Top 100 List: Thoughts & Suggestions

MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,810
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The thing with soviet players is that some posters voted them first as soon as they were available (look toward Europe) while some of us would give them a more realistic ranking. Thus giving us stuff like Mikhailov/Cleghorn in the bad order (coming from somebody that had Mikhailov in pretty high esteem...)
 

Howe Elbows 9

Registered User
Sep 16, 2007
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Pardon any grammatical errors in this post...

I think this project has worked out great, but since the topic of Soviet players has been mentioned, here's a link to something I've been working on:

http://spreadsheets.google.com/pub?key=pR2m2qFGQnyWxjMoHAY4HBQ

I think the europeans are underrepresented.

Canada produced many legends during the early days of the NHL as well as the early days of the sport itself, and still produce great players. Having said that, I consider a list that has 75% canadians to be somewhat biased. I understand why things have turned out this way, since information from NHL makes it easy to compare players to each other (at least during similar eras) and it has been a very competitive league for a very long time. I'll gladly listen to arguments as to why one nation is in fact that good at the sport of hockey.

While information from international tournaments (which you'll hopefully be able to view in the linked document) possibly suggests that Canada has the highest talent level among players from any country, I don't consider the gap between them and the rest of the world as significant as our list would make it out to be.

Simply put, I think we should try to look beyond the NHL and try to add more players who never had any experience from any North American leagues. Who would be the most deserving? I'm not sure, but judging by the discussions so far, I'm sure a lot of people here have some pretty good ideas...
 

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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You bring up an interesting point. He use competition as an argument against certain players (Bobrov) for example and try to compare him to Canadian players of the same timeframe. Obviously since hockey was played so much longer in Canda by that time the Canadians overall were better. However, we probably should be comparing non-NHL Europeans not against the NHL players of that same time period, but rather against the Canadian/NHL players from the era which corresponds with their own. We went to great lengths to not compare directly skill-to-skill because it's quite obvious that players today are simply better than players in the 20s or 30s. Guys like Bobrov of Johansson shouldn't be compared to the Canadians in that time period, but rather to Canadians of the same developmental period in their hockey history. If a guy like Sologubov could dominate when he did, isn't it likely that if he put him into North America in the same developmental period as Russian hockey was at that time he's be just as good? Are we being unfair to European countries by unintentionally penalizing them for starting their hockey programs in a later time period? If we assume that great early players in North America would be great if given all the modern advantages, should that apply to Europeans as well? Wouldn't they be just as great had they been allowed to develop in a culture where hockey was more advanced? Bobrov not dominating non-NHL Canadian players of his time shouldn't be the main reason to discount him. He was undoubtedly a great player, so wouldn't it reason that had he been raised in Canada where the knowledge of the sport and skill training was more advanced that he'd have also been one of the best there since he'd have access to a higher quality of schooling?

Just some things to consider. I think Shlomo has a point that this first list may have had some unintentional cultural bias built into it from a lack of more non-North American voters. Hopefully some of the questions I posed can be discussed and more of our European friends elect to take part in the update.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
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You bring up an interesting point. He use competition as an argument against certain players (Bobrov) for example and try to compare him to Canadian players of the same timeframe. Obviously since hockey was played so much longer in Canda by that time the Canadians overall were better. However, we probably should be comparing non-NHL Europeans not against the NHL players of that same time period, but rather against the Canadian/NHL players from the era which corresponds with their own. We went to great lengths to not compare directly skill-to-skill because it's quite obvious that players today are simply better than players in the 20s or 30s. Guys like Bobrov of Johansson shouldn't be compared to the Canadians in that time period, but rather to Canadians of the same developmental period in their hockey history. If a guy like Sologubov could dominate when he did, isn't it likely that if he put him into North America in the same developmental period as Russian hockey was at that time he's be just as good? Are we being unfair to European countries by unintentionally penalizing them for starting their hockey programs in a later time period? If we assume that great early players in North America would be great if given all the modern advantages, should that apply to Europeans as well? Wouldn't they be just as great had they been allowed to develop in a culture where hockey was more advanced? Bobrov not dominating non-NHL Canadian players of his time shouldn't be the main reason to discount him. He was undoubtedly a great player, so wouldn't it reason that had he been raised in Canada where the knowledge of the sport and skill training was more advanced that he'd have also been one of the best there since he'd have access to a higher quality of schooling?

Just some things to consider. I think Shlomo has a point that this first list may have had some unintentional cultural bias built into it from a lack of more non-North American voters. Hopefully some of the questions I posed can be discussed and more of our European friends elect to take part in the update.

You raise a very interesting point. There is certainly merit to the idea of comparing Bobrov to Russell Bowie and Dan Bain, instead of NHLers of the 1950's. I posted some thoughts on this in the voting thread:

There's something to be said about being the best player in a hockey-playing nation during any era, regardless of when it took place. People often talk about what a player might have done under different conditions. Going by this list, we've given the impression that players like Kharlamov and Tretiak would have been stars in the NHL if their situation didn't prevent them from leaving Europe.

Well, what might Bobrov have done if he wasn't the biggest fish in such a small pond? It's tough to get better if the only competition you have is of such low calibre. Training methods and coaching must have been highly suspect at the time, as well as facilities too, perhaps. Do you think any player in today's NHL would have been able to reach the NHL if they were only ever able to play hockey on a pond against neighbourhood children? Not likely, even though their natural abilities would be the same in both situations. But does that necessarily make them lesser players? Would Kharlamov have done any better than Bobrov if he was born 30 years earlier? Just some food for thought.
 

Lard_Lad

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May 12, 2003
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Allowing players a handicap based on the state of the game's development in their nation opens up a can of worms. Does that mean considering players who've dominated the lower levels of the IIHF championships playing for nations like China or New Zealand, where hockey is in its infancy? If you dropped the best Chinese player in 2008 onto the roster of the Winnipeg Victorias in 1895, might he not play as well as Dan Bain, so shouldn't he be judged by the same standard? That seems to be the argument being pursued here. What about regional differences within countries? Hockey in California developed much later than it did in New England, so do you adjust for that?

And how do you determine comparative levels of development when they're inherently incomparable? The Soviet teams of the 40's didn't develop in a vacuum, the benefited from the game's development in other countries prior to then. Swedish hockey had developed enough in the 1920's to win an Olympic silver, does that really mean that Tumba Johansson should be judged by harsher standards than Bobrov, his contemporary, because the Soviets started later?

If you really want to do this, the starting point would be coming up with a list that says which years in which country equate to what stage in the overall development in the game. You'll also need to identify the greatest players in each and every IIHF nation, from Canada down to Armenia - after all, it'd be unfair to limit the list just to traditional hockey powers because they happen to have been around longer.
 

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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Allowing players a handicap based on the state of the game's development in their nation opens up a can of worms. Does that mean considering players who've dominated the lower levels of the IIHF championships playing for nations like China or New Zealand, where hockey is in its infancy? If you dropped the best Chinese player in 2008 onto the roster of the Winnipeg Victorias in 1895, might he not play as well as Dan Bain, so shouldn't he be judged by the same standard? That seems to be the argument being pursued here. What about regional differences within countries? Hockey in California developed much later than it did in New England, so do you adjust for that?

And how do you determine comparative levels of development when they're inherently incomparable? The Soviet teams of the 40's didn't develop in a vacuum, the benefited from the game's development in other countries prior to then. Swedish hockey had developed enough in the 1920's to win an Olympic silver, does that really mean that Tumba Johansson should be judged by harsher standards than Bobrov, his contemporary, because the Soviets started later?

If you really want to do this, the starting point would be coming up with a list that says which years in which country equate to what stage in the overall development in the game. You'll also need to identify the greatest players in each and every IIHF nation, from Canada down to Armenia - after all, it'd be unfair to limit the list just to traditional hockey powers because they happen to have been around longer.

It definitely does open a can of worms, but we're alreayd doing essentially just that in comparing players across eras. It's pretty obvious that as great as Cyclone Taylor was, he's not as skilled or polished of a player as Sidney Crosby is. Heck, taken in a vacuum it'd be a stretch to include any player prior to the 50s. Why shouldn't this same contextual argument apply to players outside of North America as well?

Besides, these types of questions and discussions are at the heart of the project. It may be acan of worms, but it also may be a necessary one.
 

pappyline

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Jul 3, 2005
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It definitely does open a can of worms, but we're alreayd doing essentially just that in comparing players across eras. It's pretty obvious that as great as Cyclone Taylor was, he's not as skilled or polished of a player as Sidney Crosby is. Heck, taken in a vacuum it'd be a stretch to include any player prior to the 50s. Why shouldn't this same contextual argument apply to players outside of North America as well?

Besides, these types of questions and discussions are at the heart of the project. It may be acan of worms, but it also may be a necessary one.
In the case of Bobrov, you have to look at who he was playing against. In the 56 Olympics he finished tied for 3rd in scoring with Canadians Gary Theberge & Jack Mackenize and behind Canadians James Logan & Paul Knox. Have you ever heard of these guys?

Got to remember also that Bobrov had the benefit of 75+ years of hockey history. Hockey was not in its infancy when Bobrov played. Bowie & Bain didn't have that history to draw on. It is not coimparable at all.

Based on historical fact, IMO Canada having 75% (at least) of the top 100 makes perfect sense. To give players of other nations an advantage sounds like changing history and smells of trying to be politically correct.
 
Last edited:

Howe Elbows 9

Registered User
Sep 16, 2007
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It definitely does open a can of worms, but we're alreayd doing essentially just that in comparing players across eras. It's pretty obvious that as great as Cyclone Taylor was, he's not as skilled or polished of a player as Sidney Crosby is. Heck, taken in a vacuum it'd be a stretch to include any player prior to the 50s. Why shouldn't this same contextual argument apply to players outside of North America as well?

Besides, these types of questions and discussions are at the heart of the project. It may be acan of worms, but it also may be a necessary one.

That's exactly how I feel - it's necessary to open this can of worms for discussion. Even if no changes are made afterwards, it's an important issue to consider.
 

dcinroc

Registered User
Jun 24, 2008
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Taipei, Taiwan
It definitely does open a can of worms, but we're alreayd doing essentially just that in comparing players across eras. It's pretty obvious that as great as Cyclone Taylor was, he's not as skilled or polished of a player as Sidney Crosby is. Heck, taken in a vacuum it'd be a stretch to include any player prior to the 50s. Why shouldn't this same contextual argument apply to players outside of North America as well?

Besides, these types of questions and discussions are at the heart of the project. It may be acan of worms, but it also may be a necessary one.

If you were to go that route, then I think the first step would be to compile a seperate European top-100 list in order to get a better sense of where those players stand in relation to each other outside of an NHL/North American context.

It is only natural for even the most objective person to measure everything by that context with which he is most familiar. One way to get a better perspective is to step outside of that context altogeter. Remove North Americans from the picture and it may make the specifically European/Russian history more clear.
 

Lard_Lad

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May 12, 2003
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It definitely does open a can of worms, but we're alreayd doing essentially just that in comparing players across eras.

You're not really comparing them across eras, as I understood it, though - you're measuring them against the quality of play that existed in their era, and basing the rankings on that evaluation. That's a measurement that can be made relatively easily; we have statistics and other documentary evidence that shows how a given player compared to his contemporaries. Even when the evidence is sketchy, as it often is with pre-1960's European players, there's almost always enough to at least make an educated guess by doing things like examining how well they played against North Americans for whom a more definitive assessment can be made. In short, the material is available to make an evaluation that's reasonably objective.

But how do you evaluate "state of development" on a nation-by-nation (or even region-by-region) basis? There are no meaningful ways to compare the hockey played by Vsevolod Bobrov, a professional athlete in all but name, on a state-organized team surrounded by world-class athletes, with that played by Dan Bain in his off-work hours for a team he joined when it ran a newspaper ad offering tryouts. Fifty years and vast changes in the game separate them. The only slightly similarity is that hockey had been introduced to their respective countries a similar amount of time earlier. Yet it's suggested that they represent the same level of development? That's a purely subjective statement that can't be backed up by any concrete evidence.

To consider where this line of thinking takes you, consider Erich Kühnhackl. Czech-born and -trained, played his entire adult career in (and for) Germany. So, do you evaluate him according to the Czechoslovakian players of his generation, or the Germans? Or Helmut Balderis. Latvian, but played most of his career while Latvia was part of the USSR. Is he evalutated to a different standard than, say, a Russian of the same era like Sergei Makarov? Or Mike Buckna: star of the early Czechoslovakian game, pretty good senior league player and fringe NHL prospect when he returned to Canada, where he had learned to play in the first place.

And those countries - the game has been around for roughly the same amount of time in Germany and then-Czechoslovakia. But by Kühnhackl's time, the Czechoslovaks were clearly playing at a higher level. So if Kühnhackl is considered German, does he get evaluated to a softer standard than Milan Novy, or the same one? And Latvia was playing internationally more than two decades earlier than the USSR - does that mean the game was more advanced there, despite Russia clearly being the center of the Soviet hockey universe?

Those are the kind of calls you'll have to make to set up some standards for the list. And every time you make them, you'll be doing so based on much vaguer evidence than you used for evaluating players on the first go-round. Is that going to produce a list more meaningful than the first one?
 

FissionFire

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Dec 22, 2006
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I've begun posting voter lists. I will put up the randomly generated list number as well as the voters name with each list. I will be posting these in alphabetical order by poster name.

In case it's not clear, the overall comparisons are for rankings across every list upon which a player was ranked.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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Weird. Anyone else able to view that link?

I could try bumping it just to see what happens.
 

TheDevilMadeMe

Registered User
Aug 28, 2006
52,271
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Brooklyn
I have a feeling we may have a larger pool of voters second time around so you should not have to deal with the pain of keeping everyone on track.

You are probably correct. I, for one, am planning on participating next time. The main reason I didn't this time is because I felt like I didn't know enough about the old-timers, but I think I learned enough about them from this year's process to participate next time.
 

JSF1921

Registered User
Nov 8, 2006
448
0
I've been vocal throughout the course of this project about my opposition of the all-time format, and my stance on this issue hasn't changed. Reading the various arguments taught me a lot on the history of hockey in general which is a big plus, but I still maintain that comparing a player who played in the 1930s to one who played in the 1980s is completely absurd, no matter how much you dissect the numbers/eras. The hockey landscape is simply too different between such long periods of time for any kind of comparison to be made. Even the 'who dominated more' way of comparing players doesn't work here.

For what it's worth, if I were to re-do/update this project, I would use a top 10 or 20 of each era (or decade for simplicity's sake) format. This would eliminate cross-era comparisons, add some much needed simplicity to an already very subjective exercise and make discussions more interesting overall (an argument comparing Mike Bossy and Bryan Trottier is much more compelling to me than one comparing say, Peter Stastny and Milt Schmidt). A round of pre-voting would be necessary to determine in which decade eligible players should be voted in. For most players, this should be fairly obvious. Wayne Gretzky's career spanned two decades, but I don't think anyone will argue he should be ranked as an 80s player. As for players for who it isn't so obvious, simply have a vote. Regardless of which decade a player is voted in, the entire body of work for his career would be up for debate (so even though Gretzky would be voted as an 80s player, what he did in the 90s would still count obviously) For the voting round, a process similar to the one used for the top 100 list would do. Finally, eligible voters would be allowed to choose which decades they would like to participate in (I for one would participate in the 80s, 90s and 00s debates. Anything before that is before my time).

My $0.02.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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As of 5:31pm EST that link still doesn't work for me (not sure if it was bumped yet or not).

It's been bumped - I added a post to the end of the thread, and I can see it at the top of the first page of this forum.

But as we've established - that doesn't necessarily mean that everyone can see it.
 

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