Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 2 (Back in the Habit)

[Michael Farkas]

Things to say...

- I voted.
- Bourque fell for me the most, Roy was my biggest riser I think...Crosby too...he's really good.
- Beliveau was one of the best backhand users that I've seen pre-expansion...hell, maybe even pre-Gretzky...like I've said, this is as complete of a player as there ever was...

 

[blogofmike]

You know, this trope that somehow an entire generation of Goaltenders who came of age during the 60's & early 70's, turning pro mid decade through the 80's were somehow "inferior" to all that came before & after is absolute Bollocks..... Thats right, so Never Mind the BLLCKS. Not buying. The period in question, really from 65 & the mandatory 2 Goalie Dressed Rule, 67/68 through 95 was an extraordinarily unique period of evolution in the history of the game, Fundamentally changed, Coaching, Style of Play, Equipment & Technological Innovations, Expansion, the huge influence of everything from International & Tournament Play, Rise of the WHA, Violent Propensities practiced & encouraged at the elite amateur & Jr. Levels or "proving grounds", on & on & on...

As I myself am a member of that Generation myself I do actually take offence, umbrage to the suggestion that goal scoring went way up "because Goalies of that Generation were Sieves". Gimme a Fu**'n break. Look at the root causes. Dont be playing the "Blame the Goalie" game around me Boys & Girls. The advent of the whar is now called "Pro-Fly" style/school of Goaltending along with the oversized equipment all developments that were required as the game evolved from one of Laneway to a Full Cycle Short Shift Game. Alterations to the Crease & other Rule Changes, moving the lines on the map... game in red hot flux.... Goalies of the era were excellent, some of the Greatest of All Time who grew up studying & learning from Legends, from former & or current pro's who starred in the NHL, AHL & elsewhere during hockeys post WW2 Golden Era.... So look at the root causes for the escalation in GAA's. Easy out in "Blaming the Goalie". Thats what uneducated neophyte Fans, idiot media pundits & reporters, irresponsible "not my fault" coaches & players do.

Indeed. There are lots of reasons that things became harder for goaltenders. More teams wanted to score to win, more offensive talent was available, offense was more creative, the goaltending numbers look worse than they are just as the offensive numbers look better, etc.

One of those dead horses I like to beat - More PPOs were given out. Even Playoff Superman Patrick Roy has a tough time with these once he goes to Colorado. His 1996 run is one of the best ever, partly because his team avoided PPOA. When they took a lot of penalties against the Vancouver Canucks, Playoff Roy was suddenly very beatable. 39 PPOA in 6 games is very high against a team that can score, and the most Roy faced that playoffs. By the Finals he was down to 17 PPOA in 4 games against a lower-powered offense that was more easily swallowed up by the Avs PK.

A new hypothesis (live horse to beat? Now I feel bad for horses...) is that there was too much talent when @Killion was around. Think about the expansion era, and how many guys stayed with the same team and how few goalies lost their jobs. The guys who played for the high save percentage teams posted by @ContrarianGoaltender could build a solid CV.

Bernie Parent had his job through 1979. Who had it after that? Pete Peeters for a few seasons, before they tried Pelle Lindbergh/Bob Froese, before obvious off-ice circumstances force a move to Bob Froese, and then Ron Hextall.

Don Edwards is Top 5 in AS voting for 5 straight years and sent packing, as the Sabres try out Bob Sauve, then Tom Barrasso. Ray Bourque's Bruins are playing musical chairs for almost the entire decade, until things settle with Lemelin/Moog.

Meanwhile Ed Giacomin brings nothing to the table after his five good years in New York, but he stays for years collecting wins on a good team despite being badly outplayed by Gilles Villemure. A lack of available bodies to replace him is probably what puts Giacomin in the HHOF.

Also, some eras are overrepresented in the HHOF. Though, perhaps, one of the better talent evaluation guys can tell me what an Ed Giacomin did that a John Vanbiesbrouck didn't, aside from "face easier shots" and even at his best, pad his stats against the AHL division (NHL.com - Stats). HHOF or no, there are 350+ Win goalies who started from 1980-83 and are arguably as good or better than low level HHOF guys like Ed Giacomin (Vernon/Barrasso/Moog/Vanbiesbrouck)

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Goodfellow's was probably the only legit Hart win. Pratt & Anderson won in War years. Gardiner's must have been some sort of lifetime achievement win (like Teeder Kennedy).

"1944 (2nd), 1946 (1st), 1949 (1st), 1952 (2nd). Nothing great about these seasons in an all-time sense."

Can't this be said for everyone in this group? How many of Doug Harvey's regular seasons were great in an all-time sense? Or Beliveau's? Or Bourque's?

7th.

I don't see what war years has to do with anything in this case...it's not like there weren't non-descript forwards who also had career years in the weakened league who the voters could have selected for the Hart. Why assume Gardiner's was a lifetime achievement award? It was his first year in the NHL, in fact. Would the voters in an eastern-based league really care that much about his career with Calgary in the western league?

You raise valid points about the other candidates. This is why simple all-star counting/trophy counting/anything counting has its pitfalls.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Voted. Roy was the only serious mover on my list. I also underrated Morenz on my original 120 list but he's still in the bottom half of this vote for me.

 

[Sentinel]

Things to say...

- I voted.
- Bourque fell for me the most, Roy was my biggest riser I think...Crosby too...he's really good.
- Beliveau was one of the best backhand users that I've seen pre-expansion...hell, maybe even pre-Gretzky...like I've said, this is as complete of a player as there ever was...

This might be the first post of yours that I like or agree with.

Beliveau is my original #6, Roy is my original #7.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I don't see what war years has to do with anything in this case...it's not like there weren't non-descript forwards who also had career years in the weakened league who the voters could have selected for the Hart. Why assume Gardiner's was a lifetime achievement award? It was his first year in the NHL, in fact. Would the voters in an eastern-based league really care that much about his career with Calgary in the western league?

You raise valid points about the other candidates. This is why simple all-star counting/trophy counting/anything counting has its pitfalls.

Seems that Gardiner played virtually all the minutes his Hart season except for penalties

 

[ted2019]

I had Hull in my top spot
Hasek was my top goalie and made my top 4
Shore keeps on falling and was last in this group.

 

[BadgerBruce]

A tip of the cap to those project participants who are seriously trying to remain objective and, at the same time, advocating their positions with such obvious passion.

I get the sense that most of you are now playing the waiting game — the last few ballots will soon enough be sent off and the next round will begin. This might be an opportune time for a personal anecdote that speaks to the respect I have for most of you.

A close friend and colleague of mine is a History of Cinema expert, one of the world’s “big guns” who actively participates in international projects that rank thespians, directors, films, etc. She can’t imagine undertaking her work without viewing the actual films, which likely date back to D.W. Griffith’s “The Birth of a Nation” in 1915. She’s able to evaluate Lillian Gish’s performance over 100 years ago with her own eyes, weigh it against Meryl Streep’s 21st century work, take historical circumstances into account, and offer a well-reasoned conclusion.

Just as participants in this project need to evaluate hockey players from multiple countries when one country, Canada, is historically dominant, my colleague needs to evaluate screen stars from multiple countries when one, the United States, is historically dominant.

Fascinatingly, she has told me many times that there is no doubt in her mind whatsoever that Meryl Streep is the “best” actress in history — a supremely gifted performer who is also the beneficiary of modern training methods. Yet, my friend ranks Swedish actress Ingrid Bergman (star of the 1940s) more highly after fully considering all of the historical circumstances. Many other scholars draw the same conclusion: Meryl Streep is empirically “better” but Ingrid Bergman is “greater.”

“Sort of like how Wayne Gretzky is empirically ‘better’ but Gordie Howe is greater?” I asked her.

“Gordie who?’ she replied.

Sigh.

Enjoy the project — your work here is valuable.

 

[solidmotion]

Meryl Streep is empirically “better” but Ingrid Bergman is “greater.”

eh, streep's a compiler and bergman's stats are inflated by working with great directors. now bette davis, there's a face you can set your watch to. and for peak value anybody who's anybody knows it's falconetti all the way.

 

[BadgerBruce]

eh, streep's a compiler and bergman's stats are inflated by working with great directors. now bette davis, there's a face you can set your watch to. and for peak value anybody who's anybody knows it's falconetti all the way.

If Falconetti had been any good, she would have left France and signed with an Original 8 studio in North America......

 

[sr edler]

Greta Garbo is a Hall of Famer.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Adjusting for era, Buster Keaton is a top-5 filmmaker of all time. Better than Chaplin for sure.

 

[VanIslander]

Longevity is important.

Ones who consistently performed at the highest level:

Alfred Hitchcock and Stanley Kubrick

 

[quoipourquoi]

I’ll probably have the new thread up tonight after the deadline - that way I don’t accidentally go down the rabbit hole of telling you all about my recurring nightmare that I’m going to be crushed to death by a crossbar when a net comes down on me like the Buster Keaton house spot.

 

[ChiTownPhilly]

Voted.

My Richard suffered a big drop.

My Richard stood strong.

Thought briefly about replacing it with a Howietzer...

 

[MXD]

All I want for next round is another netminder, should Hasek and Roy makes it this round. I'm taking for granted that Roy does pass at this point. Judging by this thread.

 

[bobholly39]

Id be shocked if Beliveau Hull and Roy dont all 3 pass tbh

Past that is pretty open though.

 

[solidmotion]

Adjusting for era, Buster Keaton is a top-5 filmmaker of all time. Better than Chaplin for sure.

yeah keaton shits all over chaplin and anyone who disagrees can haul ass back to the main board where they came from.

 

[Michael Farkas]

#NotMyRichard

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Id be shocked if Beliveau Hull and Roy dont all 3 pass tbh

Past that is pretty open though.

Support for Hull and Beliveau seems near-universal. I'd be surprised if they weren't 1/2 in this vote, in either order. I wouldn't bet the farm on any of the other 8 candidates, but if I had to guess...Harvey, Roy, and Crosby by the narrowest of margins over the Rocket.

I just hope there isn't complaining over the results. Because whatever they end up being, it will be justifiable based on the discussion. I feel the good and the bad of all the candidates was brought to light.

 

[Killion]

Greta Garbo is a Hall of Famer.

Please... I vant' to be alone Herr Ehhedler.... why dont you take your Bobskates out onto gas Bonkevaart.... tune up for the the Elfstedentocht... where you will once again be beaten by 3.5 yr olds in double runners... most amusing....... if sober, and the Cigarette Nazi's off-duty .... I will meet you at the Stadsherberg in Sneek, Terrace Bar Moron.... of course, all contingent upon the freeze up... meanwhile... just go away.... GTFO.

 

[GlitchMarner]

When will the voting results be disclosed?

 

[MXD]

When will the voting results be disclosed?

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...-voting-results.2564785/page-4#post-152002891

 

[GlitchMarner]

https://hfboards.mandatory.com/thre...-voting-results.2564785/page-4#post-152002891

Oh, okay. Thought there would be a new thread. Thanks.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

I don't see what war years has to do with anything in this case...it's not like there weren't non-descript forwards who also had career years in the weakened league who the voters could have selected for the Hart. Why assume Gardiner's was a lifetime achievement award? It was his first year in the NHL, in fact. Would the voters in an eastern-based league really care that much about his career with Calgary in the western league?

You raise valid points about the other candidates. This is why simple all-star counting/trophy counting/anything counting has its pitfalls.

Can I use goal counting?

544 goals, the most by any player when The Rocket retired. That's in the regular season, which is being characterized as comparatively poor for Richard.