebody has 20 centers from the 1990s and three centers from the 1930s, they can argue as long as they want about who "deserves" to be there but nobody should buy that argument because obviously something is wrong with their evaluation.

What would be considered an acceptable ratio?

Given how many more kids played hockey in the 1960s and 1970s vs the first two decades of the 1900s, I suspect that, all else equal, a ratio of 6:1 makes more sense than 1:1 or even 2:1.

 

[ted2019]

What would be considered an acceptable ratio?

Given how many more kids played hockey in the 1960s and 1970s vs the first two decades of the 1900s, I suspect that, all else equal, a ratio of 6:1 makes more sense than 1:1 or even 2:1.

There isn't one.

 

[ted2019]

Sent my list, I have the following by position.

Wingers: 60
Centers: 70
Defensemen: 55
Goaltenders: 35

 

[Professor What]

Sent my list, I have the following by position.

Wingers: 60
Centers: 70
Defensemen: 55
Goaltenders: 35

I have a few more wingers and a few less centers, but we're almost exactly the same on defenseman and goalie counts.

 

[DN28]

Well-detailled and very informative post (and I can say that despite not agreeing with everything). I'm agreeing with a lot, so I'll focus on differences and disagreements.

Regarding Grant Fuhr, I can't quite see how his drug issues put into question his earlier successes. He wasn't abusing PEDs as far as I know. If your point was that his drug issues were a distraction, fair enough, though it's worth wondering who and what exactly were distracted. Also, saying his regular season record was similar to Andy Moog seems like a way to point out his similarities with another netminder while completely ignoring what differentiates them (and I'd also add that Andy Moog would've been a decent candidate for this list had his PO record been in line with his RS record). Fuhr also had workhorses seasons when these were not super common.

I'm probably ranking Grant Fuhr... somewhere, though I must admit I'm friendlier to goalies than most.

Regarding Rogatien Vachon, playing with the Kings can probably go a long way towards explaining the said "filler" seasons. I'm not really blaming him for his Wings-Bruins late career either : the Wings were awful and he was legit over the hill (while having already a full career) when he joined the Bruins. I don't know if I'm ranking Vachon, but there's probably a point where the gap between him and Esposito becomes unreasonable to justify sleeping on Vachon.

Regarding John Ross Roach... I don't think he can get away with the fact the Rangers won the Stanley Cup just before he joined them AND just after he left, despite the other core players remaining the same (and, to a certain extent, slipping into past-prime), and I'm also utterly unconvinced about the whole time he spent with Toronto. There's a lot to like in his late career though, especially getting the First All-Star Berth despite not winning the Vezina (that's in equal part a pro-Roach/anti-Thompson argument as far as I'm concerned)

Those are all very good counter-points.

Re: Fuhr. For example this Los Angeles Times article from Sep. 1, 1990 speaks about Fuhr taking cocaine regularly from 1983 to 1990 - more or less the time of his prime. I am no expert on PEDs but cocaine does evoke strong euphoric feelings, a sense of excitement, joy and a brightened mind. Cocaine increases self-confidence of an individual tremendously and it enhances one's ability to concentrate. It also can impair self-control while stimulating restlessness and aggression.

Looks like perfect substance for highly stressed and physically demanding job of NHL goaltender.

Reports indicate that Fuhr was indeed dependant on the substance, he wasn't just a recreational user. That LA Times article ends with Fuhr's wife talking about the effect on Fuhr's game:

“If it would happen this night, then the game the next day he would have a good day, but the one after that he would have a brutal one,” she said. “It would be a game later that the effects would show up.”

Re: Roach. Man, I didn't realize that Rangers won the SC twice just before and after Roach.. That's a bad look for Roach certainly, but..

I still think there's a lot to like about Roach's Toronto years. He started in 1922 and won the SC in his 1st season. He must have impressed. Somewhere in the ATD subsection, I found out a clip (posted by BenchBrawl, I believe.. credit goes to him) from Victoria Daily Times (Nov. 30, 1922) talking primarily about Reg Noble, but the article ends up with:

"The other two stars who will be under the fan's eyes tomorrow will be the famous Babe Day and John Ross Roach. Roach is only a youngster but he is the best goalie the East has ever produced. His judgement is absolutely uncanny."

Roach has also seemingly very good (or even great) 1924 season. Looking at final results, he almost won the inaugural Hart Trophy voting:

#	Player:	Pos:	Team:	Pts:
1.	Frank Nighbor	C	Ottawa Senators	37
2.	Sprague Cleghorn	D	Montreal Canadiens	36
3.	John Ross Roach	G	Toronto St. Patricks	35
4.	Georges Boucher	D	Ottawa Senators	?
5.	Billy Burch	C	Hamilton Tigers	?
6.	Howie Morenz	C	Montreal Canadiens	?
7.	Jake Forbes	G	Hamilton Tigers	?
8.	Goldie Prodgers	D	Hamilton Tigers	?
9.	Cy Denneny	LW	Ottawa Senators	?
10.	Babe Dye	RW	Toronto St. Patricks	?

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Those are all very good counter-points.

Re: Fuhr. For example this Los Angeles Times article from Sep. 1, 1990 speaks about Fuhr taking cocaine regularly from 1983 to 1990 - more or less the time of his prime. I am no expert on PEDs but cocaine does evoke strong euphoric feelings, a sense of excitement, joy and a brightened mind. Cocaine increases self-confidence of an individual tremendously and it enhances one's ability to concentrate. It also can impair self-control while stimulating restlessness and aggression.

Looks like perfect substance for highly stressed and physically demanding job of NHL goaltender.

Reports indicate that Fuhr was indeed dependant on the substance, he wasn't just a recreational user. That LA Times article ends with Fuhr's wife talking about the effect on Fuhr's game:

“If it would happen this night, then the game the next day he would have a good day, but the one after that he would have a brutal one,” she said. “It would be a game later that the effects would show up.”

Re: Roach. Man, I didn't realize that Rangers won the SC twice just before and after Roach.. That's a bad look for Roach certainly, but..

I still think there's a lot to like about Roach's Toronto years. He started in 1922 and won the SC in his 1st season. He must have impressed. Somewhere in the ATD subsection, I found out a clip (posted by BenchBrawl, I believe.. credit goes to him) from Victoria Daily Times (Nov. 30, 1922) talking primarily about Reg Noble, but the article ends up with:

"The other two stars who will be under the fan's eyes tomorrow will be the famous Babe Day and John Ross Roach. Roach is only a youngster but he is the best goalie the East has ever produced. His judgement is absolutely uncanny."

Roach has also seemingly very good (or even great) 1924 season. Looking at final results, he almost won the inaugural Hart Trophy voting:

#	Player:	Pos:	Team:	Pts:
1.	Frank Nighbor	C	Ottawa Senators	37
2.	Sprague Cleghorn	D	Montreal Canadiens	36
3.	John Ross Roach	G	Toronto St. Patricks	35
4.	Georges Boucher	D	Ottawa Senators	?
5.	Billy Burch	C	Hamilton Tigers	?
6.	Howie Morenz	C	Montreal Canadiens	?
7.	Jake Forbes	G	Hamilton Tigers	?
8.	Goldie Prodgers	D	Hamilton Tigers	?
9.	Cy Denneny	LW	Ottawa Senators	?
10.	Babe Dye	RW	Toronto St. Patricks	?

[TBODY] [/TBODY]
[TBODY] [/TBODY]

I'm sure there were a lot of goalies (on our lists) dependent on alcohol.

Should that effect the way we rank them?

 

[DN28]

I'm sure there were a lot of goalies (on our lists) dependent on alcohol.

Should that effect the way we rank them?

Alcohol doesn't increase your senses. It weakens them.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Alcohol doesn't increase your senses. It weakens them.

So are you saying Fuhr played games on Coke?

I took it to mean he was addicted to Cocaine, but not that he played on it.

 

[DN28]

So are you saying Fuhr played games on Coke?

I took it to mean he was addicted to Cocaine, but not that he played on it.

Obviously I don't know. I only tried to explain my earlier sentence about why Fuhr's extensive drug abuse "calls into question his earlier achievements".

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Obviously I don't know. I only tried to explain my earlier sentence about why Fuhr's extensive drug abuse "calls into question his earlier achievements".

So I guess we can call into question all the accomplishments of players that played for the Soviet Union.

 

[VanIslander]

Goalies are a STRANGE TWISTED-EMOTIONALLY lot that should be judged entirely by their play on the ice.

Full stop.

I don't care about Hall throwing up before games or Sawchuk's psychiatrist appointments. One was a 1st/2nd team all star for a decade and the other a dynasty hero, either or both arguably top 5 all time!

 

[DN28]

So I guess we can call into question all the accomplishments of players that played for the Soviet Union.

Not the same case.. As far as I know, there is no sufficient proof that the Soviets ever doped.

 

[Theokritos]

Not the same case.. As far as I know, there is no sufficient proof that the Soviets ever doped.

Larionov's open letter from 1988 says that players received injections at the 1982 World Championship (though the Green Unit refused to take them).

 

[DN28]

Larionov's open letter from 1988 says that players received injections at the 1982 World Championship (though the Green Unit refused to take them).

Yes, the Green Unit members rejected it, that is how I remembered it.

Though should I take it that the rest of the team did take the injections? If so, then I concede. That would be a fair point..

 

[Theokritos]

Though should I take it that the rest of the team did take the injections?

That's always been my assumption. Guess we'll have to dig up the letter.

 

[MXD]

Around 175 players ranked. Should finish in time (if not, I'll be just a few days late).

I may not even make it to 45 wingers (and that's on 220 players)

 

[Professor What]

I'm already looking forward to seeing individual lists and seeing how they vary just based on the couple of comments that have been made on that so far.

 

[Theokritos]

Larionov's open letter from 1988 says that players received injections at the 1982 World Championship (though the Green Unit refused to take them).

Yes, the Green Unit members rejected it, that is how I remembered it.

Though should I take it that the rest of the team did take the injections? If so, then I concede. That would be a fair point..

So I've looked it up and you were actually right. Here is what Larionov wrote:

Remember the uproar when I refused to be injected before the World Championships in Helsinki, it was even reported to the State Sport Committee. To the credit of our five, neither I nor Krutov nor Fetisov nor Makarov nor Kasatonov – unwilling to "go to a new level of play" on this way – allowed themselves to get an injection of placenta, glucose or something else.​

Although, when Larionov says that the Green Unit refused to take those injections, then this seems to suggest in reverse that other lines and players did take them. The substance that was supposed to be injected isn't clear though.

EDIT: Larionov's 1989 book apparently says that the Soviets tricked doping controls at the 1986 World Championship, which confirms that at least some players were doped at that point. See this article: EX-SOVIET STAR SAYS RUSSIANS CHEATED ON DRUG TESTS

 

[Yozhik v tumane]

neither I nor Krutov nor Fetisov nor Makarov nor Kasatonov – unwilling to "go to a new level of play" on this way – allowed themselves to get an injection of placenta...

What the...?

 

[Theokritos]

What the...?

Placental tissue contains hCG (human chorionic gonadotropin). You can google hCG doping.

 

[VanIslander]

In northern China, eating a baby's placenta is an ongoing tradition dating back centuries. It is done for health.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Not where I expected the thread to end up.

 

[ted2019]

Bumping this up as Saturday is right around the corner.