Top-200 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (A Game of Shadows)

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quoipourquoi

Goaltender
Jan 26, 2009
10,123
4,126
Hockeytown, MI
EDIT: Continued from here

  • Eligibility
    • Players will be judged only on their performance as hockey players
    • Currently active players are eligible, but will be judged only on what they have already accomplished
  • Preliminary Discussion Thread
    • Anyone may participate in this thread, even if he or she or they do not intend to take part in the voting round
    • Posters are encouraged to share information about players in this thread and to take information shared into account when constructing their own lists
    • For instance, did you know Alexei Kovalev is a pilot? He even convinced his wife to let him buy his first airplane by pretending to be interested in getting a motorcycle. Unrelated to this project, but when forming a roster to take on a team of space aliens, you may want Kovalev as a healthy scratch in case you need to fly away in a UFO
    • Brief comparisons between players are permitted, but detailed cases and debates should be saved for the voting round
    • Please do not rank players outright in the preliminary thread
  • Voting
    • Round 1
      • All participants submit a list of 220 players ranked in order, with all positions included
      • Players who were ranked in the previous top-100 project are to be included in your list, provided you believe them to be among the top-220 players of all-time
      • Previous participants may re-use their 120-player list from 2018 and merely add an additional 100 players
      • Both new and previous participants may use the ranked players from the 2019 project as their 1-100 and merely add an additional 120 players
      • All eras are to be considered
      • To make it easier to aggregate the submitted lists, please list players using their most commonly used name; e.g. Tim Thomas, not Timothy Thomas Jr.; Corey Perry, not Cornelius Worm Perry
      • Lists may be submitted via PM to quoipourquoi
      • Deadline for list submission is December 31
      • Players will be assigned a point value on each list based on ranking. A 1st-place vote is equal to 220 points. A 2nd-place vote is equal to 219 points. A 220th-place vote is equal to 1 point.
      • An aggregate list will be compiled ranking them in order of the most total points
      • Participants must submit a list in Round 1 to be eligible to vote in Round 2
    • Round 2
      • The top-15 ranked players from the aggregate list who were not ranked in the previous project will be posted in a thread
      • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
      • Player merits and rankings will be open for discussion and debate for a period of five days. Administrators may extend the discussion period if it remains active
      • Final voting will occur for two days via PM. A 1st-Place vote is equal to 10 points. A 2nd-Place vote is equal to 9 points. A 10th-Place vote is equal to 1 point. Unranked players receive 0 points.
      • The top-5 players will be added to the final list, unless there is a clear break (1.5 points per ballots cast) in voting after the top-3 players. Note that this is a modification of a rule from the previous project, which mandated the break occur after the top-4 players and did not have a set number of points to trigger the rule
      • We will add players that tie for 5th, and their ranks will be reflective of most 1st place votes, 2nd place votes, 3rd place votes, etc. This was not a rule from the previous project but rather was implemented following the Lalonde/Yzerman tie.
      • We will not play catch-up after adding just 3-4 players or adding 6-7 players. The subsequent vote will still be for the top-5 players. Because of this, Round 2 may last slightly longer or slightly shorter than the projected 20 weeks
      • The process repeats until we have a list of 100 players
      • Failure to retain an acceptable level of discussion may lead to an abbreviated list of no fewer than 25 players
  • Quality Assurance
    • Lists will be subject to an evaluation process
    • This is not meant to deter participation; we merely want to ensure that voters are considering all eras of hockey's history
    • The complete voting record of every participant will be released at the end of the project
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice. Alternatively, you may be subjected to getting fired out of a cannon. Towards the moon
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters
 
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Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
2,329
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Gallifrey
I want everyone to have time to submit lists to make this as good as it can be, but I'm ready to get this thing rolling. I'm excited about it.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,490
8,067
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
I'll just go ahead and say in advance that I should have had more goalies on my list. It's a shortcoming that I missed out on.

Still feeling the effects of being bitten by that radioactive spider, I see...

Let me break this down for all of you in an easy-to-digest equation...

More goalies = bad

Thank you.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,938
Wife’s working from home until at least March. Not sure I want her to see me pacing around the hallways with my iPad for three months because I need to research and compose a post about Michel Goulet.

It could be worse. Imagine having to tell her: "Sorry hon, I'm in the middle of composing a post on a guy whose first name is Cornelius Worm."
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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Wife’s working from home until at least March. Not sure I want her to see me pacing around the hallways with my iPad for three months because I need to research and compose a post about Michel Goulet.

You should be more like me. If my mind wasn't out there on something like that (even when I'm doing something else) everybody would think there's something wrong with me. Well, then again, maybe they think that anyway... Maybe they're right...
 
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steve141

Registered User
Aug 13, 2009
1,144
240
Just noticed something that some people might not know:

Pavel Datsyuk retired from the NHL in 2016. Since then he has managed to win an Olympic gold medal, a world championship medal and the Gagarin Cup (KHL's championship), and is still playing in the KHL at 42 years old. This shouldn't change his ranking very much, but is a case for good longevity at least.
 

TANK200

Registered User
Nov 13, 2007
659
30
As I was putting together a potential list for this exercise, I noticed that Sweeney Schriner was not included on the previous Top 100 player lists, and was only ranked in the top 120 by 4/32 participants in the most recent list. Considering that he was a two-time scoring leader and led the league in goals and points from 1934 to 1942 (before various players went off to war), this seems somewhat odd to me. Is there something I'm missing, or is he being underrated on this board?
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
As I was putting together a potential list for this exercise, I noticed that Sweeney Schriner was not included on the previous Top 100 player lists, and was only ranked in the top 120 by 4/32 participants in the most recent list. Considering that he was a two-time scoring leader and led the league in goals and points from 1934 to 1942 (before various players went off to war), this seems somewhat odd to me. Is there something I'm missing, or is he being underrated on this board?

Not a very good playoff performer, good scorer on a bad team stigma, not extremely strong scoring awards (Morenz, Conacher, Cook were all on the older side), scoring went down sharply when joined Toronto. That's the TLDR version of course.

Also, the 34-to-42 thing... I mean, that's fine and all, but that essentially tells us he was a better scorer than the likes of Ebbie Goodfellow and Dit Clapper (who were moved to D at some point), the better-rounded Syd Howe, Phil Watson and Johnny Gottselig, Bill Thoms and a bunch of players who didn't play every season between 34 and 42. Only one of these players made the Top-100, and Dit Clapper would never, ever have made it without his stint in defense. Only Goodfellow and Howe have a really viable case for the Top-200, with Goodfellow needing his years as a D-Men for that.

In other words, it tells us absolutely nothing.
 
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buffalowing88

Registered User
Aug 11, 2008
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Not a very good playoff performer, good scorer on a bad team stigma, not extremely strong scoring awards (Morenz, Conacher, Cook were all on the older side), scoring went down sharply when joined Toronto. That's the TLDR version of course.

Also, the 34-to-42 thing... I mean, that's fine and all, but that essentially tells us he was a better scorer than the likes of Ebbie Goodfellow and Dit Clapper (who were moved to D at some point), the better-rounded Syd Howe, Phil Watson and Johnny Gottselig, Bill Thoms and a bunch of players who didn't play every season between 34 and 42. Only one of these players made the Top-100, and Dit Clapper would never, ever have made it without his stint in defense. Only Goodfellow and Howe have a really viable case for the Top-200, with Goodfellow needing his years as a D-Men for that.

In other words, it tells us absolutely nothing.

I'm not trying to look back at my list until discussions start happening when everything is public but I definitely think I put him in my top-200. You make a good case with the playoff argument (holy crap was he bad, outside of '42)! But he also had a couple good years prior to the war that suggest he wasn't an anomaly. His '35-36 campaign, for instance, was against good competition. His consistency stood out to me and I think it warrants recognition. He was someone you could depend on, he was a prolific scorer, but more than anything, he wasn't missing games.
 

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
16,548
I'm not trying to look back at my list until discussions start happening when everything is public but I definitely think I put him in my top-200. You make a good case with the playoff argument (holy crap was he bad, outside of '42)! But he also had a couple good years prior to the war that suggest he wasn't an anomaly. His '35-36 campaign, for instance, was against good competition. His consistency stood out to me and I think it warrants recognition. He was someone you could depend on, he was a prolific scorer, but more than anything, he wasn't missing games.

Oh, he's absolutely a 220 candidate, and ranked him as such. If anything, he's very close to good enough to be a must on every list as far as I'm concerned.

I was more explaining why he wasn't considered for the former project.
 
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ResilientBeast

Proud Member of the TTSAOA
Jul 1, 2012
13,903
3,558
Edmonton
The bottom like quarter of my list is all these goalies I know should make it....but not sure where. My list is going to look rough (since I procrastinated)
 

Professor What

Registered User
Sep 16, 2020
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Gallifrey
The bottom like quarter of my list is all these goalies I know should make it....but not sure where. My list is going to look rough (since I procrastinated)

If it makes you feel any better, I didn't procrastinate and wracked my brain over mine, and I'm still afraid it's going to look rough.
 
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